What makes MoCO so great?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not in Virginia.

+1. Enough said!

There is this, definitely.

[Anonymous]

In what way is "The purpose of Curriculum 2.0 is to hold back the top in order to close the achievement gap" not a conspiracy theory?

Now, as it happens, I like Curriculum 2.0. But I would ask this even if I didn't.

I don't think there is any need to use the term conspiracy theory but the combination of Curriculum 2.0 and Starr's vision for MCPS is pretty straightforward about ONLY teaching to the new proficiency level. Closing the achievement gap is one of MCPS's primary goals. One way to do this is to bring both ends to the middle. If you no longer assess top performing students in the same manner and discourage them from moving ahead when they are ready or at least don't spend any time teaching them, you will shorten the recorded range of the gap. Curriculum 2.0 also include a significant amount of repetition. Instead of providing students at the bottom with more assistance the first time around, they can hopefully catch it the next time. This doesn't work. What makes me so annoyed by all this is that I actually care more about the underperforming students than the over performing students. (My kids and probably your kids will be fine. We'll teach them at home after school and if it gets worse we can always go to private or hire tutors.)

In order to close the meaningful way (not just produce fake numbers) MCPS NEEDS to think about doing things differently. I don't believe for a second that the top performing students are just genetically gifted. They are getting more one on one attention from their parents at home, supplemental work outside, and being exposed to academics much earlier. MCPS rides on these coat tails in over performing areas and then wonders why it fails kids who don't have these advantages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I am moving out of the city now, I will go to Fairfax.

If you think Fairfax schools are better than MoCo then you are seriously misguided.

How so?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:but the combination of Curriculum 2.0 and Starr's vision for MCPS is pretty straightforward about ONLY teaching to the new proficiency level.

What is the evidence for this?

Whereas I can provide evidence that they are bragging about better performance at the top -- which would, without better performance at the bottom, actually increase the achievement gap. See here, for example:

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/boe/meetings/agenda/2013/021213/08%200%20Systemic%20Approach%20to%20Achieve%20Gap.pdf

What's more, C 2.0 is more than just a new report card format and the end of Math Pathways.

[Anonymous]

Opportunities for advanced kids are far and away superior in MoCo at the MS and HS levels because DC won't do much ability grouping for political reasons (politicians fearing that most upper level kids will not be AA).

At the MoCO test-in MS magnets, nearly all the kids test advanced on standardizes tests, vs. only 75%-80% at the best DC middle school programs (Washington Latin and Deal). What happens in DC, is that no matter how advanced your kid is, they get tossed into MS classes with a good many kids lacking basic skills. They're only allowed to get into same-ability classes for most subjects in 9th grade, which is a bit too late. Hence, MoCo gets more kids into every Ivy League School from a single top high school program, like the Blair math magnet, than the entire DC public school system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In what way is "The purpose of Curriculum 2.0 is to hold back the top in order to close the achievement gap" not a conspiracy theory?

Now, as it happens, I like Curriculum 2.0. But I would ask this even if I didn't.

I don't think there is any need to use the term conspiracy theory but the combination of Curriculum 2.0 and Starr's vision for MCPS is pretty straightforward about ONLY teaching to the new proficiency level. Closing the achievement gap is one of MCPS's primary goals. One way to do this is to bring both ends to the middle. If you no longer assess top performing students in the same manner and discourage them from moving ahead when they are ready or at least don't spend any time teaching them, you will shorten the recorded range of the gap. Curriculum 2.0 also include a significant amount of repetition. Instead of providing students at the bottom with more assistance the first time around, they can hopefully catch it the next time. This doesn't work. What makes me so annoyed by all this is that I actually care more about the underperforming students than the over performing students. (My kids and probably your kids will be fine. We'll teach them at home after school and if it gets worse we can always go to private or hire tutors.)

In order to close the meaningful way (not just produce fake numbers) MCPS NEEDS to think about doing things differently. I don't believe for a second that the top performing students are just genetically gifted. They are getting more one on one attention from their parents at home, supplemental work outside, and being exposed to academics much earlier. MCPS rides on these coat tails in over performing areas and then wonders why it fails kids who don't have these advantages.

This is true in just about every public school system I've encountered where there's a mix of affluence and lower SES folks. It's a social/political issue. Not sure you can pin all the blame on MCPS or any other school district for this.

