Who won the war? Where do they go from here?

[Anonymous]

So many horrifying stories. This refugee lost her home, her country in 1948, and then was killed 66 years later unable to escape the shelling http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/gaza/11011898/Gaza-grandmother-found-dead-in-bombarded-farming-town.html:

Incapacitated by a stroke, Mrs Qodaih - who had trekked all the way by donkey as a refugee from her home town of Jaffa to Gaza in the 1948 war that established Israel's existence - was incapable of feeing.
Instead, her family arranged with the Red Cross and Red Crescent to have her collected in an ambulance while 20 relatives escaped on foot, seeking refuge in UN schools, hospitals and friends' houses. Mrs Qodaih encouraged the family to leave while she waited for an ambulance, a relative said.

It never arrived. Three times an ambulance tried to reach the family home in Radwan Street only to be force to retreat under a hail of fire - the last time from just outside the front door, according to Tariq Ahmad Qodaih, Mrs Qodeih's grandson.

When the family finally returned on Sunday after the Israeli army's withdrawal, they found the old woman dead - lying on the bed on the ground floor where they had left her.

And then this from Human Rights Watch:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians

(Gaza) – Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.

...

Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.

On the morning of July 23, Israeli forces ordered a group of about 100 Palestinians in Khuza’a to leave a home in which they had gathered to take shelter, family members said. The first member to leave the house, Shahid al-Najjar, had his hands up but an Israeli soldier shot him in the jaw, seriously injuring him.

Israeli soldiers detained the men and boys over age 15 in an area close to the Gaza perimeter fence. Based on statements from witnesses and news reports, some were taken to Israel for questioning. Israeli forces released others that day, in small separate groups. As one group walked unarmed to Khan Younis, Israeli soldiers fired on them, killing one and wounding two others.

It sounds like something out of a horrible movie. But it doesn't stop there http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-israel-psychologist-trauma.html
:

An Israeli airstrike demolished Dr. Zeyada’s family home on July 20, killing six close relatives, including his mother and three of his brothers.

“You try to help the people with their suffering,” the doctor said recently in his Gaza City living room, lined with psychology textbooks. “It’s totally different when you have the same experience. You lose six from your family — three brothers, your mom, one of your nephews, your sister-in-law. It’s really” — he paused, red-eyed — “unexpected."

...

Dr. Zeyada is not the only Palestinian caregiver to become a trauma victim. In the three weeks of attacks that Israel has said are meant to root out militant rocket fire and destroy clandestine tunnels into Israel, one of Dr. Zeyada’s colleagues at the program lost a brother, and their boss, Dr. Yasser Abu Jamei, lost 26 members of his extended family, including 19 children, in a single bombing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But shooting rockets and missiles at civilians is not seeking peace. Neither is maintaining a charter (and yes I know you've said they dont mean it anymore) that pledges for the killing of Jews and the destruction of Israel. How can Israel ever hope to negotiate with them? What else CAN possibly come of the rockets except counterfire?

So Hamas has a charter seeking the destruction of Israel, while Israel has actually destroyed Palestine. One of these is worse than the other (as bad as Hamas is), FYI.

if you want peace, you have to overlook the charter. Obviously the destruction of Israel is unrealistic and will not happen. Destruction of Gaza and the West Bank are also unrealistic. Israel will never be a land where only jews only live.

Israel has no choice but to negotiate with them. South Africa negotiated with ANC before they up the armed struggle.
The rockets were fired during a time of war. Useless, but a form of self defence.

[Anonymous]

To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

Are you an engineer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

I read a military analyst (sorry, I don't have the link) say that the latest war will have little effect on reducing the rocket attacks into Israel. Hamas keeps a large reserve of rockets deep in Gaza which Israel can't destroy without inflicting much larger a number of casualties on both sides. Hamas will be back to the same level of ability to launch rockets within a year.

