How important is it to take a foreign language in high school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kids were in high school, we kept hearing that colleges liked to see four years of a language, but also liked four years of band. They liked to see them to take the most challenging courses (Ap sciences and multivariable calculus,) and also really liked to see students with the IB diploma.They wanted to see students doing more than just studying (drama club, sports, interesting extra curriculars, Olympic medal) and also wanted to see students who were kind and genuine, and leaders in their community. They wanted to see students who had done something spectacular (patent on a cure for cancer, Intel science fair). They wanted kids with a real passion for something. Meanwhile the state outlines for a diploma determined most of the courses they had to take.

It seemed to me that kids could not do all these things.

+1 At our HS, the "most rigorous" courses would mean taking a full load of AP classes in 11th-12th grade, 6 or 7 classes each year. Very few college students take 6-7 classes per semester so why should a HS student be taking that many "college level" classes. It's ridiculous and if that's what my kid has to go to a "top school" then he's not going. No wonder kids are suffering from so many mental health issues in HS and college. I'll take a happy kid at a less prestigious school any day.

If your kid has mental health issues then by all means lighten the load. But some kids do fine with a rigorous courseload. My kid wanted to take what she wanted to take and there was nothing I could do to change her mind. She did fine and even got enough sleep every night near as I could tell - in bed by 9 or 10 most nights. She was relaxed and happy. They are actually close to adulthood here you know, it’s time to start letting them choose the course of their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Thank you everyone.
I appreciate the advice. As I mentioned earlier since he is a junior, he does not have a firm list of schools he wants to apply to but since he is interested in a liberal arts education and is likely to have a few top 20 schools on his list, I went ahead and looked at the common data set for a few of these and half recommend 4 years although I don't think any require 4 years.
I did raise the prospect of taking the AP exam in the Spring after taking Spanish 5 but he was horrified - he is finding Spanish stressful and taking an AP exam without having taken the course would add to the stress he says. He says he is now ok with taking AP Spanish next year but he is not happy about it. He is a straight A student who does not shirk from hard work so I don't think this is laziness. For some reason he finds the class stressful. I have offered to find him a tutor if necessary."

I think someone mentioned this but I wanted to highlight it.

If DS really doesn't like Spanish, or even if he is just done with it, then his goal should be TO NOT HAVE TO TAKE SPANISH IN COLLEGE.

Many liberal arts schools are going to want him to take Spanish in college.

Even if he wants a STEM major in a SLAC their distribution requirements might require 2 years of Foreign Language.

Look up distribution requirements at potential schools.

His best bet to avoid taking Spanish in college is to take AP Spanish next year and get a 5 on the test.

That just might be enough to avoid taking 2 or 3 semesters of Spanish in college where each semester is as hard as a year in HS.

Why would anyone want to take 10 years of Spanish and then want to drop out? Isn’t the goal to be fluent in something? Isn’t that where you stop?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my kids were in high school, we kept hearing that colleges liked to see four years of a language, but also liked four years of band. They liked to see them to take the most challenging courses (Ap sciences and multivariable calculus,) and also really liked to see students with the IB diploma.They wanted to see students doing more than just studying (drama club, sports, interesting extra curriculars, Olympic medal) and also wanted to see students who were kind and genuine, and leaders in their community. They wanted to see students who had done something spectacular (patent on a cure for cancer, Intel science fair). They wanted kids with a real passion for something. Meanwhile the state outlines for a diploma determined most of the courses they had to take.

It seemed to me that kids could not do all these things.

+1 At our HS, the "most rigorous" courses would mean taking a full load of AP classes in 11th-12th grade, 6 or 7 classes each year. Very few college students take 6-7 classes per semester so why should a HS student be taking that many "college level" classes. It's ridiculous and if that's what my kid has to go to a "top school" then he's not going. No wonder kids are suffering from so many mental health issues in HS and college. I'll take a happy kid at a less prestigious school any day.

