America's Top Colleges Have a Rich-Kid Problem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In response to those who have suggested that "poor" students (not sure how they're defining this term) aren't going to make it at highly- selective colleges, I'll trust that your concern is coming from the right place, but I don't think the answer is to keep the barriers to entry up. My son just completed his freshman year at a highly-ranked university with a demanding curriculum and stringent grading. He graduated from a local independent school and was very well-prepared, having written 5 or 6 research papers during high school. In contrast. he observed that some of his friends who had gone to inner-city schools or regional high schools in rural areas faced a real challenge in making the transition to college. A couple of these students had never written a research paper and had done very few essays beyond the formulaic AP requirements. What those kids did, though, was to get help when they needed it. The most selective schools have high graduation rates for a reason -- they offer support services, particularly with respect to writing, for students who enter with less preparation. Keep in mind, too, that those kids generally aren't frail flowers prone to wilting; rather, they survive and flourish. For one example, take a look at Justice Sotomayor's autobiography, My Beloved World, and her account of her experience at Princeton after coming out of an urban parochial school background. I'd say she didn't do too badly in the long run.

The one world theory...

Tell me what you mean by that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

(1) YOUR KID GOT IN TO AN IVY!!! I'M SOOO IMPRESSED! (This was the point of your post, I assume.)

(2) If you seriously think top performing kids from low performing areas "can't write a research paper," you need to get your head out of your hind region. "Writing a research paper" is not the same as invention cold-fusion, even if your perfect little snowflake insists it is and that you should send more money immediately because your LO has it SOOOOO hard. Also, it's not West Point.

(3) I see the worst writing from Ivy-leage grads. Absolutely dreadful. It doesn't mean I don't also see excellent writing from other Ivy-league grads--I do. But if they're using some writing litmus test in the Ivies, then they need to change the formula.

What happened here? Someone had too many brewskis at the Memorial Day BarBQue?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AN A- average in a school in a low-SES area often doesn't mean the same as an A- somewhere in Westchester. The best predictor of college success is rigor of high school courseload.

Also, the most selective colleges look for serious extracurriculars, with leadership and initiative. Poor kids are disadvantaged in some subtle ways here. Colleges usually don't hold it against kids who have to work. However, if kids are stuck in cul-de-sacs because they don't have a car of their own, and their parent have to work, they can't go to all of the rehearsals, practices and meetings that a serious extracurricular commitment requires.

They also aren't necessarily raised to take initiative; they are raised to toe the line. Thus, they don't start clubs at school, or do independent research projects. I've been an Ivy interviewer for a while. The upper middle class kids chatter confidently with me about their lives. Some of the middle middle class kids have trouble looking me in the eye.

Please. This is insulting. Reminds me of when I arrived at my top 30 college on a scholarship and my roommate (daughter of a Republican Senator) mentioned that "Private colleges are for people who can afford them, for everyone else there are state schools."

Your comments are disturbing.

I'm the 5:16 p.m. poster. OP, thanks for your later message clarifying your intent and your perspective.

Here's what bothers me the most. Why is it that colleges value extracurriculars over work experience? Hasn't anyone made a correlation between the "work ethic" problems of recent college grads and the fact that kids no longer grow up with paper routes, jobs at the local diner, or other typical summer jobs? I'm NOT impressed with the kids from Bethesda who go on exotic "summer study" trips. All that tells me is that Mumsy and Daddy could afford the fees.

When hiring for my small business, I took the kid who started his own business. I'd much rather find a kid who has put in a real work day and understands the value of a dollar. Working minimum wage jobs taught me to value my college education. Yes, of course there is a fine line, and some degree of extracurricular participation is valuable, but it seems that today's kids no longer deign to do mundane work. Try to find a high school babysitter! They're all too busy with extracurriculars. My kids protest because we make them help us with yard work. Everyone else in our neighborhood has a yard service. But what does this teach our kids? So many of my friends - with yard services - lament the fact that THEY cut the grass when they were kids, yet their kids aren't asked to do the same.

