Why do so many affluent people insist they have "middle class" values?

[Anonymous]

Isn't it possible that they actually DO have middle class values.

Isn't it possible that they came from a family where neither parent went to college - they were the first person in their entire family to go to college. They paid their own way, worked jobs, took out loans, got grades, got a degree, got a good job, worked hard (because of their parent's example), played it smart, listened, learned and made smart decisions in both their career and with their finances.

Today they're reaping the benefits of their hard work. They realize that what they have is a direct result of their hard work and their commitment to doing things the right way.


Because the now make a lot of money, it is theirs to spend - they have walked the path and worked hard. Maybe they are spenders, maybe they are savers, but they are entitled to say that they have middle class values.

You can have a million dollar income and middle class values. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the upper middle class feel so strongly that the belong in the middle class because of two reasons:

1. They work very hard to get to where they are. They made sacrifices, took the extra effort, and battled there way into their current income situation. It's not easy. There might have been some element of luck, but mostly you get out of life what you put in. Working hard and earning a solid/comfortable living with what you earn is a main middle class value.

2. They see the full spectrum of how people live - they get a good view of the truly rich from friends, business acquaintances, social circles, and etc. They know how they live themselves, and they see how median Americans live. They realize that they are closer to how the median Americans live, than how the truly rich people live.

The median income people can imagine how glamorous a million dollar home, nanny, BMWs, 529, and retirement savings are. But the truth is that these are not all that glamorous. They are fairly mundane compared to what the truly rich indulge in.

I have nothing against the truly rich, I aspire to be one.

I'm with you until you try to sell me that a million dollar home, nanny, 529 and retirement savings are middle class. They may not be "glamorous" but the majority of people in the US do not have these things.

Lets not confuse "do not have these things" with "have similar but not as nice things". Primary home, child care, your daily driver, college savings, and retirement savings - these are all mundane things. The upper middle class have nicer versions of these things, but that's about it.

Actually I was t confusing anything. You think the majority of people have 529 plans and fully funded retirement? I don't.

But college and retirement savings are PRECISELY middle class values. Rich people have wealth and can just pay for college; they don't need to work now and save for the future. That's why all these people around here, where both people are working, consider themselves middle class and not rich. Middle class families are building assets, rich families have assets. Maybe folks will retire rich, but as long as they have to work and save, they don't feel wealthy.

[Anonymous]

We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

+1 - just because you are bad with money doesn't make you middle class either. There's no term for that other than "bad with money" and that can happen to anybody in any class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it possible that they actually DO have middle class values.

Isn't it possible that they came from a family where neither parent went to college - they were the first person in their entire family to go to college. They paid their own way, worked jobs, took out loans, got grades, got a degree, got a good job, worked hard (because of their parent's example), played it smart, listened, learned and made smart decisions in both their career and with their finances.

Today they're reaping the benefits of their hard work. They realize that what they have is a direct result of their hard work and their commitment to doing things the right way.


Because the now make a lot of money, it is theirs to spend - they have walked the path and worked hard. Maybe they are spenders, maybe they are savers, but they are entitled to say that they have middle class values.

You can have a million dollar income and middle class values. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yea, but your line of thinking is not conducive to class warfare. If you want a small segment of the population to bear the brunt of the tax burden, you must make them out to be "different", and vilify them in the eyes of the masses. There's no mention of hard work, but rather luck, privilege, inheritance, good old boys network - anything to dilute the success to the point where people feel that they've been victimized, and therefore these undeserving "rich people who make more than $250k" must be made to pay a little bit more to make it more "fair".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

+1 - just because you are bad with money doesn't make you middle class either. There's no term for that other than "bad with money" and that can happen to anybody in any class.

I don't see the PP as struggling. I see the PP has having good income but still dealing with the same concerns and living a similar lifestyle as other middle class people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

+1 - just because you are bad with money doesn't make you middle class either. There's no term for that other than "bad with money" and that can happen to anybody in any class.

I don't see the PP as struggling. I see the PP has having good income but still dealing with the same concerns and living a similar lifestyle as other middle class people.

I disagree. If PP is really in a situation where one job loss would cost her their home then something isn't right. They are overextended somewhere (likely too much house) or maybe are diverting too much income into paying off student loans (not necessarily a bad thing, but a gamble if an emergency fund isn't in place). I don't know too many people with a 250k+ HHI that can't afford to fix the AC in their car. There's more going on here than what was posted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

+1 - just because you are bad with money doesn't make you middle class either. There's no term for that other than "bad with money" and that can happen to anybody in any class.

