No doing well with Common Core, but we'll with Singapore math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Singapore math is as Common Core as any other CCSS aligned math.

+1

Singapore math is a technique. CC is a set of standards. Some schools use Singapore math to reach the standard. Some use other techniques.

I wonder if the same parents who refuse to understand this are the same ones teaching their kids that Catholics aren't Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

https://www.singaporemath.com/v/sf_pmcctg1a.pdf

This is probably the Common Core edition.

I have used the original Singapore Math for two years and I have not come across the doulbes, not once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If your math skills were that strong, you would have no trouble understanding the value of learning these strategies, especially for kids who don't immediately comprehend it.
Also, the "shortest, most elegant solution" is an appropriate approach once you understand the fundamentals (which is not the same thing as memorizing a bunch of facts and equations. The point of math right now isn't to get to the answer to 3+4 as quickly as possible, it's to understand why 3+4=7, and to understand multiple ways of thinking about the solution so that, when you get more advanced, you're more capable of arriving at the "shortest, most elegant solution."

I don't see the value of the doubles strategies. Because you're confusing the kids. You're giving them 3 different strategies - doubles, count on, tens and ones.

Doubles are useless because a) you can't use them in additions above 10; b) kids already pretty much memorize all the additions within 10; c) they confuse kids who are trained to use tens and ones for adding.

No one uses doubles besides CC. Singapore math doesn't use doubles, Kumon doesn't use doubles, Critical Thinking doesn't use doubles.

My education in math was in Russia. Russia had an excellent math education. We never used doubles. It's looks like a Common Core invention and it's full of crap like this.

Most of the strategies that kids are learning on not common core math strategies. They are just different strategies that are taught in different places. There's no such thing as a CC math strategy. And as a PP noted, Singapore math uses all kinds of math strategies, doubles being one. My cousin, who holds a masters degree in a stem field from carnegie mellon, learned Singapore style math strategies while attending an international school. My cousin has a high regard for some of these math strategies for young kids. It's a hell of a lot better than the rote memorization I grew up with in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Singapore math is as Common Core as any other CCSS aligned math.

+1

Singapore math is a technique. CC is a set of standards. Some schools use Singapore math to reach the standard. Some use other techniques.

I wonder if the same parents who refuse to understand this are the same ones teaching their kids that Catholics aren't Christians.

Well, if all schools who adopted CC are teaching the same strategies, then you can say it's a common curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If your math skills were that strong, you would have no trouble understanding the value of learning these strategies, especially for kids who don't immediately comprehend it.
Also, the "shortest, most elegant solution" is an appropriate approach once you understand the fundamentals (which is not the same thing as memorizing a bunch of facts and equations. The point of math right now isn't to get to the answer to 3+4 as quickly as possible, it's to understand why 3+4=7, and to understand multiple ways of thinking about the solution so that, when you get more advanced, you're more capable of arriving at the "shortest, most elegant solution."

I don't see the value of the doubles strategies. Because you're confusing the kids. You're giving them 3 different strategies - doubles, count on, tens and ones.

Doubles are useless because a) you can't use them in additions above 10; b) kids already pretty much memorize all the additions within 10; c) they confuse kids who are trained to use tens and ones for adding.

No one uses doubles besides CC. Singapore math doesn't use doubles, Kumon doesn't use doubles, Critical Thinking doesn't use doubles.

My education in math was in Russia. Russia had an excellent math education. We never used doubles. It's looks like a Common Core invention and it's full of crap like this.

Singapore Math uses doubles and counting on.

https://www.singaporemath.com/v/sf_pmcctg1a.pdf

Absolutely not! They use counting on at the beginning of first grade. Did you read what you posted? I just cut and pasted from the teacher's guide that you linked. There is no doubles, doubles plus one. The goal is to quickly and accurately know math facts to/from 10 so you can use those to make 10's to solve problems above 10.