If your kid has mental health issues then by all means lighten the load. But some kids do fine with a rigorous courseload. My kid wanted to take what she wanted to take and there was nothing I could do to change her mind. She did fine and even got enough sleep every night near as I could tell - in bed by 9 or 10 most nights. She was relaxed and happy. They are actually close to adulthood here you know, it’s time to start letting them choose the course of their lives.

How many teen suicide stories start with, "but she/he seemed so happy"? My concern is that the message kids are getting from school/parents/society is that they *must* to go a top college and to do that they *must* do all these things, which are really not possible for someone to do all at the same time. So a lot of them think they are failing no matter what they do. And, with the "top colleges" now having sub-10% acceptance rates, it's a crap shoot anyway, even if you somehow manage to do everything it's really very likely you won't get into your top-20 dream school. My DS has already started detailing the classes he wants to take next year (Junior year) and I've insisted that he has to put in something "fun" and strongly consider doing a regular rather than AP for at least one class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Top school will want him to continue his studies, plain and simple. Stopping shoes that he’s just a bean counter, checking off requirement boxes as he goes, and not someone who is genuinely interested in learning.

I would think the opposite. If he continues to take a class he’s not interested in, just because He thinksthat’s what top schools want to see, that’s him not d doing what HE wants.

College admissions officers are not examining his schedule that critically. Five years of foreign language in MCPS is five years of foreign language. No college, should look down on that because he didn’t take a sixth year. I know that Kids get into top 20 schools all the time from FCPS without taking five years, let alone six. This is why guidance counselors do not want to give iadvice on this. Because it soon as a kid does not get into A specific collegesomeone will Want to blame the GC’s advice.As long as your kid is taking a great number of honors and AP classes, that shows rigor. There is plenty of room for 4 years of band classes, or an art or theater class.A student does not have to replace a Spanish class with an equally difficult class., Especially in the senior year.

I do not think a top school would count the two years of Spanish in middle school so they would assume this student has 3 years of high school Spanish

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Thank you everyone.
I appreciate the advice. As I mentioned earlier since he is a junior, he does not have a firm list of schools he wants to apply to but since he is interested in a liberal arts education and is likely to have a few top 20 schools on his list, I went ahead and looked at the common data set for a few of these and half recommend 4 years although I don't think any require 4 years.
I did raise the prospect of taking the AP exam in the Spring after taking Spanish 5 but he was horrified - he is finding Spanish stressful and taking an AP exam without having taken the course would add to the stress he says. He says he is now ok with taking AP Spanish next year but he is not happy about it. He is a straight A student who does not shirk from hard work so I don't think this is laziness. For some reason he finds the class stressful. I have offered to find him a tutor if necessary."

I think someone mentioned this but I wanted to highlight it.

If DS really doesn't like Spanish, or even if he is just done with it, then his goal should be TO NOT HAVE TO TAKE SPANISH IN COLLEGE.

Many liberal arts schools are going to want him to take Spanish in college.

Even if he wants a STEM major in a SLAC their distribution requirements might require 2 years of Foreign Language.

Look up distribution requirements at potential schools.

His best bet to avoid taking Spanish in college is to take AP Spanish next year and get a 5 on the test.

That just might be enough to avoid taking 2 or 3 semesters of Spanish in college where each semester is as hard as a year in HS.

Thanks. I did mention this. Not all of them accept AP test results but a couple of them do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Top school will want him to continue his studies, plain and simple. Stopping shoes that he’s just a bean counter, checking off requirement boxes as he goes, and not someone who is genuinely interested in learning.

I would think the opposite. If he continues to take a class he’s not interested in, just because He thinksthat’s what top schools want to see, that’s him not d doing what HE wants.

College admissions officers are not examining his schedule that critically. Five years of foreign language in MCPS is five years of foreign language. No college, should look down on that because he didn’t take a sixth year. I know that Kids get into top 20 schools all the time from FCPS without taking five years, let alone six. This is why guidance counselors do not want to give iadvice on this. Because it soon as a kid does not get into A specific collegesomeone will Want to blame the GC’s advice.As long as your kid is taking a great number of honors and AP classes, that shows rigor. There is plenty of room for 4 years of band classes, or an art or theater class.A student does not have to replace a Spanish class with an equally difficult class., Especially in the senior year.

