Lessons learned from the college process

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

True but you could still get merit aid at a bunch of schools. $10-30 K merit aid is nothing to sneeze at.

[Anonymous]

Most seniors that I know through my own kid are pretty happy or wildly happy regarding where they got in. Large diverse urban public HS. Two girls who had the ivy or bust attitude are pretty disappointed at their choices although they both have at least one good offer. I don’t understand this and don’t know why their parents haven’t knocked some sense into them.

[Anonymous]

Know what your HS provides in terms of college counseling. Our (private) HS does an amazing job with college counseling. Friends in different schools had different experiences - some were good and some were really bad.

Be realistic. Our daughter is high stats. Absolutely could have had her head turned and been an Ivy or bust type of kid, but we saw how that attitude really hamstrung kids in the season before ours. We looked at a couple of Ivies and she loved Penn so we put it on her list to apply to if she did not get in to her in state ED choice.

There are prep companies that allow you to take a free SAT and ACT - take one of each and assess which test they feel most comfortable with. If you are going to do prep, prep one test. There is zero need to take both. Focus on one. Don’t take SAT subject tests unless an institution requires it - or if your kid got a low grade in a course, they could do a subject test to demonstrate capability and explain the low grade.

Spend time on the essay. Our school handles the common app essay in English during 4th quarter and in designated work days during 1st quarter senior year. Multiple rounds of teacher editing and peer editing make for a pretty tight essay.

The importance of class selection and good grades go without saying. Extra curriculars are important too. The kid should do stuff they like and they should be deeply involved progressively through HS. Sports, music, theater. clubs, religious involvement, scouts, etc. Use middle school to try out new stuff and then whittle it down to what the kid loves to do.

Do not think that pay to play academic or service programs in the summer have any advantage in admissions. They can be great for other reasons.

Pay attention to whether or not your school measures interest. UVA does not - don’t waste time interacting with them. If you know your school does, interact with them.

Follow college SM accounts - it can give you an overview of what is happening. We followed a bunch of SM accounts and found it really helpful

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the rejection from Stanford, Yale, and Harvard.

[Anonymous]

One thing my child (now a college freshman) learned from the process is that the way classmates talk about schools junior year and senior fall is very different than senior spring. I'm going to pass that on to my second child when the time comes--treat junior year and senior fall talk about colleges with the same reliability as 'locker room talk.' Friends that dissed a school in the fall are super excited about going there in the spring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

Or if you have run the NPC and filled out the forms honestly, which is something every family should do, it also does not apply.

____________________________

You need to understand the difference between financial aid (which need-based and requires applicants' families to fill out intrusive FASFA forms) and merit scholarships, which are awarded without reference to family income. Merit scholarships are tuition discounts, and all but the top 25 or so private schools award them as a matter of routine. You don't even have to ask.

At the supposedly elite schools, there aren't as a rule any "merit scholarships" but there are discounts. Here's how it works: There are basically two types of students attending these "elite" schools. One type comes from families wealthy enough, and willing, to pay full sticker price. The other type is the kid who needs financial aid. The money for that kid's financial aid comes from the families that pay full-price.

At all private residential colleges, the TRUE cost of attendance is roughly 1/2 of the published sticker price. So, the schools awarding merit scholarships simply discount their costs so that, on average, all students are paying the true cost.

At the "elite" residential colleges, the TRUE cost is roughly 1/2 the published sticker price. And, on average, the revenue per student is 1/2 the published sticker price. But the average revenue per student is attained, in effect, via a redistribution of income. Rich parents pay for their own kids to attend, and they also pay for kids from families who can't afford to pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

Or if you have run the NPC and filled out the forms honestly, which is something every family should do, it also does not apply.

____________________________

You need to understand the difference between financial aid (which need-based and requires applicants' families to fill out intrusive FASFA forms) and merit scholarships, which are awarded without reference to family income. Merit scholarships are tuition discounts, and all but the top 25 or so private schools award them as a matter of routine. You don't even have to ask.

At the supposedly elite schools, there aren't as a rule any "merit scholarships" but there are discounts. Here's how it works: There are basically two types of students attending these "elite" schools. One type comes from families wealthy enough, and willing, to pay full sticker price. The other type is the kid who needs financial aid. The money for that kid's financial aid comes from the families that pay full-price.

