Why are so many families interested in Dual Language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's sad to see a random non-parent with brief interaction with DCPS and no better way to fill their time then to post on a parenting message board, and who also has no global perspective.

There fixed it for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is my take on why is it so widely desired in DC..

All parents want a good education for their children. May affordable neighborhoods in DC do not have good schools. Language immersion has been a means to draw potentially high performing students (children from high SES families) into schools in transitioning neighborhoods and charters schools. Parents like it because they see a way that their children will be challenged even if the broad population in a particular school is somewhat unknown. It is a means to self-select your children's peers.

More broadly in the DC region it is a multi-cultural area, many people have travelled broadly and they see the benefit of being bilingual and want that for their kids.

My kids did not go to a dual language elementary school, I tried in the lottery but was not successful and ultimately we had a strong school path for them so I did not lose any sleep about it.. They started a foreign language in 6th grade (at Deal). One chose Spanish and one chose French. We let them choose what interests them, I do not burden my children with what I think will give them a corporate advantage later in life. My children have been exposed to many international families as their peers in school and friends and they see the value of speaking multiple languages.

My advice to OP. No need to overthink it. Also, wait a while to have kids, you are very young to be married already, do not rush things.

This. The language immersion charters offer a better peer group than the crappy DCPS schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, and the brain development research gives the parents a "legitimate reason" for choosing the school instead of just fleeing their IB DCPS. There are a few exceptions, but that's the reason for 99% of families at the language immersion schools if they're being honest.

That's why these language immersion charters get so few students from the strong WOTP school boundaries.

OP, one thing to look at with your fiancee is what you give up at each school to get the language. At our HRC DCI feeder, the ELA is really suffering. They also do a terrible job with special needs and advanced kids. If you don't have an average neurotypical kid, then I recommend to stay away from charters. It's been a disaster for our advanced SN kids (this is more common than you might think). Charters also have very little oversight. There are layers of oversight for DCPS schools, but the charter school board has been clear that they don't get involved with any issues unless there's fraud (embezzlement etc) so there's no help there.

The parent association basically does fund raising and a little bit of infomercial type stuff. They're shills for the admin and don't really advocate for parents. I think most charters are this way. It's very different from the strong WOTP DCPS schools that have a strong parent group to advocate. After being in both systems, I strongly recommend moving in boundary for good schools for ES, MS, and HS (DC or suburbs). The families will stay for the schools and you'll have a strong community.

It’s obvious you are making broad statements without true experience. The parent association at our charter is very active and has much influence on an administration that is open to listening and working with parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I strongly disagree with the disparagement of Spanish, I share OP's confusion as to why dual language is such an obsession in DC. Yes, there are some studies that show it can have a positive impact on brain development. There's also literature showing the educational focuses on STEM, arts/music, social emotional learning, etc. can have positive impacts on brain development. Yet I hear so many more people clamoring for dual language programs than anything else. My guess is it's a combination of limited paths through middle school from non-dual language programs, excitement over an educational trend, and maybe a little fear from affluent and/or white families about demographics in some schools.

If you look at the trajectory of language translation technology its abundantly clear that multi-lingualism is not going to be a necessary 21st century skill. So if you love languages or your family is multi-lingual, great. But I for one would much rather my kid learn to code simultaneous translation apps or follow his passion for art than spend all that mental space on immersion.

I'm a software developer, and I gotta say -- being multilingual is a skill that's always going to be useful. The value of being multi-lingual is not that it allows you to read street signs or menus. The value is being able to make connections with people and fully interact with them. Mono-lingual people arguing against being multilingual are kinda like a person with hearing impairment arguing that hearing is useless --- sure, you can get through life without it, but people who can hear know its value.

I've studied 5 languages with very different levels of mastery, and my enjoyment of travel varies in direct relation to how well I speak the language of the country where I'm traveling. And of course, the way I'm treated varies enormously with my mastery of the language. Not that people are rude of mean when I don't speak their language, but people are incredibly appreciative and warm when you've made the effort to learn their language and try to address them in culturally appropriate ways.

Even in DC, being able to chat in Arabic with the guy at my gym whose English is weak is nice, as is being able to fully participate in conversations with the wonderful and accomplished NGO folks socializing in Spanish at a friend's birthday party. Hell, even just watching Netflix -- the show I'm currently watching is set in Germany, and half the dialog is in German with subtitles. It's a different experience watching that show and understanding the German than it would be if I had no idea what the German dialog was saying and read the subtitles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I strongly disagree with the disparagement of Spanish, I share OP's confusion as to why dual language is such an obsession in DC. Yes, there are some studies that show it can have a positive impact on brain development. There's also literature showing the educational focuses on STEM, arts/music, social emotional learning, etc. can have positive impacts on brain development. Yet I hear so many more people clamoring for dual language programs than anything else. My guess is it's a combination of limited paths through middle school from non-dual language programs, excitement over an educational trend, and maybe a little fear from affluent and/or white families about demographics in some schools.

