GOP is against higher education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I would say by and large colleges and universities are far more manifest in progressive tendencies than they were say 20-30 years ago.

That is because the US has become more liberal and progressive compared to 30 years ago. So yes, compared to 30 years ago, colleges will appear even more progressive. I went to college in the early 90's.

clear difference between "accepting of transgender people", than forcing people to accept transgender people. We can encourage it, as we should, but colleges/universities are shirking their responsibility by ruling that it is so.

It's a college. They don't enforce it on the rest of the country. I think it's a bit over the top, but colleges are where young people experiment with their identity, come into their own, and they are certainly encouraged to question the "as is" dictates that society imposes. I'm not a huge fan of this push by colleges, but I realize that colleges are where a lot of progressive ideals come from. Where else can young people question their identity and find themselves freely, and without scorn? Do the extreme right have a right to express their ideas in colleges? Of course they do, but colleges don't necessarily have to give them the right to preach their hate speech which a lot of the extreme right do.

I would agree that there isn't a lot of freethinking going on in churches, but the way that modern progressive college/universities preach their idealism is bordering on a religious experience.

I would agree that far left is as much of a cult as the far right, however, they certainly don't question the legitimacy of science, so I prefer my kids be more exposed to the far left progressive ideas in colleges than the backwards thinking, anti-education views of the far right.

PP here, yes the US has become more liberal and progressive, at the expense of independent thought and critical thinking skills. Just look at the concept of intersectionality - a group identity based system of victim-hood classification that completely eliminates the experience of the individual, and irrationally arbitrary in its ranking of relative victim-hood: is a transgender man more of a victim than a black female? Look at the concept of safe space as practiced by progressives - I am not talking about being in vocal disagreement with someone, but the concept that the people you disagree with should be silenced through force of regulation that is backed by an enforcement authority. This is not okay. I'll criticize this line of thinking whether it comes from the left or right, but the left has reveled in this with a heightened sense of glee.

Sure it's a college, but why enforce speech-limiting rules in a college where we value independent thought and healthy debate? Sure, young people are free to experiment, but they should also be free to criticize. Shielding stupid progressive ideas from criticism gives them the air of legitimacy that they do not deserve, and we are all the worse off for it. When you simply label speech you disagree with as hate speech or extreme speech that is not a satisfactory argument

As a conservative with multiple degrees in technical fields, I find it peculiar when people accuse me questioning the legitimacy of science, or that I am backwards thinking, or anti-education. The scientific method is a rigorous one, but the left has hijacked it in an overly simplistic way. For example, that humans are a major contributor, or the main contributor to the release of greenhouse gases, is a broadly accepted conclusion. But it is a general conclusion that lacks specifics. It is scientifically irresponsible to say with certainty that unless we reduce our emissions by x percent, we will be met with certain doom in y years. Built into the various predictive models are variables that are at the control of the researchers doing the study. I am not claiming that they have nefarious reasons or that they are stacking the study to generate a certain result, certainly not. I am saying that these variables that affect the study are chosen based on assumptions, which by nature introduces error margins and uncertainties. So while I agree we should move our country to be less dependent on fossil fuels, I am far from convinced that we need to do this at a specific pace, nor is it convincing that signing some international pact on the subject will suddenly get the other countries to step in line when they've been cheating all along. I remain unconvinced precisely because I insist on relying on science, facts, rather than how strong my feelings are about wanting to leave a clean environment for my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

You weren't alive when this happened? Of course the government was responsible. George Bush pushed hard for the concept of home ownership, especially among blacks and other minorities, to create a culture of ownership. It sounded really good at the time. Alan Greenspan admitted that it was a mistake to inject so much money by holding interest rates so low. The private sector would not have written so many loans if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't so ready and eager to buy up those mortgages, which were then sold off to private investors in MBS - essentially guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

You weren't alive when this happened? Of course the government was responsible. George Bush pushed hard for the concept of home ownership, especially among blacks and other minorities, to create a culture of ownership. It sounded really good at the time. Alan Greenspan admitted that it was a mistake to inject so much money by holding interest rates so low. The private sector would not have written so many loans if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't so ready and eager to buy up those mortgages, which were then sold off to private investors in MBS - essentially guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

So you agree that we need more regulation, right? You really think that a free market with no government oversight wouldn't cheat people? I was alive during the worldcom and enron scandals where many people lost their life savings. This lead to more regulations to prevent unscrupulous business people from cheating the public. Yes what does R and Trump want? Less regulation so this kind of thing can happen again.