Students will probably be able to count on 1, 2, or 3 quickly without using fingers. Fingers can be used if needed to begin with. Note that counting on as a strategy is used only for
adding 1, 2, or 3 in this curriculum. The goal is quick computation, and with adding on greater numbers, it becomes harder to keep track of how many are added on and to know where to
stop without fingers or number lines. Also, adding numbers where the sum is greater than 10 will be taught in the context of the base-10 concept.

So 6 +7 is never taught as a double plus one. It is taught as 7+3 = 10 6-3 +3 so 10 +3 =13!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Singapore Math emphasizes making 10's. So in in one example 8+7 the only choice to solve is doubles plus/minus one. I use Singapore Math with my first grader and he has been taught to see the problem as the 8 needs 2 more to make a 10, 7-2 is 5 so 8+7 = 10+ 5= 15. Now that he is working in the second grade book he has no problem mentally adding by grouping larger numbers into 10's. So 28 + 37, he can rapidly switch to 28+2 = 30, 37-2 =35 so 30 + 35 =65. Or he can switch it to 50+ 15=65. I don't think kids should get marked down because they manipulate the numbers a different way.

Exactly. Tens and ones are most logical and most efficient solution. This is how the rest of the world operates.

You're confusing them with this bs:
8+7= 8+8-1

when the rest of the world teaches them
8+7 =8+2+5

When you get to two digit and three digit numbers, how will your "double" strategy work?
How will you explain this with doubles: 87+11?

Doubles aren't meant to be a strategy for every math problem, they're part of a menu of strategies a student might pick from as they move forward in math to solve a problem. Obviously you're not going to use doubles to solve 87+11, but you might use doubles to solve 47+58: Break down 58 into 3+50+5 and then combine 47+3 to get 50, use doubles to get 50+50=100, then add the 5 to get the answer of 105.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That should be exactly what she knows and has learned in school. Once you know the terminology, it is very simple. Doubles are 4+4, 5+5, etc., which most children learn easily and before other math facts. Counting on, or count plus one, is 4+1, 5+1, etc., which is simply counting one more number. So a double plus one is another way of adding 4+5, by breaking it up into 4+4+1, which is easier for some children.

But why make kids memorize doubles? Why fill their heads with unnecessary terms and strategies? What exactly this whole "double" concept is for? It's useless for additions and useless for multiplication. In multiplication are you going to say to your kids "Doubles times three?"

I came a very strong school of math. And anything that wasn't the shortest, most elegant solution was not accepted in my math classes.

If your math skills were that strong, you would have no trouble understanding the value of learning these strategies, especially for kids who don't immediately comprehend it. Also, the "shortest, most elegant solution" is an appropriate approach once you understand the fundamentals (which is not the same thing as memorizing a bunch of facts and equations. The point of math right now isn't to get to the answer to 3+4 as quickly as possible, it's to understand why 3+4=7, and to understand multiple ways of thinking about the solution so that, when you get more advanced, you're more capable of arriving at the "shortest, most elegant solution."

I think this right here is what most adults have a problem with. Some parents want their kids to get to the most advanced level as quickly as possible, so they don't like it when kids have to spend weeks understanding what should be an easy math concept.

Also, too many adults have the mentality of "this is how I learned it, and it was good enough for me to take calculus in 11th/12th grade so why can't my kids learn it the same way". Well, because even though *you* may have learned it one way and did well doesn't mean many others did. Americans just generally suck at math, including adults, and even our teens these days don't do as well in the critical thinking section of standardized tests compared to other countries:

http://educationbythenumbers.org/content/top-us-students-fare-poorly-international-pisa-test-scores-shanghai-tops-world-finland-slips_693/

"* Stagnation. U.S. scores on PISA exams haven’t improved over the past decade. See here. That’s a bit of a contrast from the NAEP exam where American students have been showing modest improvement. I believe the NAEP exam plays to U.S. strengths of simple equation solving. It has fewer word problems where students have to apply their knowledge to a new circumstance and write their own equations and models."

Common Core "standards" are making the math illiteracy in this country much much worse.


And now we have the test results to show it.