If you look at the trajectory of language translation technology its abundantly clear that multi-lingualism is not going to be a necessary 21st century skill. So if you love languages or your family is multi-lingual, great. But I for one would much rather my kid learn to code simultaneous translation apps or follow his passion for art than spend all that mental space on immersion.

I'm a software developer, and I gotta say -- being multilingual is a skill that's always going to be useful. The value of being multi-lingual is not that it allows you to read street signs or menus. The value is being able to make connections with people and fully interact with them. Mono-lingual people arguing against being multilingual are kinda like a person with hearing impairment arguing that hearing is useless --- sure, you can get through life without it, but people who can hear know its value.

I've studied 5 languages with very different levels of mastery, and my enjoyment of travel varies in direct relation to how well I speak the language of the country where I'm traveling. And of course, the way I'm treated varies enormously with my mastery of the language. Not that people are rude of mean when I don't speak their language, but people are incredibly appreciative and warm when you've made the effort to learn their language and try to address them in culturally appropriate ways.

Even in DC, being able to chat in Arabic with the guy at my gym whose English is weak is nice, as is being able to fully participate in conversations with the wonderful and accomplished NGO folks socializing in Spanish at a friend's birthday party. Hell, even just watching Netflix -- the show I'm currently watching is set in Germany, and half the dialog is in German with subtitles. It's a different experience watching that show and understanding the German than it would be if I had no idea what the German dialog was saying and read the subtitles.

100% agree with software developer. My career is very obviously tied to my knowledge of 3 languages, but even if this were not so, I don't think I could disparage someone's interest in bi/multi-lingualism. I don't think OP is a troll, just young.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The point was will I get paid a lot more for knowing Spanish? No, even if I were to change my profession.
Some people really take things so personally. I’m seriously only wondering why DC parents literally go crazy for dual language!

I don't even know why I'm bothering jumping in on this bc OP seems to just be bored and kind of trying to stoke the fire at a time of heightened anxiety for parents with kids entering the lottery, but FWIW there are lots of jobs where being bilingual English/Spanish pays more and opens up opportunities. I'm in healthcare. It's a premium. As if making more money is the only value added of learning another language that a large portion of your population speaks...but you can't really argue that it isn't valuable in business in the US. Not everybody is going into trade opportunities with China, OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is my take on why is it so widely desired in DC..

All parents want a good education for their children. May affordable neighborhoods in DC do not have good schools. Language immersion has been a means to draw potentially high performing students (children from high SES families) into schools in transitioning neighborhoods and charters schools. Parents like it because they see a way that their children will be challenged even if the broad population in a particular school is somewhat unknown. It is a means to self-select your children's peers.

More broadly in the DC region it is a multi-cultural area, many people have travelled broadly and they see the benefit of being bilingual and want that for their kids.

My kids did not go to a dual language elementary school, I tried in the lottery but was not successful and ultimately we had a strong school path for them so I did not lose any sleep about it.. They started a foreign language in 6th grade (at Deal). One chose Spanish and one chose French. We let them choose what interests them, I do not burden my children with what I think will give them a corporate advantage later in life. My children have been exposed to many international families as their peers in school and friends and they see the value of speaking multiple languages.

My advice to OP. No need to overthink it. Also, wait a while to have kids, you are very young to be married already, do not rush things.

This. The language immersion charters offer a better peer group than the crappy DCPS schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, and the brain development research gives the parents a "legitimate reason" for choosing the school instead of just fleeing their IB DCPS. There are a few exceptions, but that's the reason for 99% of families at the language immersion schools if they're being honest.

That's why these language immersion charters get so few students from the strong WOTP school boundaries.

OP, one thing to look at with your fiancee is what you give up at each school to get the language. At our HRC DCI feeder, the ELA is really suffering. They also do a terrible job with special needs and advanced kids. If you don't have an average neurotypical kid, then I recommend to stay away from charters. It's been a disaster for our advanced SN kids (this is more common than you might think). Charters also have very little oversight. There are layers of oversight for DCPS schools, but the charter school board has been clear that they don't get involved with any issues unless there's fraud (embezzlement etc) so there's no help there.