At all private residential colleges, the TRUE cost of attendance is roughly 1/2 of the published sticker price. So, the schools awarding merit scholarships simply discount their costs so that, on average, all students are paying the true cost.

At the "elite" residential colleges, the TRUE cost is roughly 1/2 the published sticker price. And, on average, the revenue per student is 1/2 the published sticker price. But the average revenue per student is attained, in effect, via a redistribution of income. Rich parents pay for their own kids to attend, and they also pay for kids from families who can't afford to pay.

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry for the rejection from Stanford, Yale, and Harvard.

Not the OP but no one from Wilson HS got into Stanford this year (early or regular).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

Or if you have run the NPC and filled out the forms honestly, which is something every family should do, it also does not apply.

____________________________

You need to understand the difference between financial aid (which need-based and requires applicants' families to fill out intrusive FASFA forms) and merit scholarships, which are awarded without reference to family income. Merit scholarships are tuition discounts, and all but the top 25 or so private schools award them as a matter of routine. You don't even have to ask.

At the supposedly elite schools, there aren't as a rule any "merit scholarships" but there are discounts. Here's how it works: There are basically two types of students attending these "elite" schools. One type comes from families wealthy enough, and willing, to pay full sticker price. The other type is the kid who needs financial aid. The money for that kid's financial aid comes from the families that pay full-price.

At all private residential colleges, the TRUE cost of attendance is roughly 1/2 of the published sticker price. So, the schools awarding merit scholarships simply discount their costs so that, on average, all students are paying the true cost.

At the "elite" residential colleges, the TRUE cost is roughly 1/2 the published sticker price. And, on average, the revenue per student is 1/2 the published sticker price. But the average revenue per student is attained, in effect, via a redistribution of income. Rich parents pay for their own kids to attend, and they also pay for kids from families who can't afford to pay.

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

Or if you have run the NPC and filled out the forms honestly, which is something every family should do, it also does not apply.

____________________________

You need to understand the difference between financial aid (which need-based and requires applicants' families to fill out intrusive FASFA forms) and merit scholarships, which are awarded without reference to family income. Merit scholarships are tuition discounts, and all but the top 25 or so private schools award them as a matter of routine. You don't even have to ask.

At the supposedly elite schools, there aren't as a rule any "merit scholarships" but there are discounts. Here's how it works: There are basically two types of students attending these "elite" schools. One type comes from families wealthy enough, and willing, to pay full sticker price. The other type is the kid who needs financial aid. The money for that kid's financial aid comes from the families that pay full-price.

At all private residential colleges, the TRUE cost of attendance is roughly 1/2 of the published sticker price. So, the schools awarding merit scholarships simply discount their costs so that, on average, all students are paying the true cost.

At the "elite" residential colleges, the TRUE cost is roughly 1/2 the published sticker price. And, on average, the revenue per student is 1/2 the published sticker price. But the average revenue per student is attained, in effect, via a redistribution of income. Rich parents pay for their own kids to attend, and they also pay for kids from families who can't afford to pay.

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

What a beautiful skill, to be able to just completely ignore the actual data, and double down with "betcha" and "maybe".

An easy google shows 17% of Harvard students get pell grants

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your observations OP. I have a junior in HS. Hoping I can manage expectations. It seems incredibly tough out there.

And never apply anywhere ED. That just telegraphs a willingness to pay more than you would otherwise have to pay.

If your family income is such that there's no way in hell you'll get financial aid, this advice does not apply.

Or if you have run the NPC and filled out the forms honestly, which is something every family should do, it also does not apply.

____________________________

You need to understand the difference between financial aid (which need-based and requires applicants' families to fill out intrusive FASFA forms) and merit scholarships, which are awarded without reference to family income. Merit scholarships are tuition discounts, and all but the top 25 or so private schools award them as a matter of routine. You don't even have to ask.

At the supposedly elite schools, there aren't as a rule any "merit scholarships" but there are discounts. Here's how it works: There are basically two types of students attending these "elite" schools. One type comes from families wealthy enough, and willing, to pay full sticker price. The other type is the kid who needs financial aid. The money for that kid's financial aid comes from the families that pay full-price.

At all private residential colleges, the TRUE cost of attendance is roughly 1/2 of the published sticker price. So, the schools awarding merit scholarships simply discount their costs so that, on average, all students are paying the true cost.