Sorry for going a bit off tangent here, but my point is that colleges should also value the kids who work after school and can write meaningful essays about the value of that work. A work ethic is what made this country strong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone think that the poor in America (300 million of them) are entitled to an Ivy education? The middle class can not afford 60K + yearly (240K+) There are plenty of colleges around. Why the Ivys have to take the poor? BTW, they do accept scholarship students. Why the outrage?

No one is talking about "entitlement." I believe OP started this thread by saying that higher SES groups are better prepared (perhaps better coached). That doesn't mean they aren't any less QUALIFIED.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

3) Notwithstanding the above, if you look at the research by Avery and Hoxby, what's apparent is not that poor kids aren't well-qualified for admission to highly selective colleges and universities, but that they don't even apply. This is a significant and disturbing problem that universities, including my Ivy alma mater, are just beginning to grapple with.

This is what I've seen in my experience.

I went to a high school in a blue collar town. None of us applied to Ivy League schools. It didn't even occur to us that we were qualified for the Ivy League. I was a National Merit Scholar with a boatload of sports and clubs, all honors classes, a job, and very good ACT/SAT scores. There were two dozen other kids just as qualified at my high school . No one advising us had the slightest idea how to apply to an Ivy League school or why we should consider it.

Yes, I agree. I grew up in a poor rural town and, despite getting a 1600 on the SAT, acing my AP exams (physics, chem, and calculus), and having a STEM major as a woman, no one -- my parents, my school counselors, my teachers -- even brought up the subject of applying to an elite college. It was just too out of the realm of their reality. I ended up getting a full scholarship to a great state school, but an elite school would have probably opened doors that are now forever closed to me. Not bitter -- but I will be a huge advocate for my DD when it comes time for college. I suspect part of the reason people in DC can be so rabid about this is that they have similar backgrounds to me and want better for their children.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm the 5:16 p.m. poster. OP, thanks for your later message clarifying your intent and your perspective.

Here's what bothers me the most. Why is it that colleges value extracurriculars over work experience? Hasn't anyone made a correlation between the "work ethic" problems of recent college grads and the fact that kids no longer grow up with paper routes, jobs at the local diner, or other typical summer jobs? I'm NOT impressed with the kids from Bethesda who go on exotic "summer study" trips. All that tells me is that Mumsy and Daddy could afford the fees.

When hiring for my small business, I took the kid who started his own business. I'd much rather find a kid who has put in a real work day and understands the value of a dollar. Working minimum wage jobs taught me to value my college education. Yes, of course there is a fine line, and some degree of extracurricular participation is valuable, but it seems that today's kids no longer deign to do mundane work. Try to find a high school babysitter! They're all too busy with extracurriculars. My kids protest because we make them help us with yard work. Everyone else in our neighborhood has a yard service. But what does this teach our kids? So many of my friends - with yard services - lament the fact that THEY cut the grass when they were kids, yet their kids aren't asked to do the same.

Sorry for going a bit off tangent here, but my point is that colleges should also value the kids who work after school and can write meaningful essays about the value of that work. A work ethic is what made this country strong.

Different poster here, a second poster on this thread who was slammed for, I guess I'm still not sure why. Anyway, I agree with you.

Colleges say they value work experience. Who knows if it's really true. At least, I don't think it's true that colleges place absolutely no value on real work, or that they are impressed by expensive tours of 3rd world hellholes. For example, it's pretty widely understood that you'll tank your admissions prospects if you write your essay about how "Dad paid $5K so I could go bond with poor kids in Nicaragua," which might have worked in the 1970s but now just has them rolling their eyes. Second, doing [b]nothing [/b]is clearly bad for admissions chances. Suzy Weiss, the kid with the editorial in the Wall Street Journal, found out that you can't just assume that a privileged upbringing means you can waltz into the school of your choice if you have no work, internship, volunteer, or other experience.

