Poverty and lack of supermarkets...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a food desert in Baltimore. Most people bought enough for a day or two from convenience stores in the neighborhood. These foods were either pre-cooked or highly marked up. Either way, they were all junk food and typically not fresh. The store owners were all Korean and highly suspicious of shoplifting and robbery by the AA customers. No, they didn't seem capable or interested in telling us apart. So my mom refused to patronize them.
We didn't have a car so on Saturday, the trip from our neighborhood to one with a Giant took half the day. When my mom became very ill in my mid-teens, that became my responsibility. Time I could have spent studying or working was devoted to obtaining bread, milk, and other basic staples. I know it impacted me academically.
As an adult, I've insisted on decent grocery stores nearby as a non negotiable in selecting where to live. Very disappointed with Safeway even in the suburbs. Rotten food is commonly left on shelves.

I don't blame them. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for korean grocers. They have the cojones to set up shop in the grocery deserts and are the victims of relentless crime. And when any major unrest occurs, they're the first stores to get looted and burned to the ground. I recall the images of these guys trying to defend their stores during the LA riots and it was painful to watch their life's savings go up in flames.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a new problem. Food deserts are a real problem, and then this is the flip side.

I wish I had a solution.

The solution is for the people in that food desert to get their neighbors to stop shoplifting and robbing the places they count on for food.

Exactly. I have very little sympathy for this issue. The article states that shoplifting and the inability to keep reliable staff is the biggest hurdle to opening more grocery stores. That is a self induced problem that can only be fixed within the culture, not by posting a million cops and whining about racism.

So you expecting the law abiding citizens in these neighborhoods to stop crime, not the police? This is ridiculous. I am not sure what the solution is but I am sure it is not asking someone who is stuck in a cycle of poverty to police their neighbors.

At first I thought the comment about the food card and revoking the ability to shop if caught shoplifting was odd but then I remembered I am a Costco member and I pay $55 a year for the privilege of being treated like a shop lifter and having my bag checked when I leave. So maybe it isn't so out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a new problem. Food deserts are a real problem, and then this is the flip side.

I wish I had a solution.

The solution is for the people in that food desert to get their neighbors to stop shoplifting and robbing the places they count on for food.

Exactly. I have very little sympathy for this issue. The article states that shoplifting and the inability to keep reliable staff is the biggest hurdle to opening more grocery stores. That is a self induced problem that can only be fixed within the culture, not by posting a million cops and whining about racism.

So you expecting the law abiding citizens in these neighborhoods to stop crime, not the police? This is ridiculous. I am not sure what the solution is but I am sure it is not asking someone who is stuck in a cycle of poverty to police their neighbors.

At first I thought the comment about the food card and revoking the ability to shop if caught shoplifting was odd but then I remembered I am a Costco member and I pay $55 a year for the privilege of being treated like a shop lifter and having my bag checked when I leave. So maybe it isn't so out there.

New poster here, but yes the local community does play a huge role in local crime rates. The Police at the end of the day are a reactive organization (most of the time), they don't have the manpower or resources to stand guard at every little grocery store in order to keep shoplifters in check. The fact of the matter is food deserts and high crime areas are usually one of the same making it unprofitable for a supermarket to operate in. Local culture plays a huge in enabling these thieves to operate without repercussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a new problem. Food deserts are a real problem, and then this is the flip side.

I wish I had a solution.

The solution is for the people in that food desert to get their neighbors to stop shoplifting and robbing the places they count on for food.

Exactly. I have very little sympathy for this issue. The article states that shoplifting and the inability to keep reliable staff is the biggest hurdle to opening more grocery stores. That is a self induced problem that can only be fixed within the culture, not by posting a million cops and whining about racism.

So you expecting the law abiding citizens in these neighborhoods to stop crime, not the police? This is ridiculous. I am not sure what the solution is but I am sure it is not asking someone who is stuck in a cycle of poverty to police their neighbors.

At first I thought the comment about the food card and revoking the ability to shop if caught shoplifting was odd but then I remembered I am a Costco member and I pay $55 a year for the privilege of being treated like a shop lifter and having my bag checked when I leave. So maybe it isn't so out there.

I don't understand this. I hear sooo much about how police disproportionately target AA communities ("look at the arrest/incarceration rate for blacks!!!" and other such comments"). What exactly is it that you want? Do you want the police to be there but not arrest if a crime is committed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a food desert in Baltimore. Most people bought enough for a day or two from convenience stores in the neighborhood. These foods were either pre-cooked or highly marked up. Either way, they were all junk food and typically not fresh. The store owners were all Korean and highly suspicious of shoplifting and robbery by the AA customers. No, they didn't seem capable or interested in telling us apart. So my mom refused to patronize them.
We didn't have a car so on Saturday, the trip from our neighborhood to one with a Giant took half the day. When my mom became very ill in my mid-teens, that became my responsibility. Time I could have spent studying or working was devoted to obtaining bread, milk, and other basic staples. I know it impacted me academically.
As an adult, I've insisted on decent grocery stores nearby as a non negotiable in selecting where to live. Very disappointed with Safeway even in the suburbs. Rotten food is commonly left on shelves.