I do not think a top school would count the two years of Spanish in middle school so they would assume this student has 3 years of high school Spanish

In FCPS, it counts as HS credit. Same way that taking Algebra in MS counts as HS credit.

[Anonymous]

First of all, four years of high school Spanish is different than getting to Spanish level 4. Getting to Spanish 4 in 11th grade shouldn't mean you're "done."

Second, so many people are talking about what is the best decision for just getting IN to college. What about being a well-educated person who can work in a field that isn't hyper local? Most companies are multi-national. Having a good working knowledge of a second language should be seen as a good thing, not just a check box for getting in to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First of all, four years of high school Spanish is different than getting to Spanish level 4. Getting to Spanish 4 in 11th grade shouldn't mean you're "done."

Second, so many people are talking about what is the best decision for just getting IN to college. What about being a well-educated person who can work in a field that isn't hyper local? Most companies are multi-national. Having a good working knowledge of a second language should be seen as a good thing, not just a check box for getting in to college.

Except the kid is taking Spanish 5 in 11th grade.
Also for those posters talking about the importance of foreign language proficiency and the importance of loving to learn different subjects instead of just checking boxes, I hear you but I think it is possible for a child to love learning while not loving one particular subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First of all, four years of high school Spanish is different than getting to Spanish level 4. Getting to Spanish 4 in 11th grade shouldn't mean you're "done."

Second, so many people are talking about what is the best decision for just getting IN to college. What about being a well-educated person who can work in a field that isn't hyper local? Most companies are multi-national. Having a good working knowledge of a second language should be seen as a good thing, not just a check box for getting in to college.

Except the kid is taking Spanish 5 in 11th grade.
Also for those posters talking about the importance of foreign language proficiency and the importance of loving to learn different subjects instead of just checking boxes, I hear you but I think it is possible for a child to love learning while not loving one particular subject.

When did we decide that you had to love the different subjects that are necessary for being an educated person? It's a huge bonus when you love math or English or science, but if you don't, you understand that it's important to continue your education in those areas to be an educated person. The same should go for language.

If we teach our children to only pursue an education in the area they love, aren't we missing the boat?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would think that Spanish Honors 5 and AP Spanish would be redundant. That's 5 years worth of honors level Spanish. Is there any reason he didn't opt to take AP Spanish this year instead of Honors 5?

The people that are chiming in that Spanish 5 is equivalent to AP Spanish do not have kids in MCPS. My DS is in Honors Spanish 5 and it is the first year that her teacher has exclusively used Spanish in class. They haven't read any real literature yet. Many of the students could not order very well in a restaurant. DS is working very hard and will be well-prepared for AP Spanish next year, but most classmates will not be.

DD is in honors French 3 in an MCPS middle school. The class is 90% taught in French.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Thank you everyone.
I appreciate the advice. As I mentioned earlier since he is a junior, he does not have a firm list of schools he wants to apply to but since he is interested in a liberal arts education and is likely to have a few top 20 schools on his list, I went ahead and looked at the common data set for a few of these and half recommend 4 years although I don't think any require 4 years.
I did raise the prospect of taking the AP exam in the Spring after taking Spanish 5 but he was horrified - he is finding Spanish stressful and taking an AP exam without having taken the course would add to the stress he says. He says he is now ok with taking AP Spanish next year but he is not happy about it. He is a straight A student who does not shirk from hard work so I don't think this is laziness. For some reason he finds the class stressful. I have offered to find him a tutor if necessary."

I think someone mentioned this but I wanted to highlight it.

If DS really doesn't like Spanish, or even if he is just done with it, then his goal should be TO NOT HAVE TO TAKE SPANISH IN COLLEGE.

Many liberal arts schools are going to want him to take Spanish in college.

Even if he wants a STEM major in a SLAC their distribution requirements might require 2 years of Foreign Language.

Look up distribution requirements at potential schools.

His best bet to avoid taking Spanish in college is to take AP Spanish next year and get a 5 on the test.

