Israel's Bombing of Schools

[jsteele]

jsteele wrote:So, pro-Israel apologists, let's see if I have the clear:

1) None of you are sorry that 7 schools have been bombed killing tens of children;
2) It was actually Hamas that did it -- at least according to one Italian journalist whose story contradicts that of multiple other journalists and also doesn't account for the other six;
3) The IDF did it, but it was Hamas' fault for storing weapons in schools (note, there is no evidence weapons were stored in these schools);
4) The UN -- which has discovered and removed weapons from at least three schools -- can't be trusted to discover and remove weapons from schools.

So, this is is your story -- contradictory as it is -- and you are sticking to it, right?

If you cannot bring yourself to express sorrow over dead children, you really pretty despicable.

So, I need to add another item to the pro-Israel apologists list:

5) Muslims do bad things, Hamas is Muslim, ergo Hamas is responsible for all the bad things done by other Muslims (however, if you consider Israel and Jews to be equivalent, you are anti-Semitic).

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:So, pro-Israel apologists, let's see if I have the clear:

1) None of you are sorry that 7 schools have been bombed killing tens of children;
2) It was actually Hamas that did it -- at least according to one Italian journalist whose story contradicts that of multiple other journalists and also doesn't account for the other six;
3) The IDF did it, but it was Hamas' fault for storing weapons in schools (note, there is no evidence weapons were stored in these schools);
4) The UN -- which has discovered and removed weapons from at least three schools -- can't be trusted to discover and remove weapons from schools.

So, this is is your story -- contradictory as it is -- and you are sticking to it, right?

If you cannot bring yourself to express sorrow over dead children, you really pretty despicable.

I have just started posting about this relatively recently and I am not an expert by far, but my point is that the Palestinians are responsible for that -- they are hiding weapons around children and innocents. I heard a Hamas guy being interviewed state that they were asking Palestinians to stay in their homes after Israel had asked them to leave because they were planning on bombing them. He was advising his own people to stay and be bombed. When the reporter asked if he didn't think that was immoral, he changed his wording, but not the content, to say they would stand their ground and not be pushed around by Israel.

I think you have to be a pretty big chump not to see their culpability in this situation.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:So, pro-Israel apologists, let's see if I have the clear:

1) None of you are sorry that 7 schools have been bombed killing tens of children;
2) It was actually Hamas that did it -- at least according to one Italian journalist whose story contradicts that of multiple other journalists and also doesn't account for the other six;
3) The IDF did it, but it was Hamas' fault for storing weapons in schools (note, there is no evidence weapons were stored in these schools);
4) The UN -- which has discovered and removed weapons from at least three schools -- can't be trusted to discover and remove weapons from schools.

So, this is is your story -- contradictory as it is -- and you are sticking to it, right?

If you cannot bring yourself to express sorrow over dead children, you really pretty despicable.

I have just started posting about this relatively recently and I am not an expert by far, but my point is that the Palestinians are responsible for that -- they are hiding weapons around children and innocents. I heard a Hamas guy being interviewed state that they were asking Palestinians to stay in their homes after Israel had asked them to leave because they were planning on bombing them. He was advising his own people to stay and be bombed. When the reporter asked if he didn't think that was immoral, he changed his wording, but not the content, to say they would stand their ground and not be pushed around by Israel.

I think you have to be a pretty big chump not to see their culpability in this situation.

This is a tactic to tell the world that the IDF cares about civilian lives so that when they kill civilians they can say, ‘We warned people, they didn’t leave, Hamas is using them as shields.’ This is completely ridiculous. They are saying, ‘We want the residents of the northern Gaza districts to leave their houses,’ but 250,000 people live in the northern Gaza districts. They are telling a quarter of a million people to leave their houses. That’s laughable. Where are they going to go? Not one single Gazan has come out and said they had been forced by Hamas to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields......