The parent association basically does fund raising and a little bit of infomercial type stuff. They're shills for the admin and don't really advocate for parents. I think most charters are this way. It's very different from the strong WOTP DCPS schools that have a strong parent group to advocate. After being in both systems, I strongly recommend moving in boundary for good schools for ES, MS, and HS (DC or suburbs). The families will stay for the schools and you'll have a strong community.

You rock, PP. You explain why we bailed on YY to a T, although we speak Chinese at home. Very few immersion parents come to these boards with half your smarts.

We scraped together the dough to move WOTP. Several years later, so glad we took the plunge.

[Anonymous]

I think this OP doesn't realize how privileged she is to know 3 languages, 2 of them fluently. This is sad. A person growing up bilingual in this country should be constantly made aware of the benefits she is receiving, be they soft skills as mentioned by some, potential for higher earnings, ability to travel more easily, or potential cognitive benefits.

The benefits are so huge, I am sad her parents didn't really let her know what they are or she didn't hear them. This is a good message for us parents of kids in dual language. It may not be obvious to our kids why we are doing this to them. I hope that my values are instilled in my children, which includes intercultural communication (and basic empathy for all people which grows through such experiences). THAT is why my children are in dual language, and thanks for the reminder to make sure they know that as they grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is my take on why is it so widely desired in DC..

All parents want a good education for their children. May affordable neighborhoods in DC do not have good schools. Language immersion has been a means to draw potentially high performing students (children from high SES families) into schools in transitioning neighborhoods and charters schools. Parents like it because they see a way that their children will be challenged even if the broad population in a particular school is somewhat unknown. It is a means to self-select your children's peers.

More broadly in the DC region it is a multi-cultural area, many people have travelled broadly and they see the benefit of being bilingual and want that for their kids.

My kids did not go to a dual language elementary school, I tried in the lottery but was not successful and ultimately we had a strong school path for them so I did not lose any sleep about it.. They started a foreign language in 6th grade (at Deal). One chose Spanish and one chose French. We let them choose what interests them, I do not burden my children with what I think will give them a corporate advantage later in life. My children have been exposed to many international families as their peers in school and friends and they see the value of speaking multiple languages.

My advice to OP. No need to overthink it. Also, wait a while to have kids, you are very young to be married already, do not rush things.

This. The language immersion charters offer a better peer group than the crappy DCPS schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, and the brain development research gives the parents a "legitimate reason" for choosing the school instead of just fleeing their IB DCPS. There are a few exceptions, but that's the reason for 99% of families at the language immersion schools if they're being honest.

That's why these language immersion charters get so few students from the strong WOTP school boundaries.

OP, one thing to look at with your fiancee is what you give up at each school to get the language. At our HRC DCI feeder, the ELA is really suffering. They also do a terrible job with special needs and advanced kids. If you don't have an average neurotypical kid, then I recommend to stay away from charters. It's been a disaster for our advanced SN kids (this is more common than you might think). Charters also have very little oversight. There are layers of oversight for DCPS schools, but the charter school board has been clear that they don't get involved with any issues unless there's fraud (embezzlement etc) so there's no help there.

The parent association basically does fund raising and a little bit of infomercial type stuff. They're shills for the admin and don't really advocate for parents. I think most charters are this way. It's very different from the strong WOTP DCPS schools that have a strong parent group to advocate. After being in both systems, I strongly recommend moving in boundary for good schools for ES, MS, and HS (DC or suburbs). The families will stay for the schools and you'll have a strong community.

Charter parent associations who advocate for families are generally told by admins to shut up. Our DCI feeder didn't even bother to send any materials home in the target language. Not tough to guess which school. When we complained to the parent association and admins and were told by both that producing materials for families in the target language wasn't a priority and wasn't necessary. Meanwhile, at our house, my mother, who provides most of our childcare and homework supervision, although her spoken and written English is weak, struggled to deal with school materials. It was time to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this OP doesn't realize how privileged she is to know 3 languages, 2 of them fluently. This is sad. A person growing up bilingual in this country should be constantly made aware of the benefits she is receiving, be they soft skills as mentioned by some, potential for higher earnings, ability to travel more easily, or potential cognitive benefits.

The benefits are so huge, I am sad her parents didn't really let her know what they are or she didn't hear them. This is a good message for us parents of kids in dual language. It may not be obvious to our kids why we are doing this to them. I hope that my values are instilled in my children, which includes intercultural communication (and basic empathy for all people which grows through such experiences). THAT is why my children are in dual language, and thanks for the reminder to make sure they know that as they grow up.