However, the current war did set the tunnel building back many years, and give Israel important information on how to detect the tunnels in the future. In that sense Israel achieved its military objective of keeping its border secure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

It couldn't have taken them all that long. Israel was last in Gaza November 2012.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

It couldn't have taken them all that long. Israel was last in Gaza November 2012.

There are reasonably fast ways to build tunnels: Tunnel boring machines, drill and blast, etc....but Israel would be able to detect the activity. And I would be shocked if a TBM is allowed in Gaza. If they are building by hand, using manual labor, it is a slow process. probably on the order of a few meters per day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

It couldn't have taken them all that long. Israel was last in Gaza November 2012.

There are reasonably fast ways to build tunnels: Tunnel boring machines, drill and blast, etc....but Israel would be able to detect the activity. And I would be shocked if a TBM is allowed in Gaza. If they are building by hand, using manual labor, it is a slow process. probably on the order of a few meters per day.

Then what, the Israelis missed them all last time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought this was a great article. Where Hamas goes from here remains to be seen. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-might-have-won-hamas-certainly-lost/#ixzz39cKqTFl8

Here are my thoughts

I also think most Gazans are angry with Hamas for leading them into a war they knew they couldnt win and hiding out in Qatar (and in the bunkers) while the civilians suffered. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

I also think peace with Hamas is unachievable and Fatah should take over.

I also think a Palestinian state with Gaza and the west Bank is not possible as it is not contiguous and protecting Israel's safety while allowing passage between the two is incredibly difficult. I think Gazans who are willing to move should be offered space in the West Bank and the 2- state solution should proceed without consideration of Gaza. Those who are left there will have to govern themselves. I know it sounds horrible for me to suggest uprooting all of Gaza, but its the only realistic and viable option. The ones that choose Fatah are choosing to recognize Israel and move towards peace. The ones who want to stay with Hamas are choosing terrorism.

What war? I didn't see a war. I saw a well-armed military obliterate an occupied territory and kill hundreds of civilians. Hamas was there before; Hamas is there now.

A two-state solution is not feasible given all the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

It couldn't have taken them all that long. Israel was last in Gaza November 2012.

There are reasonably fast ways to build tunnels: Tunnel boring machines, drill and blast, etc....but Israel would be able to detect the activity. And I would be shocked if a TBM is allowed in Gaza. If they are building by hand, using manual labor, it is a slow process. probably on the order of a few meters per day.

Then what, the Israelis missed them all last time?

Part that is missing is hand building is hard to detect....need to have a sensor within a few hundred meters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this was a great article. Where Hamas goes from here remains to be seen. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-might-have-won-hamas-certainly-lost/#ixzz39cKqTFl8

Here are my thoughts

I also think most Gazans are angry with Hamas for leading them into a war they knew they couldnt win and hiding out in Qatar (and in the bunkers) while the civilians suffered. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

I also think peace with Hamas is unachievable and Fatah should take over.

I also think a Palestinian state with Gaza and the west Bank is not possible as it is not contiguous and protecting Israel's safety while allowing passage between the two is incredibly difficult. I think Gazans who are willing to move should be offered space in the West Bank and the 2- state solution should proceed without consideration of Gaza. Those who are left there will have to govern themselves. I know it sounds horrible for me to suggest uprooting all of Gaza, but its the only realistic and viable option. The ones that choose Fatah are choosing to recognize Israel and move towards peace. The ones who want to stay with Hamas are choosing terrorism.

What war? I didn't see a war. I saw a well-armed military obliterate an occupied territory and kill hundreds of civilians. Hamas was there before; Hamas is there now.

A two-state solution is not feasible given all the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

And I saw a well armed military fighting against rocket and tunnel attacks where the enemy was wearing civilian clothes making the terrorists, and launching the attacks from peoples homes.

Terror vs well armed army.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

It couldn't have taken them all that long. Israel was last in Gaza November 2012.