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:So, pro-Israel apologists, let's see if I have the clear:

1) None of you are sorry that 7 schools have been bombed killing tens of children;
2) It was actually Hamas that did it -- at least according to one Italian journalist whose story contradicts that of multiple other journalists and also doesn't account for the other six;
3) The IDF did it, but it was Hamas' fault for storing weapons in schools (note, there is no evidence weapons were stored in these schools);
4) The UN -- which has discovered and removed weapons from at least three schools -- can't be trusted to discover and remove weapons from schools.

So, this is is your story -- contradictory as it is -- and you are sticking to it, right?

If you cannot bring yourself to express sorrow over dead children, you really pretty despicable.

I have just started posting about this relatively recently and I am not an expert by far, but my point is that the Palestinians are responsible for that -- they are hiding weapons around children and innocents. I heard a Hamas guy being interviewed state that they were asking Palestinians to stay in their homes after Israel had asked them to leave because they were planning on bombing them. He was advising his own people to stay and be bombed. When the reporter asked if he didn't think that was immoral, he changed his wording, but not the content, to say they would stand their ground and not be pushed around by Israel.

I think you have to be a pretty big chump not to see their culpability in this situation.

Thanks for a reasonable reply. Of course I disagree with you, but I hope I can be agreeable about it. It is a proven fact that Hamas hides weapons around innocents. However, I don't believe that absolves Israel from responsibility for its actions that it knows will kill innocent civilians including children. Here is an analogy: many jurisdictions have prohibited high-speed police chases because such chases often end up in crashes that kill or maim innocent people. Such jurisdictions have decided it is better to allow criminals to escape rather than risk killing bystanders. In many situations, particularly those involving schools that are designated shelters, I believe that Israel has a moral imperative to error toward not killing innocents. Israel should exhaust all other alternatives before bombing a school that is full of refugees.

As for telling Palestinians to not leave their homes, one explanation is the one you suggest: that Hamas wants the people to be human shields. But, two other explanations exist:

1) there is no place for them to go. Crowds of refugees are very problematic to manage at the best of times. Given the realities of Gaza, it is near impossible -- just look at how many refugee shelters have been bombed;

2) historically, Palestinians have had very bad experiences when they abandoned their homes. When they left pre-1948 Palestine during Israel's war of independence, they were never allowed to return. Israel has declared that it will extend its buffer zone within Gaza. It is likely that anyone who leaves that zone will not be allowed to return.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am very sorry that children were killed, they should not have been, but yes, I agree on points 2-4. There is plenty of evidence that Hamas stores rockets in the schools. And uses a hospital as HQ.

I stipulated in my original post that rockets had been stored in schools. But, don't you think that Israel has alternatives to bombing the schools? If the thousands of rockets fired so far have only killed three Israelis, how much real danger could there be in a handful hidden in a school? I can understand supporting Israel taking action to defend itself. I can't understand supporting Israel taking this action, particularly given that the UN has been willing to expose and remove weapons from schools.

Edit: I meant to start off by thanking you for expressing sorrow that children were killed. I think that it is important that even those opposed to each other show humanity toward the other side.

I don't start my 'body count' at this war. I count ever Jewish life lost to suicide bombers, every American life lost to terrorists, every Muslim child's life lost to honor killings and as martyrs, every Muslim woman's life lost due to oppression, every homosexual's life lost to intolerance, and every Christian's life lost, due to Islamic hate.

When you look at terrorist violence as a whole, and roll in Islamic government sanctioned killings, you can easily see the truth. Screaming 'but the children' is merely a deflection of said truth. Deliberately done.

Oooh, you're starting the headcount since the beginning of times, are you.

Then how about this: why not include every Jewish life lost to Christian hands? Europe in the Middle Ages should keep you busy with the calculator for some time. Please report back when done.

And why not also count every Muslim life lost to Christian wars, negligence and indifference to collateral damage? Iraq and Afghanistan should also fit the bill.

[Anonymous]

Just want to add something. I looked up Rachel's tomb on Wikipedia because I was curious to know if it was still safe to visit.

