This may seem an obvious point...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I think I know why everyone on this particular board comes across as defensive and embittered.

We are all, somewhat, expected to justify not moving to the suburbs "for the good of our children," (or, as I like to think of it, move to the suburbs so our children can huff glue in a garage and drive drunk to prom and be abysmally bored), all the damn time. To everyone.

The myth of the suburban school experience is really strong. I never went to a suburban school myself (and I'm sure some immensely clever poster will chime in here about how they can tell that)--but I have to wonder. What, exactly, besides giant sports fields and parking lots, do these mythical burb schools have?

I can tell you what they don't have...they don't have a lot of minorities which is the very definition of a utopian society to a lotta folks.

That's totally ridiculous. When I think about the "suburbs" I think of Takoma Park, as do many people. Montgomery Blair is very diverse.

Anyway, OP, you are pretty defensive. There is no one mythical suburb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm a relatively satisfied DCPS parent but let's not gloss over all the flaws in DC public education. DCPS is an inefficient bureaucratic mess and the various DC government agencies with some responsibility/oversight of schools are as deeply flawed as DC government in general. It may be better than the 80s and 90s but it's far from optimal. Charters needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis which has strengths and weaknesses.

I am the OP and I agree with that, I just think those issues probably exist in burbs as well.

Not really. The suburban schools districts will generally be less bureaucratic and more functional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um.... are yall serious

once you take out the white kids/closely correlated high SES in DCPS.... DCPS is a shitshow

I mean really if you aren't Wilson pyramid or chartered out NOONE is sticking with DCPS unless you are poor and can't move

Look at the test scores for crying out loud

you should pay closer attention to the demographic shift well underway in DC. DC is getting whiter and more affluent. You can't just take that out of the equation because it's growing faster than any other demographic in DC.

There is a sizable achievement gap and problems for students living in urban poverty. You're dead wrong to assume that no one is sticking with DCPS.

There are more white, affluent families moving to and staying in the city. But there are also the same amount of Latino families coming, and they have more children. So while the number of white families is increasing, the percentage is not rising as much or as fast.

according to Urban Institute both the white and Hispanic populations are expected to grow at an equal level over the next 15 years as a percentage of population. Percentage of black population expected to fall.

Is that for the district itself or for the greater DC area?

Anecdotally it seems like latinos are moving out of the district into the suburbs, partly for affordability reasons. If you are saying that there is net latino migration into the district i am surprised to hear it. Whites net moving in and blacks net moving out, yes, that's well known.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:um.... are yall serious

once you take out the white kids/closely correlated high SES in DCPS.... DCPS is a shitshow

I mean really if you aren't Wilson pyramid or chartered out NOONE is sticking with DCPS unless you are poor and can't move

Look at the test scores for crying out loud

Thank you!

Why are people playing dense? Suburban schools=better behaved students, safer schools and surroundings, more motivated kids. A less stressed experience. Being a teen is agonizing enough for some. Why add the crazy, unorganized madness of DCPS schools and students?

Oh yeah, more organized sports and structure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm a relatively satisfied DCPS parent but let's not gloss over all the flaws in DC public education. DCPS is an inefficient bureaucratic mess and the various DC government agencies with some responsibility/oversight of schools are as deeply flawed as DC government in general. It may be better than the 80s and 90s but it's far from optimal. Charters needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis which has strengths and weaknesses.

I am the OP and I agree with that, I just think those issues probably exist in burbs as well.

Not really. The suburban schools districts will generally be less bureaucratic and more functional.

Thank you! Much much more functional.

[Anonymous]

I'm guessing that well-resourced suburban school systems are far less inclined to push parents around than DC public, because they have every reason to expect parents to push back (obvious point). E.g. when I politely asked if my children could opt out of mandatory non-immersion language classes at our DCPS in the single language taught (because we speak another at home) at no cost to the school, including in staff time, the world languages central team came down on us like a ton of bricks. It's standard for DC public schools to force all students to study a language they teach, even if a student speaks, reads and writes another world language well for their age, and the family is against adding a third language. Not so in Fairfax, MoCo or Arlington. Talking to the their world language coordinators was like landing on a verdant planet after leaving Tatooine or Jaku. We were told that the suburban school districts actively build on "family language resources," at every step of the way, en route to students earning top scores on AP and IB language exams testing a language spoken at home. Better planning and greater flexibility will surely come to DC public over time, as more parents challenge (politely or not).




