School Design and White Families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We send our son to a progressive private in DC. Every time I think we might transfer him back to public (janney, later Deal), we balk. Why: the *** curriculum ** at his school is so much richer than what DCPS has to offer -- even at Janney, even at Deal.

So then we thought, why not Latin? because on paper, it sounds like DH's alma mater, which he loved so much (Columbia College). Close, but still not quite. Too wide a range of students, which has the effect of watering down the work assigned in classes that sound really good on paper.

Please describe the highlights of the curriculum that you believe is missing. Thanks.

Ds's school has a broader range of Lit that starts earlier and, judging on the finished work product, seems to delve deeper into the elements of the book. I only know what Latin chooses to display/share though.

I was impressed with the reading list provided by Latin. I was mostly unimpressed, with some bright exceptions, with the middle school students' work related to these books.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Schools will become more racially integrated when cost of living rises even further throughout the District.

That made me do a double-take, but if you're right it is true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It seems clear white families want other white families in their schools and are only willing to send their children so far from their segregated enclaves. There is a hard chicken and egg logic to this, but it's not just this.

My child is at one of the charters on that chart of most diverse schools. It's not only white families who want "other white families" in their schools. Almost every middle class black and Hispanic parent I have spoken with has specifically mentioned the diversity of the school being important for their children. There's a lot of research about how richer black families live in much poorer neighborhoods than whites at the same income level. White families aren't the only ones who don't want their kids in classes dominated by children from low income homes and the problems that they bring with them (generally, of course not all).

Anonymous wrote: no, white families want their kids around other committed children who come from stable, middle to high SES families. Im DC that correlates with race.

That's actually much less true in DC than in most other big cities. DC has probably the largest number of middle and upper middle class black families of any city in the country, except maybe Atlanta. Convincing those families, who have traditionally mostly moved out of the city or gone private (discussed in another discussion) to come back to DCPS and charters would be a huge benefit for diversity of both race and income.

I'm going to ignore OP's clarion call to white families exclusively and respond re: the above, which I really, really agree with. DCPS should focus on attracting high SES/educated AA families back into DCPS. We are a black family, both with doctoral degrees and middle/upper-middle class. However, most of our peers have their kids in private, both in DC and MD. Yes, there are a few such families scattered at schools like Eaton and Shepherd, but there's the potential for many more. (I'd say the same for educated Latino and Asian families, although it seems there are smaller numbers of these in DC--hopefully that will change in the future.)

I don't think simply introducing the touchy-feely curriculum du jour, organic farms, etc., will be enough to lure these families back to DCPS without a guarantee of the academic rigor they demand. Focusing on STEM, gifted and talented programs, etc. and specific outreach to these communities might make a difference--if such changes could ever be implemented.

Actually there are quite a few kids like that in the middle school at BASIS, and in the early grades at Mann - but the ones at Mann tend to leave for privates in the big admission years - 4th for NCS and STA for example. My child lost their two best friends that year to STA.

The privates are really focused on "diversity," but only a certain kind - kids who are well behaved and can hack it academically. As parents of high performing minoritykids at BASIS, we have thought about going that route for high school - plenty do, because if you have good grades, at that point the only hook diversity plus high performance gets the private school is probably better college admission stats.... and it gets you a ton of financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a white parent - and honestly, I don't care what white parents want.

I care what upper middle class parents want. I wish you could sort by SES of 150+

+1. Pretty obvious, yet somehow very mysterious to OP and the race-obsession crew.

Can't you get this by 1) moving to a wealthier neighborhood or 2) going private?

What's magical about $150k? Why do you assume that middle and working class families don't value education? All parents at your kid's school need to have graduate degrees?

We're only 125 and I'm a SAHM, so I doubt we'd make the cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to be able to have a frank discussion of race. There's too much crap from all directions to be able to do that, so I don't think much is going to change very quickly.

Well, it would be short conversation and a tired one at that.

The majority of non-white people in DC are poor.
The majority of white people in DC are rich.

The majority of rich, white people are very likely to be just fine with diversity as long it is racial diversity and not economic diversity.
Economic diversity brings too many challenges with it to the classroom.

Troll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are a few ideas:

1. Strong girls sports, such as soccer, swimming, softball, and volleyball, not just basketball and bowling (seriously, this is offered in DCPS)

2. English/literature classes that don't JUST focus on authors of color, which must be the new way to supposedly get students of color to read. However,an sole focus on this can become off-putting to white students, as they are always in a bad light. There should be a variety of books read and discussed.

3. No social promotion in any grade. Nothing like accountability to get all students up to speed.

4. Foreign language classes daily.

Very good ideas...

+1 . In general, a very strong focus on academic preparation and accountability for bad behavior.

Is this really what white or high SES families want?

My son attends a rising DCPS elementary school in the center of the city. It is diverse in every possible way: racially, religiously socioeconomically. We certainly offer girls' sports (soccer, track), as do the elementary schools surrounding us. However, after a certain age, high SES kids are in club soccer, so school soccer doesn't really matter

Retaining kids has been shown by the research not to help. If your child didn't do well in fourth grade, you need to figure out what's wrong, not just repeat the same approach that didn't work the first time.

