S/O - not agreeing on ADHD Medication - uncensored

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And I'd like to add....

no one has ever died from drinking Apple Cider Vinegar. BUT, if you gave a child a pharmaceutical antifungal, like diflucan, there are risks of severe liver damage. THAT is scary for a young child.

Alpha Lipoic Acid is safe, natural, and effective. I cannot, for the life of me, find anything online that says that it is unsafe. BUT, if you look up chelation that has been administered by medical doctors who use pharmaceuticals for chelation, then YES it is very scary.

I see a common theme here. Anyone else?

WebMD said that ALA is not recommended for children given the lack of evidence about it's safety. Also, it is used mainly as an alternative treatment for neuropathy.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/lifestyle-guide-11/supplement-guide-alpha-lipoic-acid

Apple Cider Vinegar does have health risks according to WebMD.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/apple-cider-vinegar

I took note of the final sentences in the ACV article that I think is very fitting here:

Right now, there is not enough evidence that apple cider vinegar -- or any vinegar -- has any health benefit for any condition. Since the benefits are unknown, so are the risks.

If you're thinking about trying apple cider vinegar, talk to your doctor first. It's always worth getting an expert's advice. Your doctor can also make sure that the apple cider vinegar won't affect other health conditions or the effectiveness of the medicines you take. Trying to control a serious medical condition on your own with an unproven treatment is both unwise and dangerous.

[Anonymous]

The digestive enzymes found in supplements are comprised of pancreatin which is usually obtained from the pancreas of pigs or cows.

There is a risk of increased levels of uric acid in the blood or colon damage. It's also not recommended for children.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Let's get something straight. You did NOT remove one of my posts. You did not warn "me" about anything. I didn't post anything at all, (let alone anything offensive), to that first thread! My only post was the one where I asked why you were treating this thread differently than you treat other threads. I was objecting to the censorhip in general, not to some censorship of ME, because that did not happen. I essentially saw a thread where you were telling people they could only respond within very specific parameters and admonishing others who were taking the husband's POV. I simply advocated that this was legitimate and germane to the conversation, and made the MIL example where others might conceivably challenge the OP to think outside her question. Subsequently, I discussed how I've learned a lot from answers to questions I didn't actually ask. Nothing in that was offensive or "zealot" like.

There is a basic inconsistency in the two bolded sentences above. Either you "didn't post anything at all" or you posted a message that "asked why you were treating this thread differently". Only one of those could be true. If you indeed posted a message challenging me about my "censorship", then that post would have been off topic and in contradiction to the two posts of mine in that thread. It doesn't really matter whether your issue was medicine or censorship. Either way, if you posted as you suggest, you ignored both the original poster's desire and my explicit warnings. Maybe that does not make you a zealot, but it doesn't make you pretty uncooperative.

It is a pretty frequent occurrence that a poster suddenly finds a case of my acting inconsistently and, for some reason, feels the need to turn it into a federal case. Having gone through this several times, I have very little patience for it. If you are expecting total, 100% consistency, you are in the wrong place. As I have previously said, the other thread was reported to me. I was specifically asked to keep an eye on it based on the likelihood that it would turn into another unproductive dustup. If/when you start a mother-in-law thread and you want me to keep an eye on it, please let me know. If I fail to perform the duties of a moderator at that time, you can then complain about my inconsistency.

[Anonymous]

Oh good grief. Yes, sorry, I was missing the word "before" in my bolded sentences. I think you're deliberately missing the point. Here it is:

1. I did not post any anti-med comments on that thread
2. Only AFTER you posted something asking for no replies that did not expressly address persuading the husband did I weigh in.
3. At that point, my ONE post simply said: "why is this different than another issue where posters assume the opposing POV?"
4. When a spin-off thread was created, I took my objection there, as you requested.
5. When I voiced said objection, you called me a zealot and assumed I was one of the PPs badgering OP about over-medication.

I see you are now reducing the charges from zealot to "uncooperative." Why can't you just admit that you jumped to a bad conclusion? I see you've now removed the entire exchange, so I can't even go back and repost my only comment, which was extremely mild.

About expecting 100 percent consistency - point taken. I even get that SN forum gets stricter control. Fine. Agree to disagree on merits of that approach. What pisses me off is that you, and a few other posters, are ganging up on me, attributing things to me that I never actually said, and name-calling.

I think you know you shouldn't have name-called and were mistaking me for someone else, and you just don't want to back down now. That sucks. But oh well. Continuing to fight with the site admin is like batting my head against a wall. Totally pointless. If control the playing field so, again, oh well I guess.

It's too bad. We agree on nearly anything, and I think we are copacetic on most issues. I've blogged once or twice on your main page. But now I'm a zealot, unwelcome, and uncooperative. Sheesh. Uncool, but that's all I have to say about that.

