Yu Ying - Do/Can Non-Native Kids Actually SPEAK Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since when do simple statements of fact constitute "animosity" toward YY on this thread, or any other. It's true that few YY parents mind if the kids don't get far beyond basic utterances in Chinese. Any adult native speaker can easily determine this by talking to the kids and parents.

It's a different story in Chinese public immersion programs in US cities where lotteries for native speakers exist (mostly in traditional public schools), and programs cater to both native and non-native speakers. I have a cousin (not a native speaker) who sends his children to such a program in Northern Cal. The family has to work hard to meet standards for spoken Chinese in the school, such as enrolling the kids in a mandatory, free 5-week summer immersion camp the school runs for kids who aren't meeting their high standards for speaking (serving almost all the students who don't speak the language at home).

Not so at YY, and the parents like it that way.

Sigh. It certainly sounds like animosity when you make snide comments about how "few parents care" and "the parents like it that way." And the fact that you and a couple of other native speakers come here again and again to disparage the school does give the appearance of a strange axe to grind.

For the PP who asked: There are a few "heritage" speakers who like to weigh in again and again. The agenda is 1) Yu Ying doesn't have enough native speakers to have good, two-way immersion; 2) Yu Ying should set up supports to teach Cantonese speaking kids Mandarin in order to get more native speakers; 3) Yu Ying should have a lottery preference for Chinese speakers; 4) or have a test-in option for these kids; 5) yu Ying parents should lobby the administration and Congress to get charter law changed to allow these children a preference or test in option; 6) Yu Ying should fire the head of school and hire a native speaker, which would likely increase interest among the (comparatively small) DC Chinese community.

Then they will toss in a few nasty comments about how the YY kids they know all speak terrible Chinese, and how their heritage school children laugh at them and say they talk like babies. One woman says she routinely lies to her neighbors and tells them their kids' Chinese is wonderful because Chinese people are all so polite.

^^This pretty much sums it up, but you forgot to mention how those same people will then turn around and innocently say, "But how is this bashing the school? I am only stating facts!" It's almost as though they want the school to fail and would prefer that non-Chinese kids not even bother learning the language because they can never be as fluent as the children of the native speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It comes up because a lot of parents wonder what the point of doing it is l, if a.) you’re risking your kid not understanding the fundamentals really well because they’re being taught in a foreign language and b.) the odds are that your child will never become fluent anyway.

Yes, this is my basic concern. A couple years later, the ephemeral language gains are mostly lost, and the sum total of it might just be lost time on core subjects. I know there could be a lot of huffing about boiling it down to this but... if you're a teenager without Chinese speaking context, little language ability anyway, and a need to spend your time on your subjects or grades....could you really say it was worth it?

It's unclear enough to me to say, "Nah."

Again, though, couldn't this be said of other language-immersion schools? Why would this be true for a Chinese-immersion school but not a Spanish-immersion school, for instance?

Because Spanish language and culture and opportunities to practice in real life are more common in the US.

Yes, but you're talking about using the language in the school context and concerns over whether it detracts from the child's ability to learn core subjects. If a child is struggling in math, teaching in another language - any language - may be too much for that child regardless of how much exposure may be available outside of school. If the child has little natural language ability overall, it may not be worth sending him or her to an immersion school where half of the day is taught in another language - regardless of the language being taught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since when do simple statements of fact constitute "animosity" toward YY on this thread, or any other. It's true that few YY parents mind if the kids don't get far beyond basic utterances in Chinese. Any adult native speaker can easily determine this by talking to the kids and parents.

It's a different story in Chinese public immersion programs in US cities where lotteries for native speakers exist (mostly in traditional public schools), and programs cater to both native and non-native speakers. I have a cousin (not a native speaker) who sends his children to such a program in Northern Cal. The family has to work hard to meet standards for spoken Chinese in the school, such as enrolling the kids in a mandatory, free 5-week summer immersion camp the school runs for kids who aren't meeting their high standards for speaking (serving almost all the students who don't speak the language at home).

Not so at YY, and the parents like it that way.

Sigh. It certainly sounds like animosity when you make snide comments about how "few parents care" and "the parents like it that way." And the fact that you and a couple of other native speakers come here again and again to disparage the school does give the appearance of a strange axe to grind.

For the PP who asked: There are a few "heritage" speakers who like to weigh in again and again. The agenda is 1) Yu Ying doesn't have enough native speakers to have good, two-way immersion; 2) Yu Ying should set up supports to teach Cantonese speaking kids Mandarin in order to get more native speakers; 3) Yu Ying should have a lottery preference for Chinese speakers; 4) or have a test-in option for these kids; 5) yu Ying parents should lobby the administration and Congress to get charter law changed to allow these children a preference or test in option; 6) Yu Ying should fire the head of school and hire a native speaker, which would likely increase interest among the (comparatively small) DC Chinese community.