I recently saw what a luxury/privilege it is to live near a good food store. I was recently hungry near the Woodbridge library and stopped by the market. The healthiest meal I put together was some peanuts, a banana and iced tea and a small bag of potato chips (for the fatty, filling calories) that came out to $5+. That showed me of how good I have it to be able to walk three minutes to the corner market for fresh last-minute ingredients like a red onion, cilantro or potatoes. Thinking of how often I pop in the neighborhood shop for a little bit of this or that, I am so glad/grateful to have the luxury.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And if Safeway vacates the locations? Any other stores willing to rent the site? http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=38a223ea1111497c84348dda487b2ad1&extent=-77.1937,38.7884,-76.8572,39.0014

If Safeway can't get reliable employees at a location what can they do?

I wonder if Safeway is being contractually required by the District to meet certain percentages for their employees (a certain perfectage must be from a certain ward, a certain percentage must be union, etc.). When I worked with the City and other developers, including grocery stores, DC always tries to force the developer/ store to agree to these conditions in order to get their permits. PG County was worse. Then you run into the problem of not having enough of a pool of qualified applicants that meet those requirements. I once worked on a deal for a housing mixed use development and D.C. Wanted the developer to basically GIVE a certain number of townhomes in the development under a program for ward Eight residents who were employed, qualified as low income, and met other qualifications. Marion Barry was on the deal because he was on city council at the time. We had so much neighborhood demand for these units, so we hired a third party to screen applicants to make sure it was fair and showed no impropriety. There were 50 units, we couldn't even find 10 applicants that were qualified. We asked the city to change their restrictions, they said no, it killed the entire deal. So no one got those low income units and the development Deal died. I still can't believe the District basically overplayed its hand and was so unreasonable, and residents didn't get anything.

A food desert should be a HUGE concern for DC. There is no excuse for DC not to make it easier for their most vulnerable populations.

[Anonymous]

I remember studying this issue when I was at school years ago. Other than the crime/shoplifting mentioned already, what hasn't been pointed out that in the food deserts the population that would actually shop at the markets for ordinary, everyday groceries, isn't large enough to support a typical supermarket. So many residents of these food deserts don't cook and are happy to consume only fast food / processed prepared food. The produce and even meats stocked by a typical supermarket would quickly go to waste. A lot of dry goods would sit on the shelves forever. So turnover is an issue, along with the crime/shoplifting.

I do feel bad for the minority of residents who would benefit from a proper supermarket close by. Other than local governments subsidizing supermarkets there isn't an easy solution to this problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember studying this issue when I was at school years ago. Other than the crime/shoplifting mentioned already, what hasn't been pointed out that in the food deserts the population that would actually shop at the markets for ordinary, everyday groceries, isn't large enough to support a typical supermarket. So many residents of these food deserts don't cook and are happy to consume only fast food / processed prepared food. The produce and even meats stocked by a typical supermarket would quickly go to waste. A lot of dry goods would sit on the shelves forever. So turnover is an issue, along with the crime/shoplifting.

I do feel bad for the minority of residents who would benefit from a proper supermarket close by. Other than local governments subsidizing supermarkets there isn't an easy solution to this problem.

When you grow up in a good desert with access to only fast food and no produce, and a parent working three jobs to pay for rent and can't teach you how to cook...how are you supposed to know how to shop in a regular grocery store, what to buy, and what to do with it?

It's a societal cycle, along with the shoplifting issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember studying this issue when I was at school years ago. Other than the crime/shoplifting mentioned already, what hasn't been pointed out that in the food deserts the population that would actually shop at the markets for ordinary, everyday groceries, isn't large enough to support a typical supermarket. So many residents of these food deserts don't cook and are happy to consume only fast food / processed prepared food. The produce and even meats stocked by a typical supermarket would quickly go to waste. A lot of dry goods would sit on the shelves forever. So turnover is an issue, along with the crime/shoplifting.

I do feel bad for the minority of residents who would benefit from a proper supermarket close by. Other than local governments subsidizing supermarkets there isn't an easy solution to this problem.

When you grow up in a good desert with access to only fast food and no produce, and a parent working three jobs to pay for rent and can't teach you how to cook...how are you supposed to know how to shop in a regular grocery store, what to buy, and what to do with it?

It's a societal cycle, along with the shoplifting issue.