.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I think I know why everyone on this particular board comes across as defensive and embittered.

We are all, somewhat, expected to justify not moving to the suburbs "for the good of our children," (or, as I like to think of it, move to the suburbs so our children can huff glue in a garage and drive drunk to prom and be abysmally bored), all the damn time. To everyone.

The myth of the suburban school experience is really strong. I never went to a suburban school myself (and I'm sure some immensely clever poster will chime in here about how they can tell that)--but I have to wonder. What, exactly, besides giant sports fields and parking lots, do these mythical burb schools have?

I can tell you what they don't have...they don't have a lot of minorities which is the very definition of a utopian society to a lotta folks.

That's totally ridiculous. When I think about the "suburbs" I think of Takoma Park, as do many people. Montgomery Blair is very diverse.

Anyway, OP, you are pretty defensive. There is no one mythical suburb.

I didn't write that minorities comment and I'm not that denfensive. I just grew up in a city and always wanted the same for my children. But I am also perfectly willing to admit that I think I might prefer tpms over deal and Blair over Wilson. The choice is staring us in the face right now and I feel pretty disillusioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm guessing that well-resourced suburban school systems are far less inclined to push parents around than DC public, because they have every reason to expect parents to push back (obvious point). E.g. when I politely asked if my children could opt out of mandatory non-immersion language classes at our DCPS in the single language taught (because we speak another at home) at no cost to the school, including in staff time, the world languages central team came down on us like a ton of bricks. It's standard for DC public schools to force all students to study a language they teach, even if a student speaks, reads and writes another world language well for their age, and the family is against adding a third language. Not so in Fairfax, MoCo or Arlington. Talking to the their world language coordinators was like landing on a verdant planet after leaving Tatooine or Jaku. We were told that the suburban school districts actively build on "family language resources," at every step of the way, en route to students earning top scores on AP and IB language exams testing a language spoken at home. Better planning and greater flexibility will surely come to DC public over time, as more parents challenge (politely or not).

Yes, DPCPS digs in its heels over every little thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um.... are yall serious

once you take out the white kids/closely correlated high SES in DCPS.... DCPS is a shitshow

I mean really if you aren't Wilson pyramid or chartered out NOONE is sticking with DCPS unless you are poor and can't move

Look at the test scores for crying out loud

you should pay closer attention to the demographic shift well underway in DC. DC is getting whiter and more affluent. You can't just take that out of the equation because it's growing faster than any other demographic in DC.

There is a sizable achievement gap and problems for students living in urban poverty. You're dead wrong to assume that no one is sticking with DCPS.

There are more white, affluent families moving to and staying in the city. But there are also the same amount of Latino families coming, and they have more children. So while the number of white families is increasing, the percentage is not rising as much or as fast.

according to Urban Institute both the white and Hispanic populations are expected to grow at an equal level over the next 15 years as a percentage of population. Percentage of black population expected to fall.

Is that for the district itself or for the greater DC area?

Anecdotally it seems like latinos are moving out of the district into the suburbs, partly for affordability reasons. If you are saying that there is net latino migration into the district i am surprised to hear it. Whites net moving in and blacks net moving out, yes, that's well known.