Then they will toss in a few nasty comments about how the YY kids they know all speak terrible Chinese, and how their heritage school children laugh at them and say they talk like babies. One woman says she routinely lies to her neighbors and tells them their kids' Chinese is wonderful because Chinese people are all so polite.

Move on already. The "heritage speakers" piped down a while ago, maybe because you guys (and your silly principal) are a lost cause.

I'm not a native speaker, but I majored in Chinese in college and can hear the problem when when I try to speak Mandarin to YY and DCI kids in my hood. The older kids don't speak like babies, they speak like adults who've taken a semester of Chinese. They don't learn Chinese from other kids, so they don't speak like kids.

I do my share of lying to be polite to YY neighbors. Must have learned that during my junior year abroad in China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since when do simple statements of fact constitute "animosity" toward YY on this thread, or any other. It's true that few YY parents mind if the kids don't get far beyond basic utterances in Chinese. Any adult native speaker can easily determine this by talking to the kids and parents.

It's a different story in Chinese public immersion programs in US cities where lotteries for native speakers exist (mostly in traditional public schools), and programs cater to both native and non-native speakers. I have a cousin (not a native speaker) who sends his children to such a program in Northern Cal. The family has to work hard to meet standards for spoken Chinese in the school, such as enrolling the kids in a mandatory, free 5-week summer immersion camp the school runs for kids who aren't meeting their high standards for speaking (serving almost all the students who don't speak the language at home).

Not so at YY, and the parents like it that way.

Sigh. It certainly sounds like animosity when you make snide comments about how "few parents care" and "the parents like it that way." And the fact that you and a couple of other native speakers come here again and again to disparage the school does give the appearance of a strange axe to grind.

For the PP who asked: There are a few "heritage" speakers who like to weigh in again and again. The agenda is 1) Yu Ying doesn't have enough native speakers to have good, two-way immersion; 2) Yu Ying should set up supports to teach Cantonese speaking kids Mandarin in order to get more native speakers; 3) Yu Ying should have a lottery preference for Chinese speakers; 4) or have a test-in option for these kids; 5) yu Ying parents should lobby the administration and Congress to get charter law changed to allow these children a preference or test in option; 6) Yu Ying should fire the head of school and hire a native speaker, which would likely increase interest among the (comparatively small) DC Chinese community.

Then they will toss in a few nasty comments about how the YY kids they know all speak terrible Chinese, and how their heritage school children laugh at them and say they talk like babies. One woman says she routinely lies to her neighbors and tells them their kids' Chinese is wonderful because Chinese people are all so polite.

Move on already. The "heritage speakers" piped down a while ago, maybe because you guys (and your silly principal) are a lost cause.

I'm not a native speaker, but I majored in Chinese in college and can hear the problem when when I try to speak Mandarin to YY and DCI kids in my hood. The older kids don't speak like babies, they speak like adults who've taken a semester of Chinese. They don't learn Chinese from other kids, so they don't speak like kids.

I do my share of lying to be polite to YY neighbors. Must have learned that during my junior year abroad in China.

So your gripe is that the kids don’t speak as well as you, and you majored in Chinese? And you deliberately lie to children about their Chinese speaking ability? Some of you people are unbelievable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since when do simple statements of fact constitute "animosity" toward YY on this thread, or any other. It's true that few YY parents mind if the kids don't get far beyond basic utterances in Chinese. Any adult native speaker can easily determine this by talking to the kids and parents.

It's a different story in Chinese public immersion programs in US cities where lotteries for native speakers exist (mostly in traditional public schools), and programs cater to both native and non-native speakers. I have a cousin (not a native speaker) who sends his children to such a program in Northern Cal. The family has to work hard to meet standards for spoken Chinese in the school, such as enrolling the kids in a mandatory, free 5-week summer immersion camp the school runs for kids who aren't meeting their high standards for speaking (serving almost all the students who don't speak the language at home).

Not so at YY, and the parents like it that way.

Sigh. It certainly sounds like animosity when you make snide comments about how "few parents care" and "the parents like it that way." And the fact that you and a couple of other native speakers come here again and again to disparage the school does give the appearance of a strange axe to grind.

For the PP who asked: There are a few "heritage" speakers who like to weigh in again and again. The agenda is 1) Yu Ying doesn't have enough native speakers to have good, two-way immersion; 2) Yu Ying should set up supports to teach Cantonese speaking kids Mandarin in order to get more native speakers; 3) Yu Ying should have a lottery preference for Chinese speakers; 4) or have a test-in option for these kids; 5) yu Ying parents should lobby the administration and Congress to get charter law changed to allow these children a preference or test in option; 6) Yu Ying should fire the head of school and hire a native speaker, which would likely increase interest among the (comparatively small) DC Chinese community.