I do think privileged kids who can score an internship with a well-known NIH scientist still have an advantage over the kid who works at 7-11. And the 7-11 kid might improve his chances if he works his essay into a touching story about how the 7-11 job supports his impoverished mother and baby sister. I have no idea how colleges weigh the 7-11 job against playing varsity sports, probably depends on their athletic needs that year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:However, I don't think the solution is just to send kids who never had to write a research paper to an Ivy.

Why not? With the grade inflation at the Ivies these days, it doesn't really matter. Once you get in, you're entitled to a gentleman's B+.

True, this is what my Ivy friend said (won't mention school.)

[Anonymous]

I'm the 5:16 p.m. poster. OP, thanks for your later message clarifying your intent and your perspective.

Here's what bothers me the most. Why is it that colleges value extracurriculars over work experience? Hasn't anyone made a correlation between the "work ethic" problems of recent college grads and the fact that kids no longer grow up with paper routes, jobs at the local diner, or other typical summer jobs? I'm NOT impressed with the kids from Bethesda who go on exotic "summer study" trips. All that tells me is that Mumsy and Daddy could afford the fees.

When hiring for my small business, I took the kid who started his own business. I'd much rather find a kid who has put in a real work day and understands the value of a dollar. Working minimum wage jobs taught me to value my college education. Yes, of course ere is a fine line, and some degree of extracurricular participation is valuable, but it seems that today's kids no longer deign to do mundane work. Try to find a high school babysitter! They're all too busy with extracurriculars. My kids protest because we make them help us with yard work. Everyone else in our neighborhood has a yard service. But what does this teach our kids? So many of my friends - with yard services - lament the fact that THEY cut the grass when they were kids, yet their kids aren't asked to do the same.

Sorry for going a bit off tangent here, but my point is that colleges should also value the kids who work after school and can write meaningful essays about the value of that work. A work ethic is what made this country strong.


How true! Even worse than the summer trips to exotic locals would be the rich parents who instead of making their kid work or take some community college course while awaiting the second semester acceptance to the elite school sends them to "study" abroad instead. No wonder these kids "chat effortlessly" about their lives to college interviewers, everything has been so easy, so the words come easily too. My upper middle class daughter was completely intimidated by the encounter with this kid as all she could say was she was waiting it out at MC.

I grew up in this area and had a great high school education, multiple APs in the late 70s, etc, etc. Its all about the kid and how hard they are willing to work as time goes on. I know a top surgeon whose high school didn't even offer the courses I took. He made up for it later at a so, so college, being the top of his class. He knew how to work. I really don't know what will happen to these pampered kids in the work world.

[Anonymous]

How true! Even worse than the summer trips to exotic locals would be the rich parents who instead of making their kid work or take some community college course while awaiting the second semester acceptance to the elite school sends them to "study" abroad instead. No wonder these kids "chat effortlessly" about their lives to college interviewers, everything has been so easy, so the words come easily too. My upper middle class daughter was completely intimidated by the encounter with this kid as all she could say was she was waiting it out at MC.

I grew up in this area and had a great high school education, multiple APs in the late 70s, etc, etc. Its all about the kid and how hard they are willing to work as time goes on. I know a top surgeon whose high school didn't even offer the courses I took. He made up for it later at a so, so college, being the top of his class. He knew how to work. I really don't know what will happen to these pampered kids in the work world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone think that the poor in America (300 million of them) are entitled to an Ivy education? The middle class can not afford 60K + yearly (240K+) There are plenty of colleges around. Why the Ivys have to take the poor? BTW, they do accept scholarship students. Why the outrage?

So, there are 300 million poor in the United States? That is the entire population of the country. I do not see outrage, but I see problems for these institutions if they become increasingly insulated and isolated from the larger society. Are they to be stepping stones in upward mobility or the bastions of a narrow socio-economic privilege?