At the "elite" residential colleges, the TRUE cost is roughly 1/2 the published sticker price. And, on average, the revenue per student is 1/2 the published sticker price. But the average revenue per student is attained, in effect, via a redistribution of income. Rich parents pay for their own kids to attend, and they also pay for kids from families who can't afford to pay.

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

What a beautiful skill, to be able to just completely ignore the actual data, and double down with "betcha" and "maybe".

An easy google shows 17% of Harvard students get pell grants

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs. The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

What a beautiful skill, to be able to just completely ignore the actual data, and double down with "betcha" and "maybe".

An easy google shows 17% of Harvard students get pell grants

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs. The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

One at a time:

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs.

Please show your evidence, and don't forget the most important part - how Harvard and ivy league schools differ from other colleges. When you look at the actual data, LIKE THAT POSTED ABOVE, you'll see Harvard is cheaper for most families and how a much larger percentage of Harvard (and other elites) students get need based aid than those at most other colleges.

The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

That's not the real question to anyone except you.

BTW, I am a full pay Ivy parent, and feel extremely, extremely lucky to be so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

What a beautiful skill, to be able to just completely ignore the actual data, and double down with "betcha" and "maybe".

An easy google shows 17% of Harvard students get pell grants

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs. The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

One at a time:

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs.

Please show your evidence, and don't forget the most important part - how Harvard and ivy league schools differ from other colleges. When you look at the actual data, LIKE THAT POSTED ABOVE, you'll see Harvard is cheaper for most families and how a much larger percentage of Harvard (and other elites) students get need based aid than those at most other colleges.

The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

That's not the real question to anyone except you.

BTW, I am a full pay Ivy parent, and feel extremely, extremely lucky to be so.

You should get a charitable deduction for the portion of your billing that subsidizes someone else's kid. Bring it up with your congressman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you the same guy from the Ivy thread who stopped there when the evidence was posted showing your claim is false?

Regardless, it is, and here is the evidence again:

the school reports that about 70% of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid, and claims that students whose parents make less than $65,000 are not expected to contribute any funds, and that “90% of American families would pay the same or less to send their children to Harvard as they would a state school.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-...hat-students-actually-pay.html

You are making the point for me, Holmes. Now, go check to see how may Harvard undergraduates qualify for Pell grants. I'll betcha it's 10% or less.

Where do you think the dough comes from to subsidize the Harvard kids who can't pay full price? Do you think it grows on trees in Harvard Square?

This is nothing more than an income redistribution problem: How many full-pay students do we need to admit in order to be able to subsidize, to some extent or another, the rest of the students we admit? Maybe the answer is 30%. So, we get 30% to pay full freight, and that allows us to subsidize the others -- some modestly, some moderately, a few lavishly -- such that we maintain an average revenue per student equal to approximately 1/2 our published sticker price.

There's a whole new quasi-science devoted to this kind of thing. It's called enrollment management.

What a beautiful skill, to be able to just completely ignore the actual data, and double down with "betcha" and "maybe".

An easy google shows 17% of Harvard students get pell grants

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs. The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

One at a time:

No need for pettifoggery. The point remains: it's income redistribution that makes possible the revenue model Harvard employs.

Please show your evidence, and don't forget the most important part - how Harvard and ivy league schools differ from other colleges. When you look at the actual data, LIKE THAT POSTED ABOVE, you'll see Harvard is cheaper for most families and how a much larger percentage of Harvard (and other elites) students get need based aid than those at most other colleges.

The real question is this: what are the moral implications of using marketing cache (and the insecurity of the targets of the marketing hype) to induce some to subsidize others -- when, as many have noted, Harvard is rich enough that it needn't charge anyone any tuition?

That's not the real question to anyone except you.

BTW, I am a full pay Ivy parent, and feel extremely, extremely lucky to be so.

You should get a charitable deduction for the portion of your billing that subsidizes someone else's kid. Bring it up with your congressman.

What part of "feel extremely, extremely lucky to be so" was unclear?

[Anonymous]

I realize I don’t know anything about legacies.

I thought legacy applied mostly for Undergraduate degree..
But does the idea of legacy also apply for graduate School?

Parents only?
What about grandparents?
Aunts/Uncles?