And look at what Trump/DeVos just did with regards to loans and aid to for profit universities. I don't see Trump trying to curtail abuses. More like he's a huge perpetrator of them, a la Trump U.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

NP. My water bill was $850 for three months. $350 of that is fees and taxes. If that’s what regulation looks like, no thank you. And I don’t have a choice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

You weren't alive when this happened? Of course the government was responsible. George Bush pushed hard for the concept of home ownership, especially among blacks and other minorities, to create a culture of ownership. It sounded really good at the time. Alan Greenspan admitted that it was a mistake to inject so much money by holding interest rates so low. The private sector would not have written so many loans if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't so ready and eager to buy up those mortgages, which were then sold off to private investors in MBS - essentially guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

So you agree that we need more regulation, right? You really think that a free market with no government oversight wouldn't cheat people? I was alive during the worldcom and enron scandals where many people lost their life savings. This lead to more regulations to prevent unscrupulous business people from cheating the public. Yes what does R and Trump want? Less regulation so this kind of thing can happen again.

And look at what Trump/DeVos just did with regards to loans and aid to for profit universities. I don't see Trump trying to curtail abuses. More like he's a huge perpetrator of them, a la Trump U.

Uh, did you read what I wrote? Government intervention is what lead to the financial crisis. They injected too much money into the economy in the form of cheap loans, and implicitly backed mortgages by the government. Adding regulation on top of this is counter intuitive. If eating something makes you sick, the solution is to stop eating the thing, not to eat something else to counter it while continuing to eat the thing. This is my last reply in this little sub discussion, I don't think you are making an effort to engage in a serious manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are so against government backing student loans, then I hope you are eve more outraged that Trump wants to fund for-profit colleges that scam people, like Trump U.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/399166-devos-to-repeal-obama-era-rule-penalizing-for-profit-colleges-that

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is planning to rollback an Obama-era crackdown on for-profit colleges that leave students in debt and with poor job opportunities, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

Trump administration officials have said Obama's "gainful employment" provision, which never fully went into effect, unfairly targets for-profit colleges.

Schools that offered career-training programs would have been required to publish data about their graduates under the rule, and federal aid could have been cut off to schools that had high student debt post-graduation, potentially shutting down thousands of programs...The Trump Education Department has largely dismantled the team that was responsible for investigating abuses by for-profit colleges.

Gosh, I wonder if this had anything to do with the lawsuit against of Trump U and the subsequent closing of his scam university.

The for profit college problem is a direct result of the government's involvement in student loans.
Neither Trump nor DeVos created the student loan problem or the for profit college problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so against government backing student loans, then I hope you are eve more outraged that Trump wants to fund for-profit colleges that scam people, like Trump U.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/399166-devos-to-repeal-obama-era-rule-penalizing-for-profit-colleges-that

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is planning to rollback an Obama-era crackdown on for-profit colleges that leave students in debt and with poor job opportunities, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

Trump administration officials have said Obama's "gainful employment" provision, which never fully went into effect, unfairly targets for-profit colleges.

Schools that offered career-training programs would have been required to publish data about their graduates under the rule, and federal aid could have been cut off to schools that had high student debt post-graduation, potentially shutting down thousands of programs...The Trump Education Department has largely dismantled the team that was responsible for investigating abuses by for-profit colleges.

Gosh, I wonder if this had anything to do with the lawsuit against of Trump U and the subsequent closing of his scam university.

The for profit college problem is a direct result of the government's involvement in student loans.
Neither Trump nor DeVos created the student loan problem or the for profit college problem.

Obama tried to make sure those for profit colleges show that they are able to perform, ie, students were getting jobs after graduating from there. Trump/Devos wants to remove that regulation because "it's unfair" for profit colleges.

Your mental gymnastics isn't wowing anyone.

[Anonymous]

No, but they have both managed to take advantage unscruplously of people wanting to better themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

NP. My water bill was $850 for three months. $350 of that is fees and taxes. If that’s what regulation looks like, no thank you. And I don’t have a choice

Imagine what it would cost if it wasn't regulated. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

NP. My water bill was $850 for three months. $350 of that is fees and taxes. If that’s what regulation looks like, no thank you. And I don’t have a choice

That is because there are unfunded water infrastructure issues which the private sector is not willing or able to pick up. Would you rather have similar drinking water to Flint, Mi?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

You weren't alive when this happened? Of course the government was responsible. George Bush pushed hard for the concept of home ownership, especially among blacks and other minorities, to create a culture of ownership. It sounded really good at the time. Alan Greenspan admitted that it was a mistake to inject so much money by holding interest rates so low. The private sector would not have written so many loans if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't so ready and eager to buy up those mortgages, which were then sold off to private investors in MBS - essentially guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

So you agree that we need more regulation, right? You really think that a free market with no government oversight wouldn't cheat people? I was alive during the worldcom and enron scandals where many people lost their life savings. This lead to more regulations to prevent unscrupulous business people from cheating the public. Yes what does R and Trump want? Less regulation so this kind of thing can happen again.