I read the following: The Torah Ark in Rachel's Tomb is covered with a curtain (Hebrew: parokhet) made from the wedding gown of Nava Applebaum, a young Israeli woman who was killed by a Palestinian terrorist in a suicide bombing at Café Hillel in Jerusalem in 2003, on the eve of her wedding.[83]

We need all of the mouthpieces on each side of the conflict to admit the truths about what's going on here. I don't agree with every Israeli policy in regard to Gaza or the West Bank. I don't want innocent women and children to die. However I believe that this war is just and Israel is fighting an amoral enemy who has no regard for life. Hamas has said so. They do not care about who lives or dies because there are promises of a better life with martyrdom.

[Anonymous]

More on the murder of this Israeli-American bride by a suicide bomber:

Her father was also killed in the explosion. He was the chief ER surgeon at a Jerusalem hospital known for treating suicide bombers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nava_Applebaum

Put yourself in the shoes of an Israeli. This kind of fear builds and builds and Hamas will stop at nothing until Israel is destroyed.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to add something. I looked up Rachel's tomb on Wikipedia because I was curious to know if it was still safe to visit.

I read the following: The Torah Ark in Rachel's Tomb is covered with a curtain (Hebrew: parokhet) made from the wedding gown of Nava Applebaum, a young Israeli woman who was killed by a Palestinian terrorist in a suicide bombing at Café Hillel in Jerusalem in 2003, on the eve of her wedding.[83]

We need all of the mouthpieces on each side of the conflict to admit the truths about what's going on here. I don't agree with every Israeli policy in regard to Gaza or the West Bank. I don't want innocent women and children to die. However I believe that this war is just and Israel is fighting an amoral enemy who has no regard for life. Hamas has said so. They do not care about who lives or dies because there are promises of a better life with martyrdom.

I keep coming back to the same thing. I have always condemned suicide bombings. Hamas has stopped them and hasn't claimed one in over 5 years. Any child in Gaza was not even born when Nava Applebaum was killed. I don't believe that Nava Applebaum's death is justification for killing over 200 Palestinian children today. The Israelis are smart people. I have to believe that they can think of a better alternative than bombing designated shelters that are full of children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to add something. I looked up Rachel's tomb on Wikipedia because I was curious to know if it was still safe to visit.

I read the following: The Torah Ark in Rachel's Tomb is covered with a curtain (Hebrew: parokhet) made from the wedding gown of Nava Applebaum, a young Israeli woman who was killed by a Palestinian terrorist in a suicide bombing at Café Hillel in Jerusalem in 2003, on the eve of her wedding.[83]

We need all of the mouthpieces on each side of the conflict to admit the truths about what's going on here. I don't agree with every Israeli policy in regard to Gaza or the West Bank. I don't want innocent women and children to die. However I believe that this war is just and Israel is fighting an amoral enemy who has no regard for life. Hamas has said so. They do not care about who lives or dies because there are promises of a better life with martyrdom.

Israel condones and supports with all its government machine the crazy right-wing settler movement that believes the entire land of Israel must be settled because GOD TOLD THEM SO. They do not care who else lives there now. They intimidate, throw rocks and shoot at neighboring Palestinians with full support of IDF. When Palestinians respond, IDF moves in and arrests them. The special irony is that the body charged with protecting Palestinians from settlers is the Israeli police who are like cabs, never around when you need them. The body charged with protecting the settlers from Palestinians is the IDF who is always around, watches silently as settlers throw stones but pounce on the Palestinian kids the second they throw something back.

[Anonymous]

Everytime Israel kills children, this image comes to my mind from Israel-Lebanon conflict in 2006:



Disgusting.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:So, pro-Israel apologists, let's see if I have the clear:

1) None of you are sorry that 7 schools have been bombed killing tens of children;
2) It was actually Hamas that did it -- at least according to one Italian journalist whose story contradicts that of multiple other journalists and also doesn't account for the other six;
3) The IDF did it, but it was Hamas' fault for storing weapons in schools (note, there is no evidence weapons were stored in these schools);
4) The UN -- which has discovered and removed weapons from at least three schools -- can't be trusted to discover and remove weapons from schools.