[Anonymous]

Please take into consideration the principals.
In the name of equity principals can get rid of the best teachers.
Other principals, fearing about their job security do what the chief staffer askes them to do and harrass the seasoned teachers and force them to leave, regardless of how great she might be.
I teach 1 day in a school with an awesome music teacher.
The things that are being done by the newly appointed pricnipal to get rid of her are impossible to believe.
Staffers do not mess with certain principals and those become great schools.
Parents who are really involved in schools can make a lot of difference. Strong PTA makes a lot of difference in a school and sustains quality instruction for all regardless of how many parents a child has,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If I am moving out of the city now, I will go to Fairfax.

Only if I work in Virginia. My co-workers who live out there and further are always biatching about their horrible commute and talking about the day they can retire from the madness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Howard County. Look at Howard County.

Not all points of HC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Howard County. Look at Howard County.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In what way is "The purpose of Curriculum 2.0 is to hold back the top in order to close the achievement gap" not a conspiracy theory?

Now, as it happens, I like Curriculum 2.0. But I would ask this even if I didn't.

I don't think there is any need to use the term conspiracy theory but the combination of Curriculum 2.0 and Starr's vision for MCPS is pretty straightforward about ONLY teaching to the new proficiency level. Closing the achievement gap is one of MCPS's primary goals. One way to do this is to bring both ends to the middle. If you no longer assess top performing students in the same manner and discourage them from moving ahead when they are ready or at least don't spend any time teaching them, you will shorten the recorded range of the gap. Curriculum 2.0 also include a significant amount of repetition. Instead of providing students at the bottom with more assistance the first time around, they can hopefully catch it the next time. This doesn't work. What makes me so annoyed by all this is that I actually care more about the underperforming students than the over performing students. (My kids and probably your kids will be fine. We'll teach them at home after school and if it gets worse we can always go to private or hire tutors.)

In order to close the meaningful way (not just produce fake numbers) MCPS NEEDS to think about doing things differently. I don't believe for a second that the top performing students are just genetically gifted. They are getting more one on one attention from their parents at home, supplemental work outside, and being exposed to academics much earlier. MCPS rides on these coat tails in over performing areas and then wonders why it fails kids who don't have these advantages.

I know a kid who was moved ahead a grade earlier this year under 2.0. " shrugs"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Howard County (for now) has a different socio-economic make-up than MoCo so you can't compare the schools. They have far fewer English learners and kids who come to K unprepared. That doesn't mean they provide a better education.

That's a good point. The average SAT score in MoCo was 1651 last year and it was 1632 in Howard county. If anything this suggests the education in MoCo is better, perhaps significantly.

I don't think you can make that statement. One school district might have a higher average SAT score because it *attracts* more high-performing students (i.e. MOCO has this hyped up reputation, so parents who are very involved in the education of their kids tend to flock there, and so there is a disproportionate number of top MD students in MOCO).

I really don't think you can use average scores to claim that the education is better. Scores don't tell the entire story. I would wager money that there are a large number of high-scoring students who would score the same on the SATs even if you moved them to an entirely different district, perhaps even an underperforming one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Howard County (for now) has a different socio-economic make-up than MoCo so you can't compare the schools. They have far fewer English learners and kids who come to K unprepared. That doesn't mean they provide a better education.

That's a good point. The average SAT score in MoCo was 1651 last year and it was 1632 in Howard county. If anything this suggests the education in MoCo is better, perhaps significantly.

I don't think you can make that statement. One school district might have a higher average SAT score because it *attracts* more high-performing students (i.e. MOCO has this hyped up reputation, so parents who are very involved in the education of their kids tend to flock there, and so there is a disproportionate number of top MD students in MOCO).

I really don't think you can use average scores to claim that the education is better. Scores don't tell the entire story. I would wager money that there are a large number of high-scoring students who would score the same on the SATs even if you moved them to an entirely different district, perhaps even an underperforming one.

I don't know. I don't think the vast majority of MoCo comes here with "high performing kids" because of the school system. I and everybody I know came here because it was close(ish) to where we work. Interestingly enough, my wife and I both now work in Howard county and we're thinking of moving for a better commute, so we've done some research on the schools. There are a LOT of poorer ESOL residents in MoCo, especially compared to Howard. Howard is a more affluent county (5th most in the country by last account). Not all of MoCo is like Bethesda and CC; most isn't actually.