And look at what Trump/DeVos just did with regards to loans and aid to for profit universities. I don't see Trump trying to curtail abuses. More like he's a huge perpetrator of them, a la Trump U.

Uh, did you read what I wrote? Government intervention is what lead to the financial crisis. They injected too much money into the economy in the form of cheap loans, and implicitly backed mortgages by the government. Adding regulation on top of this is counter intuitive. If eating something makes you sick, the solution is to stop eating the thing, not to eat something else to counter it while continuing to eat the thing. This is my last reply in this little sub discussion, I don't think you are making an effort to engage in a serious manner.

You are correct. I can't engage with you either if you think that the answer is to stay dumb and don't go to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those concerned about costs, if it's such a concern why don't you want more funding for education then, or demand that government regulate college costs? I'm concerned about costs, too, and would love for the government to regulate it, both in higher ed and in healthcare. I'd love to see Rs and Ds come together on that. But, would Rs push for it? I'm thinking not. They'd rather just complain about the "liberal elite", which is laughable considering how the GOP elite send their kids to "liberal elite" colleges. Where did Kushner go again to college, or the Trumps? Where will the Kushners and Trumps send their children to college? Not Liberty U I'm guessing.

The government caused the costs to skyrocket, with the loans to everyone for everything. I'm not convinced I want the government attempting to provide a solution to a problem it created. Good intentions, and all that.

? The government caused the lending issue? Did the government cause the lending issues in the housing bubble, or did that happen because "market forces" and unscrupulous lenders took advantaged of an unregulated industry?

I bet you are glad government regulates your utility costs, though.

You weren't alive when this happened? Of course the government was responsible. George Bush pushed hard for the concept of home ownership, especially among blacks and other minorities, to create a culture of ownership. It sounded really good at the time. Alan Greenspan admitted that it was a mistake to inject so much money by holding interest rates so low. The private sector would not have written so many loans if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't so ready and eager to buy up those mortgages, which were then sold off to private investors in MBS - essentially guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the US government.

So you agree that we need more regulation, right? You really think that a free market with no government oversight wouldn't cheat people? I was alive during the worldcom and enron scandals where many people lost their life savings. This lead to more regulations to prevent unscrupulous business people from cheating the public. Yes what does R and Trump want? Less regulation so this kind of thing can happen again.

And look at what Trump/DeVos just did with regards to loans and aid to for profit universities. I don't see Trump trying to curtail abuses. More like he's a huge perpetrator of them, a la Trump U.

You're arguing that the government can be trusted to clean up a mess it created.

Can you at least understand the skepticism some of us have?

The gov't set up undischargeable student loans, and argued for college for everyone, and that loans should be available to all. College costs skyrocketed. My college experience was much more luxurious than that of my parents, and yet compared to the experience my children will have was practically torture (unairconditioned dorms? A school without an olympic size pool? No coffee house?!). Colleges have become resorts because they have unending piles of money, much of which comes from students who won't graduate and will just be stuck with piles of debt and little chance of getting out from under it. The government was instrumental in creating this. I doubt its ability to clean up its own mess, because there's little recognition that it did wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are so against government backing student loans, then I hope you are eve more outraged that Trump wants to fund for-profit colleges that scam people, like Trump U.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/399166-devos-to-repeal-obama-era-rule-penalizing-for-profit-colleges-that

Education Secretary Betsy DeVos is planning to rollback an Obama-era crackdown on for-profit colleges that leave students in debt and with poor job opportunities, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

Trump administration officials have said Obama's "gainful employment" provision, which never fully went into effect, unfairly targets for-profit colleges.

Schools that offered career-training programs would have been required to publish data about their graduates under the rule, and federal aid could have been cut off to schools that had high student debt post-graduation, potentially shutting down thousands of programs...The Trump Education Department has largely dismantled the team that was responsible for investigating abuses by for-profit colleges.

Gosh, I wonder if this had anything to do with the lawsuit against of Trump U and the subsequent closing of his scam university.

The for profit college problem is a direct result of the government's involvement in student loans.
Neither Trump nor DeVos created the student loan problem or the for profit college problem.

Obama tried to make sure those for profit colleges show that they are able to perform, ie, students were getting jobs after graduating from there. Trump/Devos wants to remove that regulation because "it's unfair" for profit colleges.

Your mental gymnastics isn't wowing anyone.

Without guaranteed student loans, with no consideration of major or ability to pay them back, for profit colleges would not have become the predatory institutions they were. They saw free government money for them, all they had to do was sign students up. The government caused the problem. Your inability to understand that isn't wowing anyone.

Obama was attempting to put in a fix without fixing the problem. And provided further reason why when the gov't created the problem, we should be skeptical of the gov't's ability to fix the problem.