Unemployed Baltimore law grad with 120k in debt - options?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:a federal attorney job is an unrealistic pipe dream for someone with OP's stats. sucks, but it's the truth.

one exception is attorney adviser for the SSA. this is a horrible, crappy, mindless job involving cutting and pasting shit into ALJ "decisions." but it's a federal gig. i was offered this job a few years ago, and i think they are available with some regularity. i passed on the job to take a position with a sole practitioner. people told me i was nuts at the time, but it was the best decision i ever made.

Ssa upped their game years ago. It would be a long shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps look into government financial industry regularoty agency? I'm thinking Securities Exchange Commission, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, etc.

Another direction to explore might be international development work through places like World Bank and IFC which often list prior financial sector background and law degree as a requirement for some of the technical positions.

Idk about fdic but you can't realistically get in these other places even with honors from Baltimore grad. They turn away T14 or ivy law grads, former biglaw associates all the time. Of course even those with years of experience and one who has all of that. Even staff attorney positions are hard to come by. Baltimore law grad could get hired maybe in the boom times of yesteryears. I know of one that successfully did who now would be able to at his firm.

I meant the being able to get hired as a staff attorney during boom times and that the Baltimore grad I know would not be able to get his staff atty position in 2014 had he not joined in 2006-7.

OP, this is not true. I went to a second tier school, as did my boss and just about everyone in my office. We are not impressed by law schools, becuase we know that even non-ivy grads can do good work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a federal attorney job is an unrealistic pipe dream for someone with OP's stats. sucks, but it's the truth.

one exception is attorney adviser for the SSA. this is a horrible, crappy, mindless job involving cutting and pasting shit into ALJ "decisions." but it's a federal gig. i was offered this job a few years ago, and i think they are available with some regularity. i passed on the job to take a position with a sole practitioner. people told me i was nuts at the time, but it was the best decision i ever made.

Ssa upped their game years ago. It would be a long shot.

PP here. Getting a job with the SSA's OGC or a similar job is just as impossible as anywhere else. There is a job known as "attorney adviser" with the ALJ's office in NOVA (they have offices nationwide), and that job is garbage work. It's basically secretarial work, but for some reason they have labeled it at attorney job. They are temporary 2-year appointments (though I understand they are so overwhelmed that if you aren't illiterate and show up, they will indefinitely re-up your appointment). I believe they start at a GS-11 and top out at GS-12, and no more career advancement.

This is the job I was talking about, and I think they are just as easy to get as they were before. If there is an opening, I think any law grad has a shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps look into government financial industry regularoty agency? I'm thinking Securities Exchange Commission, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, etc.

Another direction to explore might be international development work through places like World Bank and IFC which often list prior financial sector background and law degree as a requirement for some of the technical positions.

Idk about fdic but you can't realistically get in these other places even with honors from Baltimore grad. They turn away T14 or ivy law grads, former biglaw associates all the time. Of course even those with years of experience and one who has all of that. Even staff attorney positions are hard to come by. Baltimore law grad could get hired maybe in the boom times of yesteryears. I know of one that successfully did who now would be able to at his firm.

I meant the being able to get hired as a staff attorney during boom times and that the Baltimore grad I know would not be able to get his staff atty position in 2014 had he not joined in 2006-7.

OP, this is not true. I went to a second tier school, as did my boss and just about everyone in my office. We are not impressed by law schools, becuase we know that even non-ivy grads can do good work.

When was this? Because now, every federal atty opening gets hundreds, if not thousands, of applications. Including from people seeking to flee biglaw, who have solid credentials and relevant experience. A recent grad from a low-ranked school has absolutely no shot. I say this not to be mean, but this is just reality. Please don't get OP's hopes up. S/he should be focusing efforts elsewhere, not on getting a job at a federal agency.

[Anonymous]

Because now, every federal atty opening gets hundreds, if not thousands, of applications. Including from people seeking to flee biglaw, who have solid credentials and relevant experience. A recent grad from a low-ranked school has absolutely no shot. I say this not to be mean, but this is just reality. Please don't get OP's hopes up. S/he should be focusing efforts elsewhere, not on getting a job at a federal agency.