There are reasonably fast ways to build tunnels: Tunnel boring machines, drill and blast, etc....but Israel would be able to detect the activity. And I would be shocked if a TBM is allowed in Gaza. If they are building by hand, using manual labor, it is a slow process. probably on the order of a few meters per day.

Then what, the Israelis missed them all last time?

Part that is missing is hand building is hard to detect....need to have a sensor within a few hundred meters.

The entire length of Gaza is only 25 miles, which they heavily patrol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this was a great article. Where Hamas goes from here remains to be seen. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-might-have-won-hamas-certainly-lost/#ixzz39cKqTFl8

Here are my thoughts

I also think most Gazans are angry with Hamas for leading them into a war they knew they couldnt win and hiding out in Qatar (and in the bunkers) while the civilians suffered. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

I also think peace with Hamas is unachievable and Fatah should take over.

I also think a Palestinian state with Gaza and the west Bank is not possible as it is not contiguous and protecting Israel's safety while allowing passage between the two is incredibly difficult. I think Gazans who are willing to move should be offered space in the West Bank and the 2- state solution should proceed without consideration of Gaza. Those who are left there will have to govern themselves. I know it sounds horrible for me to suggest uprooting all of Gaza, but its the only realistic and viable option. The ones that choose Fatah are choosing to recognize Israel and move towards peace. The ones who want to stay with Hamas are choosing terrorism.

What war? I didn't see a war. I saw a well-armed military obliterate an occupied territory and kill hundreds of civilians. Hamas was there before; Hamas is there now.

A two-state solution is not feasible given all the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

And I saw a well armed military fighting against rocket and tunnel attacks where the enemy was wearing civilian clothes making the terrorists, and launching the attacks from peoples homes.

Terror vs well armed army.

I suppose you would rather they had "precision" rockets so that they would no longer be terrorists?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To answer the original question, from the standpoint of destroying tunnels that it took Hamas years to build, Israel achieved one of it's military objectives in short order. On the other hand, Israel looks pretty stupid for having underestimated the extent of the tunnels.

I read a military analyst (sorry, I don't have the link) say that the latest war will have little effect on reducing the rocket attacks into Israel. Hamas keeps a large reserve of rockets deep in Gaza which Israel can't destroy without inflicting much larger a number of casualties on both sides. Hamas will be back to the same level of ability to launch rockets within a year.

However, the current war did set the tunnel building back many years, and give Israel important information on how to detect the tunnels in the future. In that sense Israel achieved its military objective of keeping its border secure.

That is correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought this was a great article. Where Hamas goes from here remains to be seen. http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-might-have-won-hamas-certainly-lost/#ixzz39cKqTFl8

Here are my thoughts

I also think most Gazans are angry with Hamas for leading them into a war they knew they couldnt win and hiding out in Qatar (and in the bunkers) while the civilians suffered. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555631,00.html

I also think peace with Hamas is unachievable and Fatah should take over.

I also think a Palestinian state with Gaza and the west Bank is not possible as it is not contiguous and protecting Israel's safety while allowing passage between the two is incredibly difficult. I think Gazans who are willing to move should be offered space in the West Bank and the 2- state solution should proceed without consideration of Gaza. Those who are left there will have to govern themselves. I know it sounds horrible for me to suggest uprooting all of Gaza, but its the only realistic and viable option. The ones that choose Fatah are choosing to recognize Israel and move towards peace. The ones who want to stay with Hamas are choosing terrorism.

What war? I didn't see a war. I saw a well-armed military obliterate an occupied territory and kill hundreds of civilians. Hamas was there before; Hamas is there now.

A two-state solution is not feasible given all the Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

And I saw a well armed military fighting against rocket and tunnel attacks where the enemy was wearing civilian clothes making the terrorists, and launching the attacks from peoples homes.

Terror vs well armed army.

I suppose you would rather they had "precision" rockets so that they would no longer be terrorists?

I would rather they wore uniforms so the combatants could be easily identified.