Then they will toss in a few nasty comments about how the YY kids they know all speak terrible Chinese, and how their heritage school children laugh at them and say they talk like babies. One woman says she routinely lies to her neighbors and tells them their kids' Chinese is wonderful because Chinese people are all so polite.

What's your point? That there isn't a kernel of truth to any of these arguments? You sound obsessed with what "heritage speakers" post, which suggests insecurity about Chinese instruction at YY on your part. Why not just ignore these guys?

As for "lying" to neighbors. It's standard for Chinese to complement foreigners' Chinese, no matter how poorly a student may speak, which they don't see as lying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It comes up because a lot of parents wonder what the point of doing it is l, if a.) you’re risking your kid not understanding the fundamentals really well because they’re being taught in a foreign language and b.) the odds are that your child will never become fluent anyway.

Yes, this is my basic concern. A couple years later, the ephemeral language gains are mostly lost, and the sum total of it might just be lost time on core subjects. I know there could be a lot of huffing about boiling it down to this but... if you're a teenager without Chinese speaking context, little language ability anyway, and a need to spend your time on your subjects or grades....could you really say it was worth it?

It's unclear enough to me to say, "Nah."

You're a smart cookie, PP, the rare "non-native" voice on a YY board assessing risks before taking the plunge.

The risk of a YY or DCI kid growing into a "teenager without Chinese speaking content" you identify is real. Parents who don't speak Chinese but score in the YY lottery tend to assume that the program will be "worth it," partly because the Mandarin screens out FARMs kids to the same degree as JKLM, Brent etc. without high-end DC real estate in the mix. Not a safe assumption.

Another problem is that, without bilingual ABC classmates, or classmates from Chinese-speaking countries, YY and DCI kids are at risk of lacking the peer connections to embrace target language instruction as teens. It's one thing to have an ES-age child who doesn't have native-speaking friends, or a strong family connection to the relevant culture and geography, to study a language intensely, but another thing to ask a 13-18 year-old. When I attend the annual ATDLE (Association of Two-Way and Dual Language Education Conference) on the West Coast, there's invariably a symposium on this topic. Bilingual ed specialists from Canada talk about the serious problem that country has with English dominant students in ES French immersion, and MS partial immersion, programs outside Quebec and Ottawa (around 10% of students nationwide) rebelling against HS French studies.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I thought DCUM'ers were over the YY chinese proficiency conversations already, smdh

[Anonymous]

GIVE IT UP, PEOPLE. STOP STUDYING FOREIGN LANGUAGES, YOU SAD LOSERS. There are only 1 billion Mandarin speakers in the world, but heaven forbid the children of the capital city of the United States should learn a word of it.

wtf, I have never heard such a bizarre group of militant xenophobes in my life

[Anonymous]

Single Parent of a current YY 5th grader here. Most on this board would consider me low SES even though the legal threshold for low SES is approx 5K lower than my income and household size ratio. We live frugally and minimally, east of Rock Creek Park.

Informally, I'd say that many parents fall within 5-20K of the threshold for low SES... but thats hard to truly verify.

I invested early in Mandarin tutoring, and only oral language and conversation, as that is the kind of practice and proficiency I wanted for my elementary-aged kid. I am not a native speaker and don't speak Mandarin.

In grades 1-3, I used an online site to hire college students from GW and other native speakers to meet with my kid have 45 minute conversations twice weekly for exposure. I also joined a few playgroups early where my kid was integrated with kids of native speakers (in VA), went to events where Mandarin would be spoken, and consistently encouraged the exposure outside of school. It wasn't that expensive, but it was a choice that not every family is willing to commit to.

Exposure outside of school makes a huge difference when the parent isn't a native speaker and the school is pretty clear about that from the start. Kids get potentially 90 school days in Mandarin, not accounting for fields trips, subs, and sick days. Also the kid needs to buy-in and actually wanting to learn the language...

The current fifth grade was huge, they were the guinea pigs for a lot of strategies and logistics issues. The parents that made the time effort to supplement early have seen it pay off in the upper grades.

I wouldn't trust any the analysis on DCUM, different classes of fifth graders faced very different circumstances, which for charters is pretty much par for the course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It comes up because a lot of parents wonder what the point of doing it is l, if a.) you’re risking your kid not understanding the fundamentals really well because they’re being taught in a foreign language and b.) the odds are that your child will never become fluent anyway.

Yes, this is my basic concern. A couple years later, the ephemeral language gains are mostly lost, and the sum total of it might just be lost time on core subjects. I know there could be a lot of huffing about boiling it down to this but... if you're a teenager without Chinese speaking context, little language ability anyway, and a need to spend your time on your subjects or grades....could you really say it was worth it?

It's unclear enough to me to say, "Nah."