I don't see the PP as struggling. I see the PP has having good income but still dealing with the same concerns and living a similar lifestyle as other middle class people.

I disagree. If PP is really in a situation where one job loss would cost her their home then something isn't right. They are overextended somewhere (likely too much house) or maybe are diverting too much income into paying off student loans (not necessarily a bad thing, but a gamble if an emergency fund isn't in place). I don't know too many people with a 250k+ HHI that can't afford to fix the AC in their car. There's more going on here than what was posted.

I absolutely agree. We have a HHI of 90k and would still have enough savings to fix the AC if it broke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the upper middle class feel so strongly that the belong in the middle class because of two reasons:

1. They work very hard to get to where they are. They made sacrifices, took the extra effort, and battled there way into their current income situation. It's not easy. There might have been some element of luck, but mostly you get out of life what you put in. Working hard and earning a solid/comfortable living with what you earn is a main middle class value.

2. They see the full spectrum of how people live - they get a good view of the truly rich from friends, business acquaintances, social circles, and etc. They know how they live themselves, and they see how median Americans live. They realize that they are closer to how the median Americans live, than how the truly rich people live.

The median income people can imagine how glamorous a million dollar home, nanny, BMWs, 529, and retirement savings are. But the truth is that these are not all that glamorous. They are fairly mundane compared to what the truly rich indulge in.

I have nothing against the truly rich, I aspire to be one.

I'm with you until you try to sell me that a million dollar home, nanny, 529 and retirement savings are middle class. They may not be "glamorous" but the majority of people in the US do not have these things.

Lets not confuse "do not have these things" with "have similar but not as nice things". Primary home, child care, your daily driver, college savings, and retirement savings - these are all mundane things. The upper middle class have nicer versions of these things, but that's about it.

Daily driver? Are you talking about the metro conductor? Can I refer to myself as a daily driver when I drive myself in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We earn combined (2 working spouses), 270K. Earlier this year, our combined salaries equaled less than 200K, so we just got a big jump. To earn that 270K, we both had to take out significant student loans, even though both us attended public schools. If I quit working tomorrow, we would be forced to sell our house (because we couldn't afford the mortgage) within 6 months at the absolute longest. We have no job security, and can be fired at will. Prior to graduate school, I earned 30K a year.

When you take out loans and mortgage, plus the cost of child care for young children, there is simply not all that much left. We do not have household help or a yard guy, we cannot afford to take a family trip by plane etc. I am not bemoaning our fate. I'm happy with our income. If we can hold on to this income level (far from guarunteed) and our kids get scholarships to college, I hope we will someday be wealthy, or at least be able to retire by the time we are in our 70s.
But pretty sure if I started telling people who know us that we are rich right now, they would laugh. Growing up, people we knew who we thought of as rich, did not have to work, and owned significant assets outright (land, a business, etc.). They could afford to join a country club. Some of them may have had extremely low incomes, because they had some sort of hobby job, but they didn't need an income, so who cares. I used to work with mostly very low income people. They viewed rich as able to afford a nice new car (not us, we only had the money to buy used with a car loan), designer clothes (not us, we shop consignment out of necessity), mansion (not us), can afford jewelry (again, not us). I just don't get the obsession with HHI as the only determinant of wealth. If you've earned 80K a year for 25 years, invested prudently, and had a SAH parent, you might have a net worth in the millions in your forties. Or a fed worker with an old style pension may have a much lower income, but effectively end up with a lot more cash. But if you've earned 200K as a couple for a 3 years, are paying off the 180K in student loans it took to get that income, and have a child, you may have a negative net worth. But to people on this board, the person with 200K HHI is automatically rich, while the person with the HHI of 80K is automatically middle class, regardless of how much money they actually have. That just does not make any sense to me.
Honestly, I don't really care if people want to label us rich because of some definition they made up based on HHI only. But saying that we don't have middle class values? Umm we are not buying consignment, not fixing the AC on our car, setting our thermostat for 78, not vacationing, and working 80 hours a week because we want to, its because we have to to pay for a roof over our head, students loans, and legal licensed childcare. I guess people with "middle class values" don't own a home (or pay rent, as our mortgage is less than rent on a 3 bedroom would cost), default on their student loans, and either have to cadge free childcare, receive subsidies (which I thought were reserved for the poor) or go somewhere super-cheap that pays less than minimum wage and isn't licensed. So ok - that doesn't sound "middle class" to me, but I guess I've been wrong all my life, as has pretty much everyone I've ever known.

You really need someone to manage your finances if you're struggling to get by on $270,000 a year.