I don't know how you can know that. Most of the states have only recently implemented CC standards, and the article was for the 2012 PISA, and states that in the past decade, math achievement has been stagnant -- from 2002 to 2012 pre-CC. So, that tells me that whatever math standards we had in the past 15 yrs hasn't made those kids who took the 2012 pisa test do any better in math. These kids would be in their early 20's now. So, young adults in the US do more poorly than young adults in a lot of the other countries.

You say CC will make it worse. We don't have the results yet. And no, PARCC results would be comparing apples to oranges since the results in the article are from the PISA test, not PARCC.

In any case, I see my 2nd grader doing basic algebra under CC standards. I don't think I was doing that in 2nd grade. Seems pretty advanced to me.

Why do you think they are hiding PARCC scores for so long? Because they are fucking stellar?

Look at states who have done "Common Core" for a while, like NY and Kentucky. Marginal improvement that has likely topped out. And falling NAEP scores for the first time ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Singapore Math emphasizes making 10's. So in in one example 8+7 the only choice to solve is doubles plus/minus one. I use Singapore Math with my first grader and he has been taught to see the problem as the 8 needs 2 more to make a 10, 7-2 is 5 so 8+7 = 10+ 5= 15. Now that he is working in the second grade book he has no problem mentally adding by grouping larger numbers into 10's. So 28 + 37, he can rapidly switch to 28+2 = 30, 37-2 =35 so 30 + 35 =65. Or he can switch it to 50+ 15=65. I don't think kids should get marked down because they manipulate the numbers a different way.

Exactly. Tens and ones are most logical and most efficient solution. This is how the rest of the world operates.

You're confusing them with this bs:
8+7= 8+8-1

when the rest of the world teaches them
8+7 =8+2+5

When you get to two digit and three digit numbers, how will your "double" strategy work?
How will you explain this with doubles: 87+11?

Doubles and counting on are not ends, they are means. Just strategies for young children while they learn number fluency and begin to become familiar with and memorize math facts. They are not the end goal, just one way of getting there. Start slow to move fast later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

https://www.singaporemath.com/v/sf_pmcctg1a.pdf

This is probably the Common Core edition.

I have used the original Singapore Math for two years and I have not come across the doulbes, not once.

I noticed that there are different types of Singapore math books on the market. Perhaps you are using a different one than other PPs.

I don't know if this is the "official" signapore math website but, here's an example:
https://www.singaporemath.com/v/sf_pmcctg1a.pdf

"..the facts that make 10, doubles (e.g., 4 + 4), and doubles + 1 (e.g., 4 + 5 is the same as double 4 + one more)... help students commit the addition facts to memory"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:but you might use doubles to solve 47+58: Break down 58 into 3+50+5 and then combine 47+3 to get 50, use doubles to get 50+50=100, then add the 5 to get the answer of 105.

My math teacher would be appalled at such a clumsy, inefficient, ridiculous solution. I'd get a C for this in best case scenario.
But in CC worksheets this kind of math is acceptable. That's the problem with the curriculum. This is an example of CC I found on Reddit:

If Common Core was applied to IT

How to replace memory in your computer:

The old way

Power off the computer
Unplug your computer from the power source
Open the computer exposing the motherboard and components
Attach an antistatic strap to your wrist and to the chassis on the computer
Remove the old memory
Install the new memory
Remove the antistatic strap
Replace the cover on the computer
Plug the computer back in and turn the power on and verify the memory is recognized during the POST process

The common core IT way:

Unplug the monitor from the PC, move it as far across the house as possible.
Remove the keyboard and mouse and put it in the top drawer of your office file cabinet.
Power off the computer by flipping the main breaker switch to the entire house.
Fumbling your way in the dark, unplug the computer from the power source and close your eyes and toss it behind you, not paying attention to where it lands.
Open the computer using an acetylene torch.
Once the computer case has cooled down from the torch and you’ve put the fire out on the rug after regaining consciousness from being overcome by toxic burning rug fumes, remove the hard drives, video card, and old memory.
Did we forget to tell you to get a flashlight since the power is out?
Remove the motherboard from the computer and place it on the melted remains of the carpet.
Install the new memory in the motherboard.
Pry the motherboard off the melted carpet and put it back in the computer.
Reinstall the hard drives and video card and connect the power supply back to the motherboard.
Using the torch, weld the cover back to the computer case, taking care not the set the rug on fire again.
Plug the computer back into the power source.
Flip the main breaker switch back on.
Turn on the computer. The resulting surge in power and damage to the computer from the torch will set the rug on fire again, setting the entire room on fire.
Crawl low to the nearest exit and get out of the house.
Call 911.
File a claim with your insurance provider, use the check to repair the house and get a new computer with new memory.
Plug the new computer in and turn the power on and verify the memory is recognized during the POST process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That should be exactly what she knows and has learned in school. Once you know the terminology, it is very simple. Doubles are 4+4, 5+5, etc., which most children learn easily and before other math facts. Counting on, or count plus one, is 4+1, 5+1, etc., which is simply counting one more number. So a double plus one is another way of adding 4+5, by breaking it up into 4+4+1, which is easier for some children.

But why make kids memorize doubles? Why fill their heads with unnecessary terms and strategies? What exactly this whole "double" concept is for? It's useless for additions and useless for multiplication. In multiplication are you going to say to your kids "Doubles times three?"

I came a very strong school of math. And anything that wasn't the shortest, most elegant solution was not accepted in my math classes.

If your math skills were that strong, you would have no trouble understanding the value of learning these strategies, especially for kids who don't immediately comprehend it. Also, the "shortest, most elegant solution" is an appropriate approach once you understand the fundamentals (which is not the same thing as memorizing a bunch of facts and equations. The point of math right now isn't to get to the answer to 3+4 as quickly as possible, it's to understand why 3+4=7, and to understand multiple ways of thinking about the solution so that, when you get more advanced, you're more capable of arriving at the "shortest, most elegant solution."

I think this right here is what most adults have a problem with. Some parents want their kids to get to the most advanced level as quickly as possible, so they don't like it when kids have to spend weeks understanding what should be an easy math concept.

Also, too many adults have the mentality of "this is how I learned it, and it was good enough for me to take calculus in 11th/12th grade so why can't my kids learn it the same way". Well, because even though *you* may have learned it one way and did well doesn't mean many others did. Americans just generally suck at math, including adults, and even our teens these days don't do as well in the critical thinking section of standardized tests compared to other countries:

http://educationbythenumbers.org/content/top-us-students-fare-poorly-international-pisa-test-scores-shanghai-tops-world-finland-slips_693/

"* Stagnation. U.S. scores on PISA exams haven’t improved over the past decade. See here. That’s a bit of a contrast from the NAEP exam where American students have been showing modest improvement. I believe the NAEP exam plays to U.S. strengths of simple equation solving. It has fewer word problems where students have to apply their knowledge to a new circumstance and write their own equations and models."

Common Core "standards" are making the math illiteracy in this country much much worse.


And now we have the test results to show it.

I don't know how you can know that. Most of the states have only recently implemented CC standards, and the article was for the 2012 PISA, and states that in the past decade, math achievement has been stagnant -- from 2002 to 2012 pre-CC. So, that tells me that whatever math standards we had in the past 15 yrs hasn't made those kids who took the 2012 pisa test do any better in math. These kids would be in their early 20's now. So, young adults in the US do more poorly than young adults in a lot of the other countries.

You say CC will make it worse. We don't have the results yet. And no, PARCC results would be comparing apples to oranges since the results in the article are from the PISA test, not PARCC.

In any case, I see my 2nd grader doing basic algebra under CC standards. I don't think I was doing that in 2nd grade. Seems pretty advanced to me.

Why do you think they are hiding PARCC scores for so long? Because they are fucking stellar?

Look at states who have done "Common Core" for a while, like NY and Kentucky. Marginal improvement that has likely topped out. And falling NAEP scores for the first time ever.