UI didn't distinguish city vs region but the projections are based on current distribution. That can certainly change over time, although 15 years isn't that long of period and you'd be more likely to see incremental rather than dramatic shifts

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm guessing that well-resourced suburban school systems are far less inclined to push parents around than DC public, because they have every reason to expect parents to push back (obvious point). E.g. when I politely asked if my children could opt out of mandatory non-immersion language classes at our DCPS in the single language taught (because we speak another at home) at no cost to the school, including in staff time, the world languages central team came down on us like a ton of bricks. It's standard for DC public schools to force all students to study a language they teach, even if a student speaks, reads and writes another world language well for their age, and the family is against adding a third language. Not so in Fairfax, MoCo or Arlington. Talking to the their world language coordinators was like landing on a verdant planet after leaving Tatooine or Jaku. We were told that the suburban school districts actively build on "family language resources," at every step of the way, en route to students earning top scores on AP and IB language exams testing a language spoken at home. Better planning and greater flexibility will surely come to DC public over time, as more parents challenge (politely or not).

What did you propose your kids do while all their classmates were participating in language class? Who was going to watch them? Why were you against your kid taking some lessons in a third language?

[Anonymous]

I thin the language people at DCPS fell super-empowered now that it is mandatory for everyone to take a language -- even though it is ridiculous to teach a second language to students who are not able to read and write English (above elementary school). They want to enrich ALL students and your children are going to get the same damn enrichment that everyone else is subjected to!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um.... are yall serious

once you take out the white kids/closely correlated high SES in DCPS.... DCPS is a shitshow

I mean really if you aren't Wilson pyramid or chartered out NOONE is sticking with DCPS unless you are poor and can't move

Look at the test scores for crying out loud

you should pay closer attention to the demographic shift well underway in DC. DC is getting whiter and more affluent. You can't just take that out of the equation because it's growing faster than any other demographic in DC.

There is a sizable achievement gap and problems for students living in urban poverty. You're dead wrong to assume that no one is sticking with DCPS.

There are more white, affluent families moving to and staying in the city. But there are also the same amount of Latino families coming, and they have more children. So while the number of white families is increasing, the percentage is not rising as much or as fast.

according to Urban Institute both the white and Hispanic populations are expected to grow at an equal level over the next 15 years as a percentage of population. Percentage of black population expected to fall.

Is that for the district itself or for the greater DC area?

Anecdotally it seems like latinos are moving out of the district into the suburbs, partly for affordability reasons. If you are saying that there is net latino migration into the district i am surprised to hear it. Whites net moving in and blacks net moving out, yes, that's well known.

UI didn't distinguish city vs region but the projections are based on current distribution. That can certainly change over time, although 15 years isn't that long of period and you'd be more likely to see incremental rather than dramatic shifts

PP here, thanks for clarifying, and in the meantime i tried to search the UI website but couldn't find info on this.

I think for this thread and many similar discussions the distinction of district versus greater DMV area is important. Anecdotally I have heard from people who work with latinos in DC, social workers in education and affordable housing, that latinos are moving from expensive parts of DC to the few remaining cheaper areas of NW and NE DC and out of DC to the suburbs, especially PG county and north/eastern MoCo. The majority of latinos arriving in the DC area are relatively poor so DC itself is increasingly closed off to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:um.... are yall serious

once you take out the white kids/closely correlated high SES in DCPS.... DCPS is a shitshow

I mean really if you aren't Wilson pyramid or chartered out NOONE is sticking with DCPS unless you are poor and can't move

Look at the test scores for crying out loud

you should pay closer attention to the demographic shift well underway in DC. DC is getting whiter and more affluent. You can't just take that out of the equation because it's growing faster than any other demographic in DC.

There is a sizable achievement gap and problems for students living in urban poverty. You're dead wrong to assume that no one is sticking with DCPS.

There are more white, affluent families moving to and staying in the city. But there are also the same amount of Latino families coming, and they have more children. So while the number of white families is increasing, the percentage is not rising as much or as fast.

according to Urban Institute both the white and Hispanic populations are expected to grow at an equal level over the next 15 years as a percentage of population. Percentage of black population expected to fall.

Is that for the district itself or for the greater DC area?

Anecdotally it seems like latinos are moving out of the district into the suburbs, partly for affordability reasons. If you are saying that there is net latino migration into the district i am surprised to hear it. Whites net moving in and blacks net moving out, yes, that's well known.

