Engineering Major

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The irony is every engineer you talk to says they rarely use Calculus or Physics in their every day job. Yet these colleges weed out these kids based on those two courses

This is complete nonsense. Those who say that are probably in management.

Signed,

An Engineer

Programmers do not need calculus or physics. They actually don't need college.

I fixed your signature.

Programmers != engineers

It does now... computer engineering and requires calculus and there is lots of talk about letting go of that requirement.

computer engineering != computer science

Hey look it's an ISTJ.

Analysis paralysis

Sorry - ESTP w/high EQ.

And these are just basic facts. Difficult for some people.

Sure you are. You are exactly who Spearman was talking about.

1. computer engineering is not computer science.

2. 100% of engineers are not nerdy introverts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:What engineering programs are recommended where DC isn’t constantly worried about not making the cut. It sounds like Pitt is accommodating, any ithers?

No such thing. Engineering is a demanding major. If your kid cannot handle, it’s better to find out early than later. Also, that probably means your kid won’t enjoy career as an engineer. I would not push it.

The BS part of that is that a single trip-up freshman year means a person can't handle an entire career. There are just too many examples around of successful people who stumbled at the beginning.

Yes, engineering is demanding. And certainly some students should move on. But that doesn't change the facts:

* some schools are using the weed-out process differently than others.

* an engineering student with a 3.2 freshman year is very different from one with a 2.2. At most schools the 2.2 kid will probably need to move on or regroup. As for the 3.2 kid... at some schools the kid can move ahead to sophomore year and at others it is "thanks for all the money, now see ya."

And yes, there is a budget element - at one school I talked to in a state facing budget cuts, the state forced the school to increase the number of engineering students so they increased the number of freshman engineering students. but not sophomores.

And for a bunch of people claiming to be engineers (and have statistical training) - y'all seem oblivious to the fact that your GPA is endogenous. If you are at Brown and score at the 50th percentile on the calc exam, you probably get an A. If you are at many public engineering schools, you get a B-, if that.

Parents: read the portion of the school websites for CONTINUING students, and discuss some of the weed-out issues with your kid. I would much rather my kid be a mechanical engineer out of Pitt (even at full fees) than an economics major out of VT (a major he might choose after the weedout.)

Totally agree with this. This paper shows some of the strategies that many engineering programs are using to help students stay in engineering rather than try to weed them out:
https://www.asee.org/retention-project

A few excerpts of highlighted programs:

University of Maryland:
"Keystone is responsible for teaching many of the first and secondyear engineering courses. Students from many departments must take these courses to complete their degree requirements, as these serve as a foundation for their later discipline-specific coursework. Keystone also oversees a tutoring center, mentoring program, and undergraduate teaching fellow program."

Bucknell:
"Students who agree to be a part of the ESA participate in an ongoing program during the academic year that is focused on facilitating their transition to college, access to professional development opportunities, and improving their study and communication skills and fluency in the use of mathematics."

Wash U:
" Academic Support: Tutoring. Students may receive up to four hours per week of free one-on-one tutoring for each course, including math, chemistry and physics courses. Upperclassmen in strong academic standing are hired to be the tutors."

These schools realize that even bright students may need initial help to succeed in engineering.

[Anonymous]

Any kid who gets admitted to VT engineering is smart enough to do well. But not all will. The have to learn how to study differently than they did in high school and work hard. My oldest skated in high school, did well without having to hit the books and did not have good study habits. He really struggled freshman year at VT and did not get his 3.0 to get into his preferred major. He had to kick it way up sophomore year to up his grades and then got in. It was a good lesson for him. he graduated with a great job offer by October his senior year. My second at VT engineering always had to work hard for grades in high school so had much better study habits. And has a 3.5 after 3 semesters. I don’t really get the “avoid VT cus it does “weed out” comments - don’t you want your kid challenged to put forth their best?

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much for this last post. I was getting so scared about VT weed out that i was getting afraid to let my child apply there. It should be a match for my son and the price is right and the reputation is good. My son coasted only in elementary school, struggled in middle, and now in high school has learned how to study and be successful in really tough classes.

[Anonymous]

I was also looking at graduation rates fo VT engineering. Just less than 50 percent complete in 4 years. I think it was two thirds by 5 years. This may be typical, not sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was also looking at graduation rates fo VT engineering. Just less than 50 percent complete in 4 years. I think it was two thirds by 5 years. This may be typical, not sure.