+1 - just because you are bad with money doesn't make you middle class either. There's no term for that other than "bad with money" and that can happen to anybody in any class.

I don't see the PP as struggling. I see the PP has having good income but still dealing with the same concerns and living a similar lifestyle as other middle class people.

I disagree. If PP is really in a situation where one job loss would cost her their home then something isn't right. They are overextended somewhere (likely too much house) or maybe are diverting too much income into paying off student loans (not necessarily a bad thing, but a gamble if an emergency fund isn't in place). I don't know too many people with a 250k+ HHI that can't afford to fix the AC in their car. There's more going on here than what was posted.

I absolutely agree. We have a HHI of 90k and would still have enough savings to fix the AC if it broke.

The note is full of exaggeration, very few people who claim to work 80 hour weeks routinely do.

That said, I hear her frustration but money-management help sounds like a good idea.

[Anonymous]

I'll be honest. My family has about a $350k HHI and I don't have middle class values. I like outsourcing and having the freedom to travel internationally. I send my kids to private schools.

Honestly, I think the people in my tax bracket who claim "middle class values" are mostly lying to themselves. I have colleagues with 1/3 my HHI (which is actually middle class-like) and I know they live very differently than us.

Whenever you see there is someone richer than you you can always imagine you are middle class. It's silly. Give it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest. My family has about a $350k HHI and I don't have middle class values. I like outsourcing and having the freedom to travel internationally. I send my kids to private schools.

Honestly, I think the people in my tax bracket who claim "middle class values" are mostly lying to themselves. I have colleagues with 1/3 my HHI (which is actually middle class-like) and I know they live very differently than us.

Whenever you see there is someone richer than you you can always imagine you are middle class. It's silly. Give it up.

I have a higher HHI than you do, and I have middle class values with an upper middle class lifestyle. We outsource, but we don't travel internationally and our kids go to public school. We have a paid off house worth less than 1 million dollars and drive 5 year old Japanese cars.
I'm curious how many millions in net worth you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the upper middle class feel so strongly that the belong in the middle class because of two reasons:

1. They work very hard to get to where they are. They made sacrifices, took the extra effort, and battled there way into their current income situation. It's not easy. There might have been some element of luck, but mostly you get out of life what you put in. Working hard and earning a solid/comfortable living with what you earn is a main middle class value.

2. They see the full spectrum of how people live - they get a good view of the truly rich from friends, business acquaintances, social circles, and etc. They know how they live themselves, and they see how median Americans live. They realize that they are closer to how the median Americans live, than how the truly rich people live.

The median income people can imagine how glamorous a million dollar home, nanny, BMWs, 529, and retirement savings are. But the truth is that these are not all that glamorous. They are fairly mundane compared to what the truly rich indulge in.

I have nothing against the truly rich, I aspire to be one.

I'm with you until you try to sell me that a million dollar home, nanny, 529 and retirement savings are middle class. They may not be "glamorous" but the majority of people in the US do not have these things.

Lets not confuse "do not have these things" with "have similar but not as nice things". Primary home, child care, your daily driver, college savings, and retirement savings - these are all mundane things. The upper middle class have nicer versions of these things, but that's about it.

Daily driver? Are you talking about the metro conductor? Can I refer to myself as a daily driver when I drive myself in?

"Daily driver" is a commonly used term to describe the car that you drive on a daily basis as it is primarily a transportation tool for you. This is as opposed to for example a Ferrari behind the 5th garage door that gets driven only on sunny non-raining summer weekends. The point here is that an upper middle class person may drive a BMW, vs a Honda Accord, but the BMW is just a nice daily driver. It is about as exclusive as Whole Foods organic chicken breast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest. My family has about a $350k HHI and I don't have middle class values. I like outsourcing and having the freedom to travel internationally. I send my kids to private schools.

Honestly, I think the people in my tax bracket who claim "middle class values" are mostly lying to themselves. I have colleagues with 1/3 my HHI (which is actually middle class-like) and I know they live very differently than us.

Whenever you see there is someone richer than you you can always imagine you are middle class. It's silly. Give it up.

Most people with a $350k HHI doesn't live like you. We didn't start getting maid service until our income went above $500k. Up until last year I mowed my own lawn. The extent of our international travel is a 5-day Alaska trip in the last 4 years that also happened to pass through Canada. We shop at outlet malls, not Tysons. Our kids go to public school - but we did buy into the nice neighborhood that feeds the desirable school district.

I'll put it this way. Every single day, whenever there are people around me, I look up and see that these are other middle class people. They are not giving me a second look because I am doing the same thing they are doing.