The benefits are huge when the kids actually learn to speak the language decently. This isn't always the case in DC charter immersion programs. You know this if you're a native speaker of any of the DCI target languages who tries to speak to various upper grades kids in your language around your neighborhood. The results can be pretty grim considering that some of these kids have been in 50% immersion for up to 8 years. Some of them even go through ECE in 100% immersion. There's an awful lot of pretending going on about how well many charter immersion students can actually communicate in the target language. Less so at Oyster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t really get it. I happened to grow up bilingual (English/Japanese) and I know the research in terms of benefits for the mind. However Spanish? It’s not even the language of business. It’s also not like the US majority will be dominant Spanish in this lifetime. Mandarin I can kinda see why since it can be very lucrative and it’s a tough language. Spanish I picked up in middle school-HS (started classes in 6th) but I am from CA and had plenty of friends to practice with. So I am trilingual.

Not a parent yet, but 21y/o teacher and my fiancé is already talking about this dual language business. Haha. I had no formal teaching in Japanese, yet I am fluent. Idk I’d rather go Montessori.

I also used to be a para at a school in DC w/dual language and the PK-K teachers were undoubtedly excellent....the rest pretty mediocre. Parents do not get to see the drama a school really has...I’ve seen this school mentioned and I always want to scream, waaaaiiiit. Perhaps my upbringing and experience at a school has caused me some bias lol.



Thoughts?

OP, please show your post to your fiancé. I'm certain he would appreciate knowing your views on this--before your wedding, ideally, and certainly before you procreate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point was will I get paid a lot more for knowing Spanish? No, even if I were to change my profession.
Some people really take things so personally. I’m seriously only wondering why DC parents literally go crazy for dual language!

I don't even know why I'm bothering jumping in on this bc OP seems to just be bored and kind of trying to stoke the fire at a time of heightened anxiety for parents with kids entering the lottery, but FWIW there are lots of jobs where being bilingual English/Spanish pays more and opens up opportunities. I'm in healthcare. It's a premium. As if making more money is the only value added of learning another language that a large portion of your population speaks...but you can't really argue that it isn't valuable in business in the US. Not everybody is going into trade opportunities with China, OP

+1000. I am also in healthcare and huge advantage and more opportunities. But most importantly, it would make my job easier and things don’t get lost in translation thru a phone interpreter. I have been in healthcare for over 15 years. I can count on 1 hand how many times I needed an Mandarin interpreter. I have lost track of the hundreds and hundreds of times I needed a Spanish interpreter.

Knowing what I know now, wished I had taken Spanish instead of French from middle school thru high school.

I would think in any service oriented field in this country with direct interaction with people - medicine/healthcare, law, marketing, business, etc..- knowing Spanish would be a very helpful skill to have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this OP doesn't realize how privileged she is to know 3 languages, 2 of them fluently. This is sad. A person growing up bilingual in this country should be constantly made aware of the benefits she is receiving, be they soft skills as mentioned by some, potential for higher earnings, ability to travel more easily, or potential cognitive benefits.

The benefits are so huge, I am sad her parents didn't really let her know what they are or she didn't hear them. This is a good message for us parents of kids in dual language. It may not be obvious to our kids why we are doing this to them. I hope that my values are instilled in my children, which includes intercultural communication (and basic empathy for all people which grows through such experiences). THAT is why my children are in dual language, and thanks for the reminder to make sure they know that as they grow up.

The benefits are huge when the kids actually learn to speak the language decently. This isn't always the case in DC charter immersion programs. You know this if you're a native speaker of any of the DCI target languages who tries to speak to various upper grades kids in your language around your neighborhood. The results can be pretty grim considering that some of these kids have been in 50% immersion for up to 8 years. Some of them even go through ECE in 100% immersion. There's an awful lot of pretending going on about how well many charter immersion students can actually communicate in the target language. Less so at Oyster.

While you may be right, and parents should push admins to make sure strong learning is happening in each language, exposure itself can be a fantastic ground for later proficiency. I didn't learn Spanish until college, but I'd like to have had the base for it developed much earlier and especially the accent. Instead took French which I also started too late to get any kind of respectable accent, in my once a week classes for fun in elementary school. I think simply getting that accent is a bigger deal than you realize, even if it's still clearly non-native. Developing the ear, much like music class, is great.

So, yes we should push for better, but also this answers OP's question about why we "go nuts" for DL.