So, this is is your story -- contradictory as it is -- and you are sticking to it, right?

If you cannot bring yourself to express sorrow over dead children, you really pretty despicable.

I have just started posting about this relatively recently and I am not an expert by far, but my point is that the Palestinians are responsible for that -- they are hiding weapons around children and innocents. I heard a Hamas guy being interviewed state that they were asking Palestinians to stay in their homes after Israel had asked them to leave because they were planning on bombing them. He was advising his own people to stay and be bombed. When the reporter asked if he didn't think that was immoral, he changed his wording, but not the content, to say they would stand their ground and not be pushed around by Israel.

I think you have to be a pretty big chump not to see their culpability in this situation.

Thanks for a reasonable reply. Of course I disagree with you, but I hope I can be agreeable about it. It is a proven fact that Hamas hides weapons around innocents. However, I don't believe that absolves Israel from responsibility for its actions that it knows will kill innocent civilians including children. Here is an analogy: many jurisdictions have prohibited high-speed police chases because such chases often end up in crashes that kill or maim innocent people. Such jurisdictions have decided it is better to allow criminals to escape rather than risk killing bystanders. In many situations, particularly those involving schools that are designated shelters, I believe that Israel has a moral imperative to error toward not killing innocents. Israel should exhaust all other alternatives before bombing a school that is full of refugees.

As for telling Palestinians to not leave their homes, one explanation is the one you suggest: that Hamas wants the people to be human shields. But, two other explanations exist:

1) there is no place for them to go. Crowds of refugees are very problematic to manage at the best of times. Given the realities of Gaza, it is near impossible -- just look at how many refugee shelters have been bombed;

2) historically, Palestinians have had very bad experiences when they abandoned their homes. When they left pre-1948 Palestine during Israel's war of independence, they were never allowed to return. Israel has declared that it will extend its buffer zone within Gaza. It is likely that anyone who leaves that zone will not be allowed to return.

I'm the PP you are responding to. I actually totally agree with the statement in bold. I am totally non-violent and I'm not sure why I feel so strongly about this particular issue.

[Anonymous]

I think Israel just wants to kill Palestinians and expand its territorial reach into Gaza, and has given a bunch of talking points to its remaining friends whose beginning, middle and end consist entirely of "Hamas, Hamas, Hamas."

Bombing schols with kids present, regardless of what ineffective weapons are nearby, is just pathologically sick and is not something that decent humans would do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't care if it's one or 1,000 rockets in a given school. They are storing rockets in schools! They have wonderful tunnels, built with the cement Israel gave them. Why not store rockets there instead of schools? My goodness. The mentality of Hamas!

So, you support Israel's killing 20 children? That is fine with you and you have no regrets? I just want to be clear about this.

I, nor the pp, have no reason to regret. We did not kill these children. Hamas did.

Holy shit. This is too much. I cried my heart out for these children. Keep telling yourself that Hamas did it because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

What is wrong with humanity? What happened to simple compassion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't care if it's one or 1,000 rockets in a given school. They are storing rockets in schools! They have wonderful tunnels, built with the cement Israel gave them. Why not store rockets there instead of schools? My goodness. The mentality of Hamas!

So, you support Israel's killing 20 children? That is fine with you and you have no regrets? I just want to be clear about this.

I, nor the pp, have no reason to regret. We did not kill these children. Hamas did.

Holy shit. This is too much. I cried my heart out for these children. Keep telling yourself that Hamas did it because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

What is wrong with humanity? What happened to simple compassion?

I didn't say I didn't feel badly that kids are in the crossfire. I said that I have no regret because I didn't kill them. Hamas has, through their attitudes and policies. And they condone other atrocities re: the people they govern. That's simply fact.

[Anonymous]

So the moderator of site shows his anti-Semitic, I mean pro-"Palestinian" bias.

This started when "Palestinians" kidnapped and murdered three Israeli teenagers. I'm happy Israel is defending itself and teaching the terrorists a lesson. People die in wars, and if you don't want your people to die, don't start wars.