This is complete nonsense. If fact, federal agencies are probably more likely to hire a recent grad with no experience than anyone else. People with "solid credentials and relevant experience" are often terribly threatening to others in the bureaucracy. They'll hire the weeker candidate in consequence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Because now, every federal atty opening gets hundreds, if not thousands, of applications. Including from people seeking to flee biglaw, who have solid credentials and relevant experience. A recent grad from a low-ranked school has absolutely no shot. I say this not to be mean, but this is just reality. Please don't get OP's hopes up. S/he should be focusing efforts elsewhere, not on getting a job at a federal agency.

This is complete nonsense. If fact, federal agencies are probably more likely to hire a recent grad with no experience than anyone else. People with "solid credentials and relevant experience" are often terribly threatening to others in the bureaucracy. They'll hire the weeker candidate in consequence.

I think there are thousands of recent grads who would beg to differ.

[Anonymous]

There are not thousands of vacant federal attorney jobs for them. Doesn't mean they can't get the ones that are available.

[Anonymous]

No kidding there aren't thousands of jobs available. But there are thousands of unemployed grads. No, they don't get fed jobs. Where are you hearing this nonsense?

[Anonymous]

Look at Federal. I know a Baltimore Law grad who was an attorney at GSA. Maybe they have an opening. I KNOW that they love this guy and won't look down on the school. They also have lots of UVA grads, GW grads etc so for those of you about to make snarky remarks, back off.

In general, cast a wide net and do not be choosy. Small firms and big firms. In house or government. Keep your salary expectations low too. Having a job will make life easier for getting another job. Contract work is fine. Document review is fine. Lawyers know how tough it has become (I am one) and won't look down on your work. And if you have to wait tables or do something "lesser" in the meantime, do it. Don't appear to be too big for your britches and go into an interview and say "I don't have a job, I devote all my time to job hunting." Anyone who has had a job, decided to move on, applied and moved on knows that is possible and normal to have a job while looking for a job. If you are working (document review as a temp or part-time or retail/food) you look like someone who knows working is part of being an adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look at Federal. I know a Baltimore Law grad who was an attorney at GSA. Maybe they have an opening. I KNOW that they love this guy and won't look down on the school. They also have lots of UVA grads, GW grads etc so for those of you about to make snarky remarks, back off.

In general, cast a wide net and do not be choosy. Small firms and big firms. In house or government. Keep your salary expectations low too. Having a job will make life easier for getting another job. Contract work is fine. Document review is fine. Lawyers know how tough it has become (I am one) and won't look down on your work. And if you have to wait tables or do something "lesser" in the meantime, do it. Don't appear to be too big for your britches and go into an interview and say "I don't have a job, I devote all my time to job hunting." Anyone who has had a job, decided to move on, applied and moved on knows that is possible and normal to have a job while looking for a job. If you are working (document review as a temp or part-time or retail/food) you look like someone who knows working is part of being an adult.

This is great advice. I'm the PP with the DH who went to a crappy law school (not a million years ago, graduated about 5 years ago) and now has a great job in-house. He bounced around a bit, but he was always willing to work for a low salary, do whatever needed to be done, etc. He's also a good guy that people like being around. I can't tell you how many lawyers I know from better schools academically that think they're too good for certain jobs, are arrogant and awful, etc. Being humble and a decent person goes a LONG way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Because now, every federal atty opening gets hundreds, if not thousands, of applications. Including from people seeking to flee biglaw, who have solid credentials and relevant experience. A recent grad from a low-ranked school has absolutely no shot. I say this not to be mean, but this is just reality. Please don't get OP's hopes up. S/he should be focusing efforts elsewhere, not on getting a job at a federal agency.

This is complete nonsense. If fact, federal agencies are probably more likely to hire a recent grad with no experience than anyone else. People with "solid credentials and relevant experience" are often terribly threatening to others in the bureaucracy. They'll hire the weeker candidate in consequence.

this is hilarious nonsense. someone from a TTT with no experience relevant to an agency's mission will not even have his resume read by the hiring official. guaranteed. unless we are talking about a minority/veteran (or, better yet, a minority veteran).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a federal attorney job is an unrealistic pipe dream for someone with OP's stats. sucks, but it's the truth.

one exception is attorney adviser for the SSA. this is a horrible, crappy, mindless job involving cutting and pasting shit into ALJ "decisions." but it's a federal gig. i was offered this job a few years ago, and i think they are available with some regularity. i passed on the job to take a position with a sole practitioner. people told me i was nuts at the time, but it was the best decision i ever made.

Ssa upped their game years ago. It would be a long shot.

