"AAP is not a gifted program"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

You have much faith in a system that many here already believe broken. I've also yet to hear anyone speak to the actual nature of the gifted curriculum once all the misplaced Gen Ed kids are shown the door. I don't mean fuzzy words like more "rigor". The posts seem to contemplate a small group of superior IQ kids who are all equals in intellectual ability such that they can get out of the revised program what they don't at present. So how would it actually differ? Would they bother with things like SOLs or employ some other specialized curriculum? We hear much of their general unmet special needs but few specifics about how those needs would be met.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

You have much faith in a system that many here already believe broken. I've also yet to hear anyone speak to the actual nature of the gifted curriculum once all the misplaced Gen Ed kids are shown the door. I don't mean fuzzy words like more "rigor". The posts seem to contemplate a small group of superior IQ kids who are all equals in intellectual ability such that they can get out of the revised program what they don't at present. So how would it actually differ? Would they bother with things like SOLs or employ some other specialized curriculum? We hear much of their general unmet special needs but few specifics about how those needs would be met.

I'm curious how you envision math for them, then. Would a teacher teach 3rd and 4th grade math to those kids in 3rd grade and just third grade math to the other kids, almost like a class with two different grades combined (like a 3/4 combo class?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

You have much faith in a system that many here already believe broken. I've also yet to hear anyone speak to the actual nature of the gifted curriculum once all the misplaced Gen Ed kids are shown the door. I don't mean fuzzy words like more "rigor". The posts seem to contemplate a small group of superior IQ kids who are all equals in intellectual ability such that they can get out of the revised program what they don't at present. So how would it actually differ? Would they bother with things like SOLs or employ some other specialized curriculum? We hear much of their general unmet special needs but few specifics about how those needs would be met.

Not the person who wrote that, but I think the idea is reasonable. As for your opposition, how do 99.9% of all the other school districts -- including some very, very top tier ones -- manage integrating smart children into a regular school? Seems there are viable ways to do it, and someone doesn't have to point out all of the specifics for that to be obvious.

Or do you like that "AAP parent" designation so much that you're convinced your child actually needs a different school entirely?

[Anonymous]

Clearly a parent whose child meets the current standards but wouldn't if they were tightened.

Ja mein Freund. Some clearly do not belong among us. Gifted Über Alles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people who want the program paired down, want these current AAP kids to be in general ed and get the general ed curriculum or do they want the general ed curriculum to change. I've been following this board for years and don't think I've ever seen a thread that proposes actual in depth concrete changes to general ed. What is wrong with general ed these days? What needs to be changed? Separate threads for elementary and middle school would be helpful. Until general ed changes are established, I don't see a lot of people successfully advocating to reduce the AAP program. Those families with kids who are on the border will fight for a larger pool of children because they want their children exposed to a curriculum at the level of AAP.

I can't speak for anyone else's thoughts, but there's no reason the vast majority of the AAP kids can't be taught in the home schools, with adjustments to the Gen Ed curriculum. Supplement the kids who are bright in math and language arts, and even science or social studies. Think of it as an expansion and enhancement of the current in-school services.

You have much faith in a system that many here already believe broken. I've also yet to hear anyone speak to the actual nature of the gifted curriculum once all the misplaced Gen Ed kids are shown the door. I don't mean fuzzy words like more "rigor". The posts seem to contemplate a small group of superior IQ kids who are all equals in intellectual ability such that they can get out of the revised program what they don't at present. So how would it actually differ? Would they bother with things like SOLs or employ some other specialized curriculum? We hear much of their general unmet special needs but few specifics about how those needs would be met.

Not the person who wrote that, but I think the idea is reasonable. As for your opposition, how do 99.9% of all the other school districts -- including some very, very top tier ones -- manage integrating smart children into a regular school? Seems there are viable ways to do it, and someone doesn't have to point out all of the specifics for that to be obvious.

Or do you like that "AAP parent" designation so much that you're convinced your child actually needs a different school entirely?

The ones I know who differentiate well have very small classes. Most school systems though don't teach advanced math to as many children as FCPS does. My guess is smaller classes would cost more money than a larger AAP program especially if they have to screen all these kids anyway.

[Anonymous]

Other than Montgomery County which spends considerably more per child than FCPS and doesn't teach advanced math in general ed, what other school systems are teaching advanced instruction better than FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people sometimes get a little bogged down by the fact that the name of the program was changed from GT to AAP around 2008. The program itself didn't change.

It's like when we got a new principal at our high school, and he changed "lunch" to "nutrition break," and "library" to "Informations Materials Center."

You clearly didn't have a child in what was then GT, and haven't been following the steady expansion and decline of the program's quality.

Hey everybody, we have an insider! Surely PP will follow up with a detailed, year by year, county-wide analysis with examples.