Considering the demographics, the disparity in scores between the two would suggest that MoCo does a better job of teaching its students than HoCo does. Certainly it's hard to argue that Howard is doing a better job. That being said, IMO they're both really good school systems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Howard County (for now) has a different socio-economic make-up than MoCo so you can't compare the schools. They have far fewer English learners and kids who come to K unprepared. That doesn't mean they provide a better education.

That's a good point. The average SAT score in MoCo was 1651 last year and it was 1632 in Howard county. If anything this suggests the education in MoCo is better, perhaps significantly.

I don't think you can make that statement. One school district might have a higher average SAT score because it *attracts* more high-performing students (i.e. MOCO has this hyped up reputation, so parents who are very involved in the education of their kids tend to flock there, and so there is a disproportionate number of top MD students in MOCO).

I really don't think you can use average scores to claim that the education is better. Scores don't tell the entire story. I would wager money that there are a large number of high-scoring students who would score the same on the SATs even if you moved them to an entirely different district, perhaps even an underperforming one.

I don't know. I don't think the vast majority of MoCo comes here with "high performing kids" because of the school system. I and everybody I know came here because it was close(ish) to where we work. Interestingly enough, my wife and I both now work in Howard county and we're thinking of moving for a better commute, so we've done some research on the schools. There are a LOT of poorer ESOL residents in MoCo, especially compared to Howard. Howard is a more affluent county (5th most in the country by last account). Not all of MoCo is like Bethesda and CC; most isn't actually.

Considering the demographics, the disparity in scores between the two would suggest that MoCo does a better job of teaching its students than HoCo does. Certainly it's hard to argue that Howard is doing a better job. That being said, IMO they're both really good school systems.

Well, but if you spend time on these threads, a lot of people steer other people away from the areas in MOCO that are ESOL, and they steer people toward the higher-performing areas of MOCO. there are quite a few Silver Spring threads where people are very severe in their opinion of the schools. Those areas tend to have more affordable housing, because they're the less in-demand schools (my theory). Not all of the schools in MOCO are high performing (just from my layman's perusal of statistics). But people who are obsessed with getting their kid into an Ivy gravitate toward the high-performing schools, and I would argue that those kids get so much motivation/pressure, that that is partly why they perform better. I'm almost certain that MOCO has a higher concentration of wealth than Howard County. In fact, I believe MOCO is one of the wealthiest counties in the country.

My argument is that basically it makes a difference if a kid grows up with the expectation and pressure that he/she is definitely going to college and an elite one at that. If a kid grows up with perfectly good parents but the overall expectation in the community, et cetera, is that college is more of a dream than a reality and that success is defined as passing and finishing high school, those kids aren't going to perform at the same level. (And yes, these are generalizations and don't take into account individual differences, motivations, learning disabilities, but just a sweeping generalization that I still think is relevant and why I don't think test score averages tell the whole story.) I think that in the past few decades, the reputation of MOCO schools have caused a lot of highly motivated parents who raise their kids with the expectation of college to swarm to those MOCO schools with that reputation. So it kind of feeds itself. The SES of the areas that feed to MOCO reflect it as well, as those tend to be wealthier areas. As the reputation picks up, the value of houses goes up, partly because of the school pyramid. Those scores stay high partly (I'm not saying the teachers aren't good) because the school attracts a lot of kids that are getting a lot of motivation and support from home.

I'm not saying they aren't good schools. What I am saying is that I don't know that you can draw the conclusion from scores that one school is better than another. It's sort of like a private school that only admits kids with high scores. Well, that school is then going to have a disproportionate number of high-scoring students, and overall the school will have a higher average of scores. But you can't automatically say it's because the school itself is better. Part of it is that it attracts those students (and in the case of some elite private schools, only admits those students). But I would say in certain areas of MOCO, the price of real estate there is the barrier to entry; it's an indirect way of limiting admittance to those high-performing public schools because only people of certain means can afford to move there.

This is all theory and conjecture on my part. And I am not saying that MOCO isn't great. I just think that scores don't tell the whole story.

[Anonymous]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

Howard is a richer county in terms of median income. But the Bethesda and Potamac area is probably richer than anywhere else in the DC metro area.