Our program is dual language. DCPS offers seven language immersion programs at the elementary level, and two at the middle school level. There are four charters with immersion. These schools do attract more high SES families, but the offerings are already there. I agree that language every day in every school would be great, but most private schools and schools in the suburbs don't offer that at the elementary level. Attracting bilingual teachers generally requires more resources than small schools have.

I see mixed evidence that white or high SES families want lots of academics in the lower grades. The research really supports play-based preschools and discourages early literacy, especially when it comes at the expense of social skills. Private schools are generally known to be less academically rigorous in the lower grades.

I see no evidence that white high SES families demand more accountability for behavior among their kids. Quite a few high SES white families at our school have badly behaved boys in preschool. The parents do not seem to lean on them very hard. So why do white high SES kids end up behaving well? One is expectations from faculty. The Washington Post article last year on the tendency to suspend boys of color from pre-school made it clear that teachers treat the same behaviors differently, depending on the student.

Another difference, however, is exposure. High SES families have routines that are imposed by the parents' work schedules. They take their children to theater performances, where the children observe other people sitting quietly and listening to the artists. They take their children on planes, where the children observe adults sitting quietly and taking directions from flight attendants. They see their parents having calm give and take conversations with other adults. Their parents have time to be patient with them if they melt down in the morning, because they have professional jobs from which they won't be fired for being ten minutes late. The kids internalize these behaviors.

That's why KIPP only works so far. They impose standards externally. The kids don't get to internalize the standards unless they reap the benefits of things like a quiet classroom, meeting, or performance. KIPP schools also have a broken windows theory of education. They punish kids for things that would be ignored or even encouraged in a progressive or high SES school, where kids are being raised to see themselves as future leaders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a white parent - and honestly, I don't care what white parents want.

I care what upper middle class parents want. I wish you could sort by SES of 150+

This. People use white as code for high SES, which is not always true. Lots of people of color for the bill too.

[Anonymous]

The reason PP wants kids retained if they're not working at grade level isn't for their benefit - it's for his/her kid. We don't want kids in the class who can't do the work - because that slows down the class and our kids aren't engaged and aren't learning to work hard.

We want tracking - but OP is asking what a school has to offer so that higher SES parents will enroll their children in schools with (economically and racially) integrated classrooms. I don't think there is anything that would do this.

[Anonymous]

The race stuff I expect from you people. The insistence on high ses is really disturbing.

Do you live in this world at all? Are you aware of how depressed wages are? Do you just have no experience with anyone outside of your class?

My child went from a high ses school where she was a minority and bullied mercilessly, to a charter where we are the richest family in our class. There's no bullying at that charter. And no family with a kid there who doesn't value learning. Do you really think a low-income family who is willing to drag their kids all the way across the city doesn't care about learning? Do you really think all rich families have smart and engaged children?

If I wanted to send my kid to school with rich children, we would have done private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We send our son to a progressive private in DC. Every time I think we might transfer him back to public (janney, later Deal), we balk. Why: the *** curriculum ** at his school is so much richer than what DCPS has to offer -- even at Janney, even at Deal.

So then we thought, why not Latin? because on paper, it sounds like DH's alma mater, which he loved so much (Columbia College). Close, but still not quite. Too wide a range of students, which has the effect of watering down the work assigned in classes that sound really good on paper.

Your child would be fine at Latin. They have honors and regular classes, and in each the range is not that wide.

Stop with the Latin Boosterism already!! I'm a Latin parent and love the school, but there is a BIG difference between the top and bottom of the classes. Yes, they do have Honors and AP classes but don't be mistaken, they have students with perfect SATs and over 4.0 GPA as well as students with 1.0 GPA. Personally, I think a top student could thrive at Latin, but it is not full of college bound students.

And in HS they are general not in the same small classes. My child graduated from Latin so I am pretty sure I know what HS was like.

[Anonymous]

I think this thread jumped the shark with someone wanting a super exclusive school (quote "none of this banneker, walls type stuff"). The assumption/presumption by some high ses families that their little darling 'is gifted' and would thereby qualify is hilarious. Sure, build that school but it only addresses a small truly qualified group in DC. This thread was what do people by and large want in order to send their kids to public or public charter rather than opt for private or move. As soon as you get into schools that keep as.many people as possible out, I think you've jumped the shark in terms of a workable solution for many. Thats why we liked Latin. It was open to everyone and for us it worked. They just need more schools like that as the demand is so high.

[Anonymous]

I would love to send my kid to Latin... But that would be three schools in three years, and that will be a nightmare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason PP wants kids retained if they're not working at grade level isn't for their benefit - it's for his/her kid. We don't want kids in the class who can't do the work - because that slows down the class and our kids aren't engaged and aren't learning to work hard.