Also - in order to get any better, we need to change rules around recruitment into charters to prioritize native speakers and improve the balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this OP doesn't realize how privileged she is to know 3 languages, 2 of them fluently. This is sad. A person growing up bilingual in this country should be constantly made aware of the benefits she is receiving, be they soft skills as mentioned by some, potential for higher earnings, ability to travel more easily, or potential cognitive benefits.

The benefits are so huge, I am sad her parents didn't really let her know what they are or she didn't hear them. This is a good message for us parents of kids in dual language. It may not be obvious to our kids why we are doing this to them. I hope that my values are instilled in my children, which includes intercultural communication (and basic empathy for all people which grows through such experiences). THAT is why my children are in dual language, and thanks for the reminder to make sure they know that as they grow up.

The benefits are huge when the kids actually learn to speak the language decently. This isn't always the case in DC charter immersion programs. You know this if you're a native speaker of any of the DCI target languages who tries to speak to various upper grades kids in your language around your neighborhood. The results can be pretty grim considering that some of these kids have been in 50% immersion for up to 8 years. Some of them even go through ECE in 100% immersion. There's an awful lot of pretending going on about how well many charter immersion students can actually communicate in the target language. Less so at Oyster.

While you may be right, and parents should push admins to make sure strong learning is happening in each language, exposure itself can be a fantastic ground for later proficiency. I didn't learn Spanish until college, but I'd like to have had the base for it developed much earlier and especially the accent. Instead took French which I also started too late to get any kind of respectable accent, in my once a week classes for fun in elementary school. I think simply getting that accent is a bigger deal than you realize, even if it's still clearly non-native. Developing the ear, much like music class, is great.

So, yes we should push for better, but also this answers OP's question about why we "go nuts" for DL.

Also - in order to get any better, we need to change rules around recruitment into charters to prioritize native speakers and improve the balance.

I would love this to happen. I think it would help Stokes' French program as well. I encounter tons of francophone West African families in this area, probably more than Europeans who speak French, and a good handful attend our IB. I would love if they could have a preference at Stokes and DCI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you lived in Barcelona and didn't realize you were frequently hearing Catalan not Spanish, I have little hope for the rest of your analysis.

I didn’t get into the politics there. Though it was hard not to since people there are very passionate.
And honestly I was forced into Spanish. My mother and father thought it’d be more beneficial than French or Greek, which were the other languages my middle school was offering at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I strongly disagree with the disparagement of Spanish, I share OP's confusion as to why dual language is such an obsession in DC. Yes, there are some studies that show it can have a positive impact on brain development. There's also literature showing the educational focuses on STEM, arts/music, social emotional learning, etc. can have positive impacts on brain development. Yet I hear so many more people clamoring for dual language programs than anything else. My guess is it's a combination of limited paths through middle school from non-dual language programs, excitement over an educational trend, and maybe a little fear from affluent and/or white families about demographics in some schools.

If you look at the trajectory of language translation technology its abundantly clear that multi-lingualism is not going to be a necessary 21st century skill. So if you love languages or your family is multi-lingual, great. But I for one would much rather my kid learn to code simultaneous translation apps or follow his passion for art than spend all that mental space on immersion.

I'm a software developer, and I gotta say -- being multilingual is a skill that's always going to be useful. The value of being multi-lingual is not that it allows you to read street signs or menus. The value is being able to make connections with people and fully interact with them. Mono-lingual people arguing against being multilingual are kinda like a person with hearing impairment arguing that hearing is useless --- sure, you can get through life without it, but people who can hear know its value.

I've studied 5 languages with very different levels of mastery, and my enjoyment of travel varies in direct relation to how well I speak the language of the country where I'm traveling. And of course, the way I'm treated varies enormously with my mastery of the language. Not that people are rude of mean when I don't speak their language, but people are incredibly appreciative and warm when you've made the effort to learn their language and try to address them in culturally appropriate ways.

Even in DC, being able to chat in Arabic with the guy at my gym whose English is weak is nice, as is being able to fully participate in conversations with the wonderful and accomplished NGO folks socializing in Spanish at a friend's birthday party. Hell, even just watching Netflix -- the show I'm currently watching is set in Germany, and half the dialog is in German with subtitles. It's a different experience watching that show and understanding the German than it would be if I had no idea what the German dialog was saying and read the subtitles.

I don’t think speaking other languages isn’t useful. I myself speak 3 and a little bit of Greek. And it’s very fun, I love going to Japan and people are surprised that I speak so well. Spanish I don’t get that surprise but it definitely makes people a little warmer since language is culture.

I agree with your statements, what is confusing to me is truly the attitudes of parents in DC about this. Which I’m starting to see why from the comments.