[Anonymous]

Calm down. You've made your point, over and over again, and its time to move on. The only thing that happened here is that the moderator moved a side discussion off a thread, and has now allowed it to resume elsewhere. This is not censorship, not even close. I, for one, am glad that someone is stepping in to try to control some of the excesses here.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I see you are now reducing the charges from zealot to "uncooperative." Why can't you just admit that you jumped to a bad conclusion? I see you've now removed the entire exchange, so I can't even go back and repost my only comment, which was extremely mild.

If you are offended that I called you a zealot, then I apologize for calling you a zealot. I obviously could not go back and see which messages of yours I may have deleted, because deleted messages are, well, deleted. Given that they no longer exist, I can't go back and check them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Can I ask if you were to suffer from depression would you avoid medication?

I have been through depression. I find that life ebbs and flows in such a way that we all have depressive moments, anxious moments, and then times when we experience joy and ease in our lives. I've never medicated for any of my highs or lows. No need since the moments seem to pass as suddenly as they come on.

Then you have never been clinically depressed. Sorry!

For the poster who listed all of the alternative treatments and mentioned a connection between ADHD and a gut disorder - you do know that ADHD and autism are completely different disorders, yes? Completely different neurological conditions? Treatments for one do not equate to treatments for the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Can I ask if you were to suffer from depression would you avoid medication?

I have been through depression. I find that life ebbs and flows in such a way that we all have depressive moments, anxious moments, and then times when we experience joy and ease in our lives. I've never medicated for any of my highs or lows. No need since the moments seem to pass as suddenly as they come on.

Then you have never been clinically depressed. Sorry!

For the poster who listed all of the alternative treatments and mentioned a connection between ADHD and a gut disorder - you do know that ADHD and autism are completely different disorders, yes? Completely different neurological conditions? Treatments for one do not equate to treatments for the other.

That is your opinion. Since there is no scientific/physical test for each of these, you have no way to prove that the are NOT related.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Can I ask if you were to suffer from depression would you avoid medication?

I have been through depression. I find that life ebbs and flows in such a way that we all have depressive moments, anxious moments, and then times when we experience joy and ease in our lives. I've never medicated for any of my highs or lows. No need since the moments seem to pass as suddenly as they come on.

Then you have never been clinically depressed. Sorry!

For the poster who listed all of the alternative treatments and mentioned a connection between ADHD and a gut disorder - you do know that ADHD and autism are completely different disorders, yes? Completely different neurological conditions? Treatments for one do not equate to treatments for the other.

That is your opinion. Since there is no scientific/physical test for each of these, you have no way to prove that the are NOT related.

10:54 here. Despite what CHADD and the pharmaceutical literature would have you believe, there is no evidence that ADHD is a biological brain disorder. That is just a theory based on the way that medication alters behavior. A diagnosis of ADHD is based on a subjective assessment of observable behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Can I ask if you were to suffer from depression would you avoid medication?

I have been through depression. I find that life ebbs and flows in such a way that we all have depressive moments, anxious moments, and then times when we experience joy and ease in our lives. I've never medicated for any of my highs or lows. No need since the moments seem to pass as suddenly as they come on.

Then you have never been clinically depressed. Sorry!

For the poster who listed all of the alternative treatments and mentioned a connection between ADHD and a gut disorder - you do know that ADHD and autism are completely different disorders, yes? Completely different neurological conditions? Treatments for one do not equate to treatments for the other.

That is your opinion. Since there is no scientific/physical test for each of these, you have no way to prove that the are NOT related.

10:54 here. Despite what CHADD and the pharmaceutical literature would have you believe, there is no evidence that ADHD is a biological brain disorder. That is just a theory based on the way that medication alters behavior. A diagnosis of ADHD is based on a subjective assessment of observable behaviors.

I don't think this is correct. I think there is discrete evidence via MRI technology that ADHD is a biological brain disorder.

[Anonymous]

http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/nov2007/nimh-12.htm

[Anonymous]

10:54 here. Despite what CHADD and the pharmaceutical literature would have you believe, there is no evidence that ADHD is a biological brain disorder. That is just a theory based on the way that medication alters behavior. A diagnosis of ADHD is based on a subjective assessment of observable behaviors.