That just might be enough to avoid taking 2 or 3 semesters of Spanish in college where each semester is as hard as a year in HS.

Other options:

- Pick colleges that don't have foreign language requirements.

- Study a language other than Spanish in college. Maybe the son would have more fun in a French class, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Top school will want him to continue his studies, plain and simple. Stopping shoes that he’s just a bean counter, checking off requirement boxes as he goes, and not someone who is genuinely interested in learning.

I would think the opposite. If he continues to take a class he’s not interested in, just because He thinksthat’s what top schools want to see, that’s him not d doing what HE wants.

College admissions officers are not examining his schedule that critically. Five years of foreign language in MCPS is five years of foreign language. No college, should look down on that because he didn’t take a sixth year. I know that Kids get into top 20 schools all the time from FCPS without taking five years, let alone six. This is why guidance counselors do not want to give iadvice on this. Because it soon as a kid does not get into A specific collegesomeone will Want to blame the GC’s advice.As long as your kid is taking a great number of honors and AP classes, that shows rigor. There is plenty of room for 4 years of band classes, or an art or theater class.A student does not have to replace a Spanish class with an equally difficult class., Especially in the senior year.

I do not think a top school would count the two years of Spanish in middle school so they would assume this student has 3 years of high school Spanish

Yes, if its HS level language study in MS they do. My kid is doing a full Year 1 of foreign language in 6th grade now and the new ruling with MCPS is that they can have the grade go on their HS transcript, or not (depending on the grade and how you feel about it, obviously). So by the time my kid gets into 9th grade in HS they will already have 3 HS years of foreign language achieved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First of all, four years of high school Spanish is different than getting to Spanish level 4. Getting to Spanish 4 in 11th grade shouldn't mean you're "done."

Second, so many people are talking about what is the best decision for just getting IN to college. What about being a well-educated person who can work in a field that isn't hyper local? Most companies are multi-national. Having a good working knowledge of a second language should be seen as a good thing, not just a check box for getting in to college.

Except the kid is taking Spanish 5 in 11th grade.
Also for those posters talking about the importance of foreign language proficiency and the importance of loving to learn different subjects instead of just checking boxes, I hear you but I think it is possible for a child to love learning while not loving one particular subject.

When did we decide that you had to love the different subjects that are necessary for being an educated person? It's a huge bonus when you love math or English or science, but if you don't, you understand that it's important to continue your education in those areas to be an educated person. The same should go for language.

If we teach our children to only pursue an education in the area they love, aren't we missing the boat?

The DS in the original post here has already taken a lot of Spanish and already seems to be taking rigorous courses. The student wants to take social science courses, not spend the time playing Donkey Kong.

Bright students who can tolerate it should get a rigorous, well-rounded education, even if they hate some of the courses involved.

But, at some points, kids also have to start thinking about who they actually are, who they want to be, and what they think a well-rounded person should know.

If, at some point, they choose to know a little less Spanish, and a little more about Adam Smith, or a little more about the Olduvai Gorge, why not? Maybe the kid will end up working as an archaeologist in Kenya and never use Spanish.

And I think the real point of what Harvard admissions people say online is that they want to see kids who are the masters of their own fate, not puppets who do what parental or college strings make them do.

There has to be a balance between requirements and electives. At least some electives ought to be real electives.

[Anonymous]

With 5 years of Spanish, I can not imagine there will be any problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When my kids were in high school, we kept hearing that colleges liked to see four years of a language, but also liked four years of band. They liked to see them to take the most challenging courses (Ap sciences and multivariable calculus,) and also really liked to see students with the IB diploma.They wanted to see students doing more than just studying (drama club, sports, interesting extra curriculars, Olympic medal) and also wanted to see students who were kind and genuine, and leaders in their community. They wanted to see students who had done something spectacular (patent on a cure for cancer, Intel science fair). They wanted kids with a real passion for something. Meanwhile the state outlines for a diploma determined most of the courses they had to take.

It seemed to me that kids could not do all these things.

I could kiss you. Thank you!