UI didn't distinguish city vs region but the projections are based on current distribution. That can certainly change over time, although 15 years isn't that long of period and you'd be more likely to see incremental rather than dramatic shifts

PP here, thanks for clarifying, and in the meantime i tried to search the UI website but couldn't find info on this.

I think for this thread and many similar discussions the distinction of district versus greater DMV area is important. Anecdotally I have heard from people who work with latinos in DC, social workers in education and affordable housing, that latinos are moving from expensive parts of DC to the few remaining cheaper areas of NW and NE DC and out of DC to the suburbs, especially PG county and north/eastern MoCo. The majority of latinos arriving in the DC area are relatively poor so DC itself is increasingly closed off to them.

http://apps.urban.org/features/mapping-americas-futures/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm guessing that well-resourced suburban school systems are far less inclined to push parents around than DC public, because they have every reason to expect parents to push back (obvious point). E.g. when I politely asked if my children could opt out of mandatory non-immersion language classes at our DCPS in the single language taught (because we speak another at home) at no cost to the school, including in staff time, the world languages central team came down on us like a ton of bricks. It's standard for DC public schools to force all students to study a language they teach, even if a student speaks, reads and writes another world language well for their age, and the family is against adding a third language. Not so in Fairfax, MoCo or Arlington. Talking to the their world language coordinators was like landing on a verdant planet after leaving Tatooine or Jaku. We were told that the suburban school districts actively build on "family language resources," at every step of the way, en route to students earning top scores on AP and IB language exams testing a language spoken at home. Better planning and greater flexibility will surely come to DC public over time, as more parents challenge (politely or not).

What did you propose your kids do while all their classmates were participating in language class? Who was going to watch them? Why were you against your kid taking some lessons in a third language?

We proposed that we extract our kids from the language classes to tutor them in English. We believe that they need more English instruction than monolingual peers get at school, not instruction in a third language with no connection to the very difficult language we speak at home (DCPS won't provide us with ELL services during the language classes, or any other time, because they consider our kids' English to be a little too good). When OSSE got involved, DCPS backed down. We've taken our kids out the language classes all year (staying within the school building), and will continue to do so as long as they're in DCPS. We don't mind, but the writing is on the wall for us to bail from relatively inflexible DC public after ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm guessing that well-resourced suburban school systems are far less inclined to push parents around than DC public, because they have every reason to expect parents to push back (obvious point). E.g. when I politely asked if my children could opt out of mandatory non-immersion language classes at our DCPS in the single language taught (because we speak another at home) at no cost to the school, including in staff time, the world languages central team came down on us like a ton of bricks. It's standard for DC public schools to force all students to study a language they teach, even if a student speaks, reads and writes another world language well for their age, and the family is against adding a third language. Not so in Fairfax, MoCo or Arlington. Talking to the their world language coordinators was like landing on a verdant planet after leaving Tatooine or Jaku. We were told that the suburban school districts actively build on "family language resources," at every step of the way, en route to students earning top scores on AP and IB language exams testing a language spoken at home. Better planning and greater flexibility will surely come to DC public over time, as more parents challenge (politely or not).

What did you propose your kids do while all their classmates were participating in language class? Who was going to watch them? Why were you against your kid taking some lessons in a third language?

We proposed that we extract our kids from the language classes to tutor them in English. We believe that they need more English instruction than monolingual peers get at school, not instruction in a third language with no connection to the very difficult language we speak at home (DCPS won't provide us with ELL services during the language classes, or any other time, because they consider our kids' English to be a little too good). When OSSE got involved, DCPS backed down. We've taken our kids out the language classes all year (staying within the school building), and will continue to do so as long as they're in DCPS. We don't mind, but the writing is on the wall for us to bail from relatively inflexible DC public after ES.

I think there's a mis-perception that the suburban schools cater to parents .... I think it's more of a case of you know what you're getting & take it there. All of the choice and charters in DC -- and the buying of 'extras' via PTA dues and auctions -- add to the fire that things should be more malleable. At the MoCo school I went to & where the next generation of my niece/nephew go to - they sign up for their language course & take it.