You are incorrect. Johns Hopkins and NIH have both found evidence that ADHD brains are different than normal brains and NIH has identified a gene associated with increased liklihood of ADHD. They aren't yet able to diagnose ADHD based on brain images or genes but they have clearly identfied that it is a neurobiological disorder. We participate in this research at NIH and are happy to contribute to better understanding of ADHD. Also there are a number of disorders/illnesses for which there is no objective test - ALS is one of them http://www.alsa.org/about-als/diagnosing-als.html I don't hear anyone claiming it's a disorder dreamed up by drug companies.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2007/gene-predicts-better-outcome-as-cortex-normalizes-in-teens-with-adhd.shtml
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2007/brain-matures-a-few-years-late-in-adhd-but-follows-normal-pattern.shtml
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/science-news/2006/brain-changes-mirror-symptoms-in-adhd.shtml
http://www.kennedykrieger.org/overview/news/novel-imaging-technique-reveals-brain-abnormalities-may-play-key-role-adhd
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110609112915.htm

[Anonymous]

Much of the criticism surrounding brain imaging research is that the studies have not adequately controlled for prior medication use so that there is no way to discern if the differences are due to brain development or the effects of medication.

http://psychrights.org/research/Digest/NLPs/neruoimagingupdate.pdf
"We pointed out the difficulty in drawing meaningful conclusions from this
body of research because of a significant confounding variable: prior or current
medication use by the ADHD patients. As we documented, in the large
majority of ADHD neuroimaging studies, researchers have compared brain
scans from normal control subjects to brain scans from medicated ADHD
subjects. This makes it difficult to know if between-group differences
reported by researchers might result from an idiopathic organic brain defect
— as implied or stated in most studies — or from brain changes resulting
from prior drug use by the subjects diagnosed with ADHD. Critics over the
past decade pointed out that prior medication use constitutes an important
potential confounding variable that limits the validity of these studies, but
most researchers have continued to use medicated patients in their studies,
sometimes without acknowledgement of the issue."

PP is correct that MRIs are not a valid diagnostic tool as cautioned by the researchers in the articles PP cited.

The genetic marker research is very preliminary. I hope that if such a test ever does become available, it can help differentiate between those that really require medicine to function vs. those who are occasionally "day dreamy". My concern is how all people labeled with ADHD are lumped into one big category. Even though there are the subtypes in the DSM, the treatment is the same.

In my ideal world, ADHD medication would be used with extreme caution. There is always a risk vs. benefit analysis that needs to be done when considering taking any medication - especially those that have known risks and are used over a long period of time on children with developing brains.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would like to know what the anti-medicine crowd thinks is the answer when you have a moderate to extreme ADHD case and you've exhausted all other options. We have done therapy, OT, lots of physical activity, elimination diets, behavior plans, sensory tools. Are you suggesting you just let your otherwise bright, likable child flounder and not reach their potential?

Mom of autistic child here....not aspergers or HF autism, moderate functioning. I would consider my child to be more difficult to handle than any extreme case of ADHD. My answer to this post would be this.....OT, Therapy, physical activity, behavior plans and sensory tools are NOT substitutes for alternative medicine. Nor would I consider an "elimination diet" to be any therapeudic means of treating a child. This list is not exhaustive at all. I could sit here and list off a few dozen things, not to mention the hundreds of supplements, that are possibilities.

Has this OP ever ventured to explore a DAN! doctor or DAN! protocol? Was there any allergy testing? Any stool samples for beneficial flora, anaerobic bacterias, parasites, yeast/fungus or PANDAS? Any heavy-metal testing done? Any testing for celiacs? EGG for possible seizure activity during sleep? Nutritional deficiencies? Leaky Gut?

Since there was zero mention of any alternative approaches listed at all, and no medical testing that I could possibly be aware of, I can only assume that no other medicinal approaches had been considered other than medication. Only a parent who has BTDT with medical testing can speak the language of exploring all the options. It is a given that any parent would run to "therapy" first, as that is the starting place for everyone. It's no shock to me that it failed because there was no emphasis put on the health of the child, only their behavior.

If behavior were the only aspect involved in ADHD then #1. it's parenting and #2. How can you explain someone's behavior when they drink alcohol or take drugs? We KNOW it is not a behavior problem, so don't get your pants in a fluff and say that I'm calling you a bad parent...No one here is a bad parent. There is a gut/brain connection that is not being addressed in these children. Medical intervention is needed, but not psychological drugs. How is an antidepressent or stimulant going to fix a leaky gut? I think that if the right questions are asked, you can get down to some good detailed medical explanations of WHY the child has a particular disorder.

To list off just a FEW of the alternative interventions, see below. If you don't know what they mean, that should give you some level of your knowledge of what types of therapy exist out there for neurological disorders. Picking one of these is not going to cure any child. But picking a few that seem to fit your child will set healing in motion. Once you've gotten a taste of what it looks like to see your child heal, it gets exciting.

1. HBOT
2. Homeopathy
3. DMSA/ALA
4. Enzyme therapy
5. NAET
6. Neuromodulation Technique
7. Antiviral Therapy
8. Antifungal therapy
9. Methyl B12 shots
10. Essential Oils
11. Craniosacral therapy
12. neurofeedback

etc, etc, etc.