PP here. Getting a job with the SSA's OGC or a similar job is just as impossible as anywhere else. There is a job known as "attorney adviser" with the ALJ's office in NOVA (they have offices nationwide), and that job is garbage work. It's basically secretarial work, but for some reason they have labeled it at attorney job. They are temporary 2-year appointments (though I understand they are so overwhelmed that if you aren't illiterate and show up, they will indefinitely re-up your appointment). I believe they start at a GS-11 and top out at GS-12, and no more career advancement.

This is the job I was talking about, and I think they are just as easy to get as they were before. If there is an opening, I think any law grad has a shot.

Agree with the job kinda sucking, but it actually isn't super easy to get hired anymore. The postings close within a matter of hours because so many people apply. The legal market still hasn't really recovered.

Also, you can become a GS-13 Senior Attorney Advisor, GS-14 Appeals Officer, or GS-15 Appeals Judge over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps look into government financial industry regularoty agency? I'm thinking Securities Exchange Commission, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, etc.

Another direction to explore might be international development work through places like World Bank and IFC which often list prior financial sector background and law degree as a requirement for some of the technical positions.

Idk about fdic but you can't realistically get in these other places even with honors from Baltimore grad. They turn away T14 or ivy law grads, former biglaw associates all the time. Of course even those with years of experience and one who has all of that. Even staff attorney positions are hard to come by. Baltimore law grad could get hired maybe in the boom times of yesteryears. I know of one that successfully did who now would be able to at his firm.

I meant the being able to get hired as a staff attorney during boom times and that the Baltimore grad I know would not be able to get his staff atty position in 2014 had he not joined in 2006-7.

OP, this is not true. I went to a second tier school, as did my boss and just about everyone in my office. We are not impressed by law schools, becuase we know that even non-ivy grads can do good work.

I'd add on to this that many in law firms and corporate positions know NOT to hire ivy-league lawyers (Harvard, especially at my company!). Some of these people too often have no common sense. That lack of common sense (an under appreciated legal skill) combined with a certain arrogance of "I went to Harvard" is a killer. The CEO at the large publicly traded company I work for has told our legal department to not hire any Harvard law grads for this reason. Too often, we've hired these folks only to have them come in with a sense of entitlement and fail to realize their work has real-world practical implications (b/c it is a company).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perhaps look into government financial industry regularoty agency? I'm thinking Securities Exchange Commission, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, etc.

Another direction to explore might be international development work through places like World Bank and IFC which often list prior financial sector background and law degree as a requirement for some of the technical positions.

Idk about fdic but you can't realistically get in these other places even with honors from Baltimore grad. They turn away T14 or ivy law grads, former biglaw associates all the time. Of course even those with years of experience and one who has all of that. Even staff attorney positions are hard to come by. Baltimore law grad could get hired maybe in the boom times of yesteryears. I know of one that successfully did who now would be able to at his firm.

I meant the being able to get hired as a staff attorney during boom times and that the Baltimore grad I know would not be able to get his staff atty position in 2014 had he not joined in 2006-7.

OP, this is not true. I went to a second tier school, as did my boss and just about everyone in my office. We are not impressed by law schools, becuase we know that even non-ivy grads can do good work.

I'd add on to this that many in law firms and corporate positions know NOT to hire ivy-league lawyers (Harvard, especially at my company!). Some of these people too often have no common sense. That lack of common sense (an under appreciated legal skill) combined with a certain arrogance of "I went to Harvard" is a killer. The CEO at the large publicly traded company I work for has told our legal department to not hire any Harvard law grads for this reason. Too often, we've hired these folks only to have them come in with a sense of entitlement and fail to realize their work has real-world practical implications (b/c it is a company).

The background of almost every in-house counsel that I have worked with has been T-14 law school and several years at a top law firm (Skadden, Cravath, etc.). That's not to say this is true at every company (particularly smaller companie) but top law school grads are definitely well represented in in-house positions. I do agree that a lot of Harvard grads can be annoying dbags though.

[Anonymous]

HYS turn out plenty of aspie spacecases who can't tie their shoes (but can give full case cites from memory), but i have a hard time believing that grads from those schools are blacklisted anywhere. this is a common myth. just not true.

agencies have a good mix of TTT grads and elite grads, but IME the toileteers landed their gigs years ago. it isn't like that anymore, because each opening gets so many applications. i really do not buy that the hiring attorney at an agency is going to compare the resumes of a T14 grad with a clerkship and biglaw and a recent graduate from a TTT fresh out of school and decide to hire the toilet grad.