Just for the sake of argument -- you state (as have several others) that there will be "problems for these institutions if they become increasingly insulated and isolated from the larger society." What problems, exactly? Haven't these institutions ALWAYS been "insulated and isolated?" Haven't they always been "bastions of a narrow socio-economic privilege?" Isn't that why all the DCUM parents are striving to get their special little flowers into an Ivy? (Certainly not because they're bastions of equality, diversity and downward mobility.)

As a former middle class college student myself (truly middle class, not DCUM "middle class") I agree with the theory that most folks in that socio-economic position don't qualify for enough aid to make themselves whole as compared to a good state university, and many don't see the value in going into massive amount of debt for the sole purpose of covering their degree with a gloss of Ivy. This is a rational choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would anyone think that the poor in America (300 million of them) are entitled to an Ivy education? The middle class can not afford 60K + yearly (240K+) There are plenty of colleges around. Why the Ivys have to take the poor? BTW, they do accept scholarship students. Why the outrage?

So, there are 300 million poor in the United States? That is the entire population of the country. I do not see outrage, but I see problems for these institutions if they become increasingly insulated and isolated from the larger society. Are they to be stepping stones in upward mobility or the bastions of a narrow socio-economic privilege?

Just for the sake of argument -- you state (as have several others) that there will be "problems for these institutions if they become increasingly insulated and isolated from the larger society." What problems, exactly? Haven't these institutions ALWAYS been "insulated and isolated?" Haven't they always been "bastions of a narrow socio-economic privilege?" Isn't that why all the DCUM parents are striving to get their special little flowers into an Ivy? (Certainly not because they're bastions of equality, diversity and downward mobility.)

As a former middle class college student myself (truly middle class, not DCUM "middle class") I agree with the theory that most folks in that socio-economic position don't qualify for enough aid to make themselves whole as compared to a good state university, and many don't see the value in going into massive amount of debt for the sole purpose of covering their degree with a gloss of Ivy. This is a rational choice.

To have a degree from a select few institutions is valuable. You cannot hope to be SCOTUS or POTUS without it. Of course, that does not meant that you will not go onto become very successful. But you cannot deny that it is a stepping stone to opportunities that are forever shut to those who do not possess it.

[Anonymous]

Really? What were the alma maters of our last 10 Presidents?

Obama - Columbia University
Bush II - Yale (legacy)
Clinton - Georgetown
Bush I - Yale
Reagan - Eureka College
Carter - United States Naval Academy
Ford - Michigan
Nixon - Whittier College
LBJ - Southwest Texas State Teachers College
(Texas State University - San Marcos)
JFK - Harvard

In our entire history, only 13 Presidents have graduated from an Ivy League School.

[Anonymous]

At least 10 of our Presidents never attended any college or university, and of those, one of them - Abraham Lincoln - had only 1 year of formal schooling yet grew to become the greatest of American Presidents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:However, I don't think the solution is just to send kids who never had to write a research paper to an Ivy.

Why not? With the grade inflation at the Ivies these days, it doesn't really matter. Once you get in, you're entitled to a gentleman's B+.

True, this is what my Ivy friend said (won't mention school.)

This hasn't been the experience of my Ivy friends or the kids I know, at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Really? What were the alma maters of our last 10 Presidents?

Obama - Columbia University
Bush II - Yale (legacy)
Clinton - Georgetown
Bush I - Yale
Reagan - Eureka College
Carter - United States Naval Academy
Ford - Michigan
Nixon - Whittier College
LBJ - Southwest Texas State Teachers College
(Texas State University - San Marcos)
JFK - Harvard

In our entire history, only 13 Presidents have graduated from an Ivy League School.

Not saying it's right, but it looks like the Ivies are more important in the recent past. Abe Lincoln was, after all, president about 140 years ago. Maybe our country's fascination with educational status us a fairly recent phenomenon.