Just a parent who had a child in GT and has another child in AAP. No comparison.

Excellent, just the experienced perspective we need. How did your lucky older child handle the transition from actual GT to high school when GT ended? Was it a shock? Though there clearly is "no comparison", even a duck can be compared to a horse by their differences. Please spare some effort to explaining differences you encountered between GT and AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:95th national percentile is not the same as 95th percentile in Fairfax County.

Take the top 2% in the county, put them in what had always been known as a gifted program, and move on. Set the bar high in General Ed with appropriate differentiation.

Problem is AAP has become so large that exclusion is considered a slight. Scale down the program, and the bulk of the parents will have nothing to complain about because their child didn't make such a stringent cut.

YES! Almost all of the issues stem from the fact parents can't stand for their child to be excluded from a program that in some schools includes a high percentage of a grade. Make AAP truly for the top 2% or 5% of our demographics. The parent of the kid in the top 6th percent won't be happy, but it's different being part of 94% rather than 70%.

And since so many above-average kids will remain in home schools, up the ante there!

Yes, because the primary goal of a great AAP design should be to offend the least number of parents! Forget the kids - let's protect parental egos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that AAP is becoming a modern day version of "separate but equal." Students from affluent families who are able to pay for test prep, private IQ tests, and tutoring have an edge on the families who do not/cannot. Children with parents who can't afford this, or who don't speak english well, or who just aren't able to be as invested in their child's homework are MUCH less likely to get in - and it has NOTHING to do with the intelligence or giftedness of the child.

The effects of prepping are overstated IMHO. White and Asian, higher SES students would/do test higher even without prep. For example on the SAT, which like NNAT/CogAT is a decent proxy for IQ, the average gain from prepping is about 30 points, while the gap between average white and average black scores is about 200 points. Prepping is responsible for some of that but not most. The situation with AAP entrance exams is more likely to resemble the SAT than not. Level the playing field, and the picture wouldn't change by more than about 15%. Restrict AAP even further as you and your companeros are proposing, you'd have an even smaller proportion of black, ESOL and FARMS kids qualifying.

Anonymous wrote:It isn't a gifted program. It is a more rigorous schedule, but it is really aimed at any student who might be "held down" by the increasingly lower base at your average FCPS. There are more and more ESL students every year, and with SOLs and budget problems the schools are finding it harder and harder to meet the needs of all students. So suddenly, students who would normally have been average students 20 years ago are "gifted" and moved to AAP.

First of all, citation needed on your last sentence. I want to see evidence that AAP has significantly lowered its criteria in the last twenty years.

Second of all, to be very blunt about the bolded part: So?

Anonymous wrote:That is my problem with it. I'd rather them find a way to bring the bottom up than split the top 1/4 away and focus on them.

Lol. Good luck with that. Demographics is destiny. Keep chasing that dragon's tail while my (prepped) kid is high and dry in "bloated" AAP.

[Anonymous]

And since so many above-average kids will remain in home schools, up the ante there!

Upping the ante in gen ed probably sounds like a good idea if you come from McLean etc. where the gen pop is legit able to handle it. It cannot work county-wide. Come down and visist some of the ES heavy FARMS, ESOL and military presence. It is not going to fly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to agree with this. I have one DC who is making high As while coasting in a competitive TJ feeder MS-- and doing very little homework or studying. He needs someone to push him harder, challenge him more. And have higher expectations. On the other hand, DC2 works hard in her ES center for good grades, and I think the level of challenge is about right. I would love DC 2 to keep her current program, while DC1 was was moved up to a higher level, like the LV some parents mention. It does DC1 no favor to be allowed to coast academically-- at some point: HS, college, grad school, smart will not be enough. He needs a situation where things stop coming so easily, and he has to learn to really work academically. He is just not learning those skills now.

What is he doing with the time he doesn't need for homework? Being able to coast in school gives a kid the opportunity to be more involved in an outside activity. I know some TJ kids that used that time to be deeply involved in sports, dance, music, theatre...something the child loved that was different from what he or she was doing in school all day. The ability to do so well in a challenging curriculum while spending many hours on a non-academic activity gives the child a chance to really to grow and develop many different aspects of his or her character: leadership, organizational skills, ability to work with others, communication skills and more of the areas that sometimes can be neglected when a child needs to spend all his time on academics. As long as he is having no trouble with the AAP curriculum, I would encourage him to use that extra time he has in a productive way to deeply explore an interest he has.

Best wishes to you- we had the same situation at our house and that is how we managed it. Kid went to TJ and is now at a top ten college and very happy there. Still spends a lot of time on that outside, non-academic activity.