That seems like putting a child through a lot of unproven tests and treatments for a condition that already has a treatment that has been proven safe and effective. You are going through a lot of trouble to avoid medications that are safer than half of what you've listed. I think you are so stuck on the idea that the medications are bad that you are not considering what is common sense.
I am especially suprised that you believe treating a child with antifungals or antivirals or injecting B12 is a better alternative to stimulants! Those medications have serious albeit rare side effects.

Moreover, that person must have tons of money to be able to pursue so many treatments, few of which insurance will cover. Neurofeedback, which is one of the less extreme "alternative" treatments in that list, costs thousands of dollars in its own right typically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
1. HBOT
2. Homeopathy
3. DMSA/ALA
4. Enzyme therapy
5. NAET
6. Neuromodulation Technique
7. Antiviral Therapy
8. Antifungal therapy
9. Methyl B12 shots
10. Essential Oils
11. Craniosacral therapy
12. neurofeedback


Moreover, that person must have tons of money to be able to pursue so many treatments, few of which insurance will cover. Neurofeedback, which is one of the less extreme "alternative" treatments in that list, costs thousands of dollars in its own right typically.

Not so much, really. Let's take a look at these individually.

1. HBOT - I've never done it, but you need a doctors script for it, so there may be insurance companies that will pay for at least a portion. Without insurance, you still need a script, but will pay about $150 for a 2-hour dive in the HBOT tank. So, without a doctor who has one in the office and rents them out cheapy, it could get spendy. This was a last resort for me. I haven't had to consider this yet.

2. Homeopathy - depends on the homeopath, but the initial consult is anywhere from $150 to $400 because it can take 3 hours to get a full history during the consult. The homeopathic remedies themselves are very cheap...$15 at MOST. If you know anything about homeopathy, you can buy the remedies on your own for even less. Followup apts every 6 weeks can run $75 per apt.

3. DMSA/ALA - TIME is the price you pay here. It takes dedicated time and research to learn about oral chelation. The medication itself is not expensive. ALA is incredibly cheap. DMSA is about $20 for 150 capsules....more than enough for several "rounds" of chelation. The heavy metal test that you'd want to do before you begin chelation is covered by insurance. My mainstream pediatrician offered to run the test for me next time i wanted to do it.

4. Enzyme therapy - Again, Time is the price here. Enzymes are not that expensive. 1 bottle of a broad-spectrum enzyme can last a month if you're using one with every meal. Therapeudic enzymes that need to be taken on an empty stomach (for viruses/candida) are more expensive. You wont pay more than $100 per month for a good bottle of enzymes.

5. NAET - I've never done it, but I've heard that one session is about $60. You complete a handfull of allergens with each apt. I've heard very good things from people who have used NAET for allergy elimination. A friend of mine paid for 12 sessions up front in order to get a discount. You do about 1 session per week. This therapy comes to an end when you run out of allergens.

6. Neuromodulation Technique - a bit more "out there" because it is an "energetic" therapy....but more allergies get eliminated in a shorter amount of time. $75/hour is my guess at the current rate. This kind of therapy comes to an end eventually as you've eliminated any allergies that can be found. Because I was treating 3 kids, she gave me a big discount.

7. Antiviral Therapy - cheap....antivirals can be done with a doctor. You can get Valtrax for antiviral therapy and insurance covers it. You can also get Enhansa which is concentrated circumin from the spice Tumeric. It is also covered by insurance. Enzymes, garlic, and many other natural supplements have antiviral properties. None of them are expensive. Biggest investment is time to research and get to know the options.

8. Antifungal therapy -- we already know there are many pharmaceutical options here....they are paid for by insurance. There are also very cheap alternative options for this. Go to any health food store and ask.

9. Methyl B12 shots -- covered by insurance, however you have to pay for a doctor that will prescribe this....most likely a DAN! Doctor, which is not cheap.

10. Essential Oils -- each oil can be purchased between $15 - $85. There are many to choose from. I dink around with these...looking for combinations that will accellerate the healing process. Mind you, essential oils are FOOD.

11. Craniosacral therapy -- My craniosacral therapist is $100/hour. My son goes quarterly.

12. neurofeedback -- never done it. Haven't researched it. Never really considered it. But, since it is alternative and quite popular, I thought I'd mention it here.

My alternative doctor was priced at $200 per hour. Not that we needed an hour each time either. She guided me through most if not all of these therapies. I consider this a bargain basement deal considering what people are paying for ST, OT, PT.....that's out of pocket too, isn't it? My son has advanced just as quickly as those who receive intensive traditional therapies and yet I haven't spent a dime on it. In fact, he has surpassed many in his class because he is healthy and his brain is getting clearer and clearer.

The thing is....anyone using traditional medicine can do any of these therapies alongside of what they are already doing. They aren't mutually exclusive.