You're a smart cookie, PP, the rare "non-native" voice on a YY board assessing risks before taking the plunge.

The risk of a YY or DCI kid growing into a "teenager without Chinese speaking content" you identify is real. Parents who don't speak Chinese but score in the YY lottery tend to assume that the program will be "worth it," partly because the Mandarin screens out FARMs kids to the same degree as JKLM, Brent etc. without high-end DC real estate in the mix. Not a safe assumption.

Another problem is that, without bilingual ABC classmates, or classmates from Chinese-speaking countries, YY and DCI kids are at risk of lacking the peer connections to embrace target language instruction as teens. It's one thing to have an ES-age child who doesn't have native-speaking friends, or a strong family connection to the relevant culture and geography, to study a language intensely, but another thing to ask a 13-18 year-old. When I attend the annual ATDLE (Association of Two-Way and Dual Language Education Conference) on the West Coast, there's invariably a symposium on this topic. Bilingual ed specialists from Canada talk about the serious problem that country has with English dominant students in ES French immersion, and MS partial immersion, programs outside Quebec and Ottawa (around 10% of students nationwide) rebelling against HS French studies.

We know several YY families who take their kids to a heritage language program in MoCo on weekends to help ensure that can really speak AND have a native speaking peer group in the area. They've been doing this for 4 or 5 years.

Everybody in the school community isn't oblivious to the risks!

[Anonymous]

We come from a European country where children who aren't being raised bilingual by a native speaker of a language don't start learning a 2nd language in a govt school until age 8 or 9. This approach is the norm in Europe. Educators understand the importance of gaining and developing literacy in one's native language before adding a 2nd language. In DC, monolingual parents are often in a big rush for a kids to gain literacy in a 2nd language they can't reinforce at home. We don't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We come from a European country where children who aren't being raised bilingual by a native speaker of a language don't start learning a 2nd language in a govt school until age 8 or 9. This approach is the norm in Europe. Educators understand the importance of gaining and developing literacy in one's native language before adding a 2nd language. In DC, monolingual parents are often in a big rush for a kids to gain literacy in a 2nd language they can't reinforce at home. We don't get it.

+1
I'm an American who lived in Europe for years and managed to learn plenty of languages despite not starting until 8th grade with my first. Many of my European friends speak beautiful English (plus several other languages) despite not starting until 3rd grade or so.

Although I considered sending my child to an immersion program, I didn't want to choose one in a language I can't support at home (my Spanish is limited and Chinese/Hebrew is nonexistent), especially if that means commuting across town unnecessarily. We are very happy with our neighborhood DCPS elementary school, where our child is getting a great education in English, with a bit of Spanish as well. There will be plenty of opportunity to learn more languages as he gets older.

[Anonymous]

I'm an American who studied a Romance Language for a year in elementary school, then one period a day through middle school and high school. At university, I used the language to do academic research. When it came time to choose a career, I was given professional training in that language and used it in several assignments.

Based on my experience, I think it's awesome that Yu Ying parents are willing to take a chance on immersion Chinese for their children. While the program may not be perfect, whatever mastery their students gain will give them an advantage if they decide to study Chinese at a higher level, and/or use it professionally.

In general, I stay away from questioning the educational choices of other parents. My child was admitted to Yu Ying ages ago, and we declined; but I'm sure Yu Ying is a fantastic option for other students. JKLM parents sometimes post that their students are not challenged in DCPS at the elementary level. I'll bet that learning Mandarin, at whatever level of proficiency, is a challenge.

[Anonymous]

These discussions always seem to treat fluency in a foreign language like some mysterious, all-or-nothing proposition that is not worth undertaking if it is not done perfectly from the get-go - with very little understanding of how speaking more than one language actually functions, or how many different ways there are to be proficient in a language.

As far as i'm concerned, giving kids exposure and the building blocks to learn other languages early on is a good thing; it's been proven to be a good thing; and bilingual education does that. Some kids are going to attain higher levels of fluency than others, because some people are simply better at languages than others. Good luck controlling that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These discussions always seem to treat fluency in a foreign language like some mysterious, all-or-nothing proposition that is not worth undertaking if it is not done perfectly from the get-go - with very little understanding of how speaking more than one language actually functions, or how many different ways there are to be proficient in a language.

As far as i'm concerned, giving kids exposure and the building blocks to learn other languages early on is a good thing; it's been proven to be a good thing; and bilingual education does that. Some kids are going to attain higher levels of fluency than others, because some people are simply better at languages than others. Good luck controlling that.

+1. Some critics of YY on this thread seem focused only on the goal of speaking perfect Chinese, but not on the benefits of the *process* of learning another language (some specific cognitive benefits, exposure to another culture for many kids who wouldn't otherwise get this exposure, etc.).

-parent of an early elem. kid in a non-Chinese immersion school