Every single change in a curriculum causes standardized test scores to drop. This happened when VA implemented SOL standards, and it is happening with CC standards. That really isn't a surprise. Is there a problem with the curriculum? Probably. Is the issue CC standards? No. Yes, they need to better train the teachers and fix some of the curriculum. To be honest, I think some of the younger grade teachers aren't very strong in their math understanding, either, and this is coming across when they teach CC based standards math.

I don't really care about PARCC scores, especially for ES kids. And your 1st grader isn't even taking PARCC. My 2nd grader just got the MAP scores. 99%Ile. Not bad for learning CC based math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I noticed that there are different types of Singapore math books on the market. Perhaps you are using a different one than other PPs.

I don't know if this is the "official" signapore math website but, here's an example:
https://www.singaporemath.com/v/sf_pmcctg1a.pdf

"..the facts that make 10, doubles (e.g., 4 + 4), and doubles + 1 (e.g., 4 + 5 is the same as double 4 + one more)... help students commit the addition facts to memory"

Singapore Math has come out with a set of books adapted to Common Core. I have not used them and I don't know.

I have used their regular books for elementary school and all the additions are taught using tens and ones. Doubles have never been mentioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:but you might use doubles to solve 47+58: Break down 58 into 3+50+5 and then combine 47+3 to get 50, use doubles to get 50+50=100, then add the 5 to get the answer of 105.

My math teacher would be appalled at such a clumsy, inefficient, ridiculous solution. I'd get a C for this in best case scenario.
But in CC worksheets this kind of math is acceptable. That's the problem with the curriculum. This is an example of CC I found on Reddit:

If Common Core was applied to IT

How to replace memory in your computer:

The old way

Power off the computer
Unplug your computer from the power source
Open the computer exposing the motherboard and components
Attach an antistatic strap to your wrist and to the chassis on the computer
Remove the old memory
Install the new memory
Remove the antistatic strap
Replace the cover on the computer
Plug the computer back in and turn the power on and verify the memory is recognized during the POST process

The common core IT way:

Unplug the monitor from the PC, move it as far across the house as possible.
Remove the keyboard and mouse and put it in the top drawer of your office file cabinet.
Power off the computer by flipping the main breaker switch to the entire house.
Fumbling your way in the dark, unplug the computer from the power source and close your eyes and toss it behind you, not paying attention to where it lands.
Open the computer using an acetylene torch.
Once the computer case has cooled down from the torch and you’ve put the fire out on the rug after regaining consciousness from being overcome by toxic burning rug fumes, remove the hard drives, video card, and old memory.
Did we forget to tell you to get a flashlight since the power is out?
Remove the motherboard from the computer and place it on the melted remains of the carpet.
Install the new memory in the motherboard.
Pry the motherboard off the melted carpet and put it back in the computer.
Reinstall the hard drives and video card and connect the power supply back to the motherboard.
Using the torch, weld the cover back to the computer case, taking care not the set the rug on fire again.
Plug the computer back into the power source.
Flip the main breaker switch back on.
Turn on the computer. The resulting surge in power and damage to the computer from the torch will set the rug on fire again, setting the entire room on fire.
Crawl low to the nearest exit and get out of the house.
Call 911.
File a claim with your insurance provider, use the check to repair the house and get a new computer with new memory.
Plug the new computer in and turn the power on and verify the memory is recognized during the POST process.

If I were older than 9 doing math this way, I might agree. But not for a 6/7 yr old. BTW, I am in IT, and when I try to explain to my ES kids what I do for a living, my explanation is long, much longer than how I would explain it to an adult. Why? Because young kids don't understand much about computers or business, just like they have limited exposure to number sense.

[Anonymous]

If you take a math test that's based on the same curriculum as CC is taught and you score well on it.

Congrats! You have mastered to do the math in a ridiculous way.

The web is full of CC curriculum examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If I were older than 9 doing math this way, I might agree. But not for a 6/7 yr old. BTW, I am in IT, and when I try to explain to my ES kids what I do for a living, my explanation is long, much longer than how I would explain it to an adult. Why? Because young kids don't understand much about computers or business, just like they have limited exposure to number sense.

This is not how math works. Math is all about simplification. You're not teaching the right principles from the start.