We want tracking - but OP is asking what a school has to offer so that higher SES parents will enroll their children in schools with (economically and racially) integrated classrooms. I don't think there is anything that would do this.

How does passing a child who is "not working at grade level" benefit the child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are a few ideas:

1. Strong girls sports, such as soccer, swimming, softball, and volleyball, not just basketball and bowling (seriously, this is offered in DCPS)

2. English/literature classes that don't JUST focus on authors of color, which must be the new way to supposedly get students of color to read. However,an sole focus on this can become off-putting to white students, as they are always in a bad light. There should be a variety of books read and discussed.

3. No social promotion in any grade. Nothing like accountability to get all students up to speed.

4. Foreign language classes daily.

Very good ideas...

+1 . In general, a very strong focus on academic preparation and accountability for bad behavior.

Is this really what white or high SES families want?

My son attends a rising DCPS elementary school in the center of the city. It is diverse in every possible way: racially, religiously socioeconomically. We certainly offer girls' sports (soccer, track), as do the elementary schools surrounding us. However, after a certain age, high SES kids are in club soccer, so school soccer doesn't really matter

Retaining kids has been shown by the research not to help. If your child didn't do well in fourth grade, you need to figure out what's wrong, not just repeat the same approach that didn't work the first time.

Our program is dual language. DCPS offers seven language immersion programs at the elementary level, and two at the middle school level. There are four charters with immersion. These schools do attract more high SES families, but the offerings are already there. I agree that language every day in every school would be great, but most private schools and schools in the suburbs don't offer that at the elementary level. Attracting bilingual teachers generally requires more resources than small schools have.

I see mixed evidence that white or high SES families want lots of academics in the lower grades. The research really supports play-based preschools and discourages early literacy, especially when it comes at the expense of social skills. Private schools are generally known to be less academically rigorous in the lower grades.

I see no evidence that white high SES families demand more accountability for behavior among their kids. Quite a few high SES white families at our school have badly behaved boys in preschool. The parents do not seem to lean on them very hard. So why do white high SES kids end up behaving well? One is expectations from faculty. The Washington Post article last year on the tendency to suspend boys of color from pre-school made it clear that teachers treat the same behaviors differently, depending on the student.

Another difference, however, is exposure. High SES families have routines that are imposed by the parents' work schedules. They take their children to theater performances, where the children observe other people sitting quietly and listening to the artists. They take their children on planes, where the children observe adults sitting quietly and taking directions from flight attendants. They see their parents having calm give and take conversations with other adults. Their parents have time to be patient with them if they melt down in the morning, because they have professional jobs from which they won't be fired for being ten minutes late. The kids internalize these behaviors.

That's why KIPP only works so far. They impose standards externally. The kids don't get to internalize the standards unless they reap the benefits of things like a quiet classroom, meeting, or performance. KIPP schools also have a broken windows theory of education. They punish kids for things that would be ignored or even encouraged in a progressive or high SES school, where kids are being raised to see themselves as future leaders.

Do you have a child at KIPP? I do, and the bolded is not true. The behavior expectations are reasonable and age appropriate, as well as evenly applied (as opposed to schools that disproportionately punish and suspend/expel black students), they DO have quiet classrooms, and they do encourage children to see themselves as future leaders. Seeing themselves as future leaders is a huge part of the curriculum, and they don't just focus on black leaders or black authors. In the early childhood classrooms behavior was a bit of an issue, but KIPP has supports in place for families that other schools don't to help families implement the kinds of discipline that you're talking about, as well as professionals who can help parents (free of charge) learn effective parenting techniques. Behavior in elementary school is not as big a problem, because the kids have been in school for several years now and are used to the structure and routine - in pre-K many of the kids were being exposed to a structured environment for the very first time, and the adjustment is real. However the pre-K teachers were excellent at handling it, ensured the safety of all the children, and helped the ones who struggled with the adjustment with the support of all of the staff and faculty. Rather than counseling kids out, they work with the families to make the kids successful (the people I know who left are trying to get back in because where they went is not supportive in any way).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are a few ideas:

1. Strong girls sports, such as soccer, swimming, softball, and volleyball, not just basketball and bowling (seriously, this is offered in DCPS)

2. English/literature classes that don't JUST focus on authors of color, which must be the new way to supposedly get students of color to read. However,an sole focus on this can become off-putting to white students, as they are always in a bad light. There should be a variety of books read and discussed.

3. No social promotion in any grade. Nothing like accountability to get all students up to speed.

4. Foreign language classes daily.

Very good ideas...

+1 . In general, a very strong focus on academic preparation and accountability for bad behavior.

I'm a white parent and none of the above matters to me (although I would like my child to be fluent in Spanish by 12th grade). I went to a charter school open house recently and I was really turned off by the narrow focus on "academic excellence" and the negative approach to discipline (all the examples offered were of children being caught doing things wrong). When I think about why I might pull my child from public school, my dealbreakers are overly harsh discipline, drill and kill and test prep academics, not enough recess, and teachers not having enough autonomy in the classroom.