Stop infanizing low income people, they're actually capable of learning things on their own. They're poor, not idiotic. And yes, the internet makes this exponentially easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a food desert in Baltimore. Most people bought enough for a day or two from convenience stores in the neighborhood. These foods were either pre-cooked or highly marked up. Either way, they were all junk food and typically not fresh. The store owners were all Korean and highly suspicious of shoplifting and robbery by the AA customers. No, they didn't seem capable or interested in telling us apart. So my mom refused to patronize them.
We didn't have a car so on Saturday, the trip from our neighborhood to one with a Giant took half the day. When my mom became very ill in my mid-teens, that became my responsibility. Time I could have spent studying or working was devoted to obtaining bread, milk, and other basic staples. I know it impacted me academically.
As an adult, I've insisted on decent grocery stores nearby as a non negotiable in selecting where to live. Very disappointed with Safeway even in the suburbs. Rotten food is commonly left on shelves.

I recently saw what a luxury/privilege it is to live near a good food store. I was recently hungry near the Woodbridge library and stopped by the market. The healthiest meal I put together was some peanuts, a banana and iced tea and a small bag of potato chips (for the fatty, filling calories) that came out to $5+. That showed me of how good I have it to be able to walk three minutes to the corner market for fresh last-minute ingredients like a red onion, cilantro or potatoes. Thinking of how often I pop in the neighborhood shop for a little bit of this or that, I am so glad/grateful to have the luxury.

I call bullshit. There is a great community grocery store (really nice) within 3 blocks of where you were. If you wanted something even quicker, there is a Zeke's Coffee. You could have grabbed something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It would be complex, but if some of the funds allocated to food stamps were redirected to subsidizing supermarkets that locate in poorer neighborhoods, it might attract new business without taking any food from the poorer people (since the reduction in food stamps would be offset with cheaper supermarket prices.)

This is a great idea -- and you could take it steps farther to find ways to encourage people on food stamps to learn about nutrition, use their allocated funds wisely, learn to cook, etc.

(I'll just sit here waiting for others to scream at me for how -ist I am. I know it is coming).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would be complex, but if some of the funds allocated to food stamps were redirected to subsidizing supermarkets that locate in poorer neighborhoods, it might attract new business without taking any food from the poorer people (since the reduction in food stamps would be offset with cheaper supermarket prices.)

This is a great idea -- and you could take it steps farther to find ways to encourage people on food stamps to learn about nutrition, use their allocated funds wisely, learn to cook, etc.

(I'll just sit here waiting for others to scream at me for how -ist I am. I know it is coming).

Actually in DC, you can use your food stamps at farmer's markets, which I think is amazing. I live in Brookland and people definitely take advantage of it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would be complex, but if some of the funds allocated to food stamps were redirected to subsidizing supermarkets that locate in poorer neighborhoods, it might attract new business without taking any food from the poorer people (since the reduction in food stamps would be offset with cheaper supermarket prices.)

This is a great idea -- and you could take it steps farther to find ways to encourage people on food stamps to learn about nutrition, use their allocated funds wisely, learn to cook, etc.

(I'll just sit here waiting for others to scream at me for how -ist I am. I know it is coming).

Actually in DC, you can use your food stamps at farmer's markets, which I think is amazing. I live in Brookland and people definitely take advantage of it!

I guess that's good, but farmers' markets aren't exactly inexpensive or cost-efficient. I am happy that people on food stamps can buy fresh produce, but it seems like they could get more for their money without the hipster mark up.

[Anonymous]

Poor people have always eaten badly. That has always been true throughout history anywhere in the world. Fine, go ahead and point out the exception in this person or that person, but it is only what it is, an exception.

The idea that if you only "educate" the poor they'll magically start eating much better is wishful thinking. There are many reasons why the poor tend to eat badly and supermarket access is just one of many factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a new problem. Food deserts are a real problem, and then this is the flip side.

I wish I had a solution.

The solution is for the people in that food desert to get their neighbors to stop shoplifting and robbing the places they count on for food.

Exactly. I have very little sympathy for this issue. The article states that shoplifting and the inability to keep reliable staff is the biggest hurdle to opening more grocery stores. That is a self induced problem that can only be fixed within the culture, not by posting a million cops and whining about racism.

So you expecting the law abiding citizens in these neighborhoods to stop crime, not the police? This is ridiculous. I am not sure what the solution is but I am sure it is not asking someone who is stuck in a cycle of poverty to police their neighbors.

At first I thought the comment about the food card and revoking the ability to shop if caught shoplifting was odd but then I remembered I am a Costco member and I pay $55 a year for the privilege of being treated like a shop lifter and having my bag checked when I leave. So maybe it isn't so out there.

I don't understand this. I hear sooo much about how police disproportionately target AA communities ("look at the arrest/incarceration rate for blacks!!!" and other such comments"). What exactly is it that you want? Do you want the police to be there but not arrest if a crime is committed?

To not shoot 12 year old kids on sight would be a good start.