DS is definitely doing extracurriculars-- a music ensemble that meets after school& performs on weekends/ etc. (along with private music lessons), an academic team that practices 15 hours a week and travels on weekends, a sport that he plays, but not at a highly competitive level (no athletic talent!), NJHS, peer tutoring, etc. He also spends a lot of free time reading and has to help pout around the house. But it worries me that, despite being in the AAP Center in a school that has a reputation of being the most challenging in FCPS, he doesn't have to push himself academically. I know he can't get through life this way, and it worries me that he is just not learning things like tenacity, grit, perseverance & hard work (like my DC2 does, in order to succeed in her AAP class). So yes, I wish AAP would revert back to highly selective-- and then teach at that level and raise expectations.

[Anonymous]

The effects of prepping are overstated IMHO. White and Asian, higher SES students would/do test higher even without prep. For example on the SAT, which like NNAT/CogAT is a decent proxy for IQ, the average gain from prepping is about 30 points, while the gap between average white and average black scores is about 200 points. Prepping is responsible for some of that but not most. The situation with AAP entrance exams is more likely to resemble the SAT than not. Level the playing field, and the picture wouldn't change by more than about 15%. Restrict AAP even further as you and your companeros are proposing, you'd have an even smaller proportion of black, ESOL and FARMS kids qualifying.

Wow. Just wow.

Do you tell black people that you believe they are an inherently less intelligent race of humans? No? Why not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

Do you tell black people that you believe they are an inherently less intelligent race of humans? No? Why not?

Because I don't believe the black/white testing gap is a matter of biology. I also don't pretend that it doesn't exist, that it isn't important, or that it would be easy to fix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to agree with this. I have one DC who is making high As while coasting in a competitive TJ feeder MS-- and doing very little homework or studying. He needs someone to push him harder, challenge him more. And have higher expectations. On the other hand, DC2 works hard in her ES center for good grades, and I think the level of challenge is about right. I would love DC 2 to keep her current program, while DC1 was was moved up to a higher level, like the LV some parents mention. It does DC1 no favor to be allowed to coast academically-- at some point: HS, college, grad school, smart will not be enough. He needs a situation where things stop coming so easily, and he has to learn to really work academically. He is just not learning those skills now.

What is he doing with the time he doesn't need for homework? Being able to coast in school gives a kid the opportunity to be more involved in an outside activity. I know some TJ kids that used that time to be deeply involved in sports, dance, music, theatre...something the child loved that was different from what he or she was doing in school all day. The ability to do so well in a challenging curriculum while spending many hours on a non-academic activity gives the child a chance to really to grow and develop many different aspects of his or her character: leadership, organizational skills, ability to work with others, communication skills and more of the areas that sometimes can be neglected when a child needs to spend all his time on academics. As long as he is having no trouble with the AAP curriculum, I would encourage him to use that extra time he has in a productive way to deeply explore an interest he has.

Best wishes to you- we had the same situation at our house and that is how we managed it. Kid went to TJ and is now at a top ten college and very happy there. Still spends a lot of time on that outside, non-academic activity.

DS is definitely doing extracurriculars-- a music ensemble that meets after school& performs on weekends/ etc. (along with private music lessons), an academic team that practices 15 hours a week and travels on weekends, a sport that he plays, but not at a highly competitive level (no athletic talent!), NJHS, peer tutoring, etc. He also spends a lot of free time reading and has to help pout around the house. But it worries me that, despite being in the AAP Center in a school that has a reputation of being the most challenging in FCPS, he doesn't have to push himself academically. I know he can't get through life this way, and it worries me that he is just not learning things like tenacity, grit, perseverance & hard work (like my DC2 does, in order to succeed in her AAP class). So yes, I wish AAP would revert back to highly selective-- and then teach at that level and raise expectations.

I really wouldn't worry about it at this point if he is only in eighth grade. He'll have the chance to take APs in high school and it will be even more important in high school to have the time available for outside, non-academic pursuits. It might be that he is smart enough that school work will be relatively easy for him until he gets to college, but he can benefit by all he can learn in different areas outside of school.

Maybe some outside activities are more difficult for him than school is? Maybe those are areas where he can learn about working hard at something that is not easy- you mention that he is not a natural athlete, but maybe spending more time on the sport would help him to see what it takes to do well when you are not naturally talented at a particular skill. Sports are an ideal activity for learning about tenacity, grit, perseverance, and hard work. Even more so when the skill does not come easily to the participant. He can learn about overcoming difficulties in any venue, it does not only have to be at school or in activities related to academics.

You never know where an outside interest will lead. Two young people in my neighborhood graduated from high school with AP diplomas and have since graduated from college but are now working in fields directly related to their outside of school activities. One, who was also a National Merit student, is a professional athlete. Yes, school should be challenging, but some kids are so smart that school is just not going to eat up all their time, so they can take advantage of the opportunity to get involved with worthwhile activities.