It can be typical to Engineering departments/colleges because they are one of the groups that use co-ops the most. For example, my DC is an engineering major and last year he did a co-op from January-August, so he will graduate a semester later, but it will still only be 8 semesters. Many engineering classes are sequential so if you do not have your act together in the beginning or you need to take one class over- it can delay your graduation. Plus, most engineering programs have more required courses/credits needed for graduation and it just takes longer than other majors.

I have two children one is a math major an done is an engineering major. Both came into college with enough credits to be considered a sophomore. The math major could graduate a year early (in three years) fairly easily, but the engineering major only chance to graduate early was one semester and he would have had to take very specific classes in his freshman year (he missed one) and so it will take him 8 semesters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was also looking at graduation rates fo VT engineering. Just less than 50 percent complete in 4 years. I think it was two thirds by 5 years. This may be typical, not sure.

A number of engineering kids also do co-ops, so the 4-year grad rate is not a reflection of “can’t get it done in 4 years” exclusively. My son (CS) and his two room mates (ME) all did in 4 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks so much for this last post. I was getting so scared about VT weed out that i was getting afraid to let my child apply there. It should be a match for my son and the price is right and the reputation is good. My son coasted only in elementary school, struggled in middle, and now in high school has learned how to study and be successful in really tough classes.

PP, I hear ya. There are schools that would work for your kid besides VT. I don't know your financial situation, of course, but there are plenty of schools OOS where if your kid were good enough for VT your kid would be able to get enough merit to possibly make it worth considering. Think broadly and ask a ton of questions.

UMN-TC has some weed-out (they all do) but you don't get thrown into liberal arts (nothing is wrong with LA if you want to be there, but maybe the kid doesn't?). They also post a ton of good information about how their program works.

I heard nice things about Clarkson, (a school no one seems to think about but seems to be surprisingly good) but my kid wanted Urban.

[Anonymous]

My DD is in engineering at WashU and I noticed that the tutoring was referenced. She is doing well academically but has taken advantage of the free tutoring program almost every semester even now that she herself is a tutor in her strongest subjects. So she is tutoring kids in Differential Equations while she is getting tutoring in Material Sciences. It works really well I think to have an environment where it is somewhat expected that kids will do tutoring in the tough classes and there is no sense that only the failing kids do it. Overall it has been a supportive program with strong advising as well. But like most if not all engineering programs, there are a lot of the tests where almost no one passes and a good percentage of the kids who start in engineering do not stay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any kid who gets admitted to VT engineering is smart enough to do well. But not all will. The have to learn how to study differently than they did in high school and work hard. My oldest skated in high school, did well without having to hit the books and did not have good study habits. He really struggled freshman year at VT and did not get his 3.0 to get into his preferred major. He had to kick it way up sophomore year to up his grades and then got in. It was a good lesson for him. he graduated with a great job offer by October his senior year. My second at VT engineering always had to work hard for grades in high school so had much better study habits. And has a 3.5 after 3 semesters. I don’t really get the “avoid VT cus it does “weed out” comments - don’t you want your kid challenged to put forth their best?

Thanks for this comment. It sounds like your kids had great experiences and are doing well.

As for the part I bolded: The issue with weeding out is different from wanting them to put forth their best.

When schools are weeding out, sometimes it is the kids who should go, but at other schools they weed out enough kids that kids who would be perfectly good engineers, or even excel once classes were smaller never get the chance. Plus, a weedout environment changes the dynamic among the students. For some kids, this environment brings out their best, for others it brings out their worst. It also can vary from school to school what kind of advising they provide to the kids who are struggling. So we should all help our kids make the right choices for their goals, but also for the personal strengths and weaknesses they bring.

I know myself what it feels like to be nearly weeded out due to enrollment in a grad program for which I did not have proper preparation (don't ask me how I got in, because that is a good question). I survived, but barely, and have gone on to the professional life I wanted. However, I was scarred for decades from the experience and would prefer not to visit that on my child.

[Anonymous]

To PP- should have added... when my first was struggling , it never felt like he was being forced out. Advisor helped him on strategies to get his GPA up. VT has the resources to help students— but the student does have to seek them out. It is a academically rigorous courseload without doubt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The irony is every engineer you talk to says they rarely use Calculus or Physics in their every day job. Yet these colleges weed out these kids based on those two courses

This is complete nonsense. Those who say that are probably in management.

Signed,

An Engineer

Yep. I might do everything numerically, but it absolutely is physic and calculus.