School revokes extra time accommodation from 504 plan

[Anonymous]

You all are not doing your kid any favors teaching your them that they need special treatment to succeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why handicap your kid with the label of being disabled? What are they going to do in the workplace when they are expected to be productive like everyone else?

GTFO of this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why handicap your kid with the label of being disabled? What are they going to do in the workplace when they are expected to be productive like everyone else?

GTFO of this forum.

Three grade levels ahead with all As and you are telling this kid he is disabled?

No YOU GTFO.

[Anonymous]

Op here. Thank you! This has been helpful ands I have to decide if I have to find a lawyer and if it’s going to be worth the trouble.

I might have let this go, but the school strong arming their way into removing the accommodation really rubs me off the wrong way.

My simple interpretation is that - there is documented expert evaluation across 5 years that his processing speed is at 5% and the rest of his ability is at 85 or 90. He works incredibly hard to make sure he does well in school. Extra time as an accommodation is recommended by experts. But school seems think that because it’s not used often enough. It is not needed. They claim it is based on data across the years. I dispute that. They claim he uses extra time ‘sometimes’ to check his work. He disagrees and says he is finishing up. They say ‘recollections may vary’ but this is the result.

[Anonymous]

This is insulting to people with kids that are actually disabled. What you all are talking about here is a f-ing joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why handicap your kid with the label of being disabled? What are they going to do in the workplace when they are expected to be productive like everyone else?

GTFO of this forum.

Three grade levels ahead with all As and you are telling this kid he is disabled?

No YOU GTFO.

+1. It’s always the “inattentive ADHD with low processing speed” people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 is a civil rights law- grades can be one factor but should not be as heavily considered as with an IEP. Have your son write a paragraph about why he needs this accommodation for math and which features of his disability neccesititate it. Prep him and have him be prepared to respond to counter arguments. You can ask to have another 504 meeting where he personally advocates for this to be added. Or you can go above the school and reach out to the district 504 coordinator with your request and possibly file for 504 mediation. Also know that school staff can be retaliatory though, whether you like it or not, so weigh how much waves you want to make. Ask me how I know.

Huh? IDEA is also a civil rights law. That is not relevant point. For 504 you have to show an accommodation is needed due to a disability and the accommodation has to be reasonable. There is a very good argument that extra time for a kid doing advanced math without needing the extra time so far, is unreasonable. But if anyone wants to understand how Stanford has 40% of students with “disabilities,” well ….

A student must show a need for special education instruction to get an IEP-typically low to failing grades provide a strong indicator . For a 504 plan, the student needs accommodations to access the curriculum to level the playing field with their general education peers. A dear colleague letter from the department of education expressed that students with 504 plans who have hidden disabilities such as learning disabilities should be able to access accommodations to fully demonstrate their abilities. If a high IQ kid has a disability, without appropriate accommodations, they may not be able to fully demonstrate their abilities. In theory, they should have 504 protections but schools often refuse to serve these students. Their high IQ masks the extent of their disability.

Thus how we get 40% of Stanford students with accommodations lol.

I don’t think “fully demonstrate abilities” is the standard for this and I don’t think it is reasonable to give kids who are academically advanced without extra time, extra time.

Your opinion is your opinion and not actually what the law says.

A disabled Einstein is still eligible for accommodation if his disability is adversely impacting his education (IEP standard) or if his disability "substantially limits a major life activity" (of which "learning" is mentioned in the statute, which states that the list in statute is "non-exclusive").

How can a student who only rarely uses an accommodation for extra time for only one class, and that class happens to be three grade level aheads show their impairment substantially limits one or more major life activities? And then only needs it check answers? The vast majority of students doing math three grade level aheads would benefit from extra time to check answers or figure out what exactly a word problem is asking.

The big benefit which then borders on being unfair is that you have time to plug the answer back in to verify it is the correct answer to check your work. Or if you don't know how to solve the problem and it is multiple choice you have time to plug all 4 or 5 answer choice back in to see which answer is correct. If that is occurring that is really not the purpose of extra time if no other student has time to do that.

As a tutor, I can say that it’s super common for kids with ADHD, for example, to finish test quickly, but to make a lot of silly errors or forgetting to answer one part of a multi part question. These kids appear to finish quickly but need extra time to go back and recheck their answers. Sometimes they’ve made a mistake that means that they actually have to rework the whole problem again.

You can be many grades ahead in math and still need this extra time to go back and check your work. Other kids don’t need to plug in the answers to make sure they’re right because they don’t make these kinds of careless errors in their work. These kinds of careless errors aren’t connected to an understanding of the material and they aren’t connected to intelligence, they’re simply a function of brain processing speed, working memory limitations, impulsivity all things that are typically an aspect of executive dysfunction and ADHD.

Your questions show your ignorance of what it means to have a learning disability or a special need.

What I find amusing as a tutor is how so many Neurotypical people believe that if only they had as much time they could do much better. As a tutor, I can tell you that that’s really not the case having an extra half an hour doesn’t mean that you can complete math material that’s several grades above level.

Also, the answer to your question about substantial limitation is that it is possible to be substantially limited and still be a performing above grade level. For example, a kid who does well in history, but who has problems with writing. Or a kid who’s able to do math two levels ahead and who understands very well. The concepts being introduced, but who has ADHD and whose handwriting is so messy that when he goes to do the math, he often makes error errors due to things like miscopying, or dropping signs. Those kinds of mistakes are unrelated to the understanding of the math.

But they are related to the performance of math. A kid who can do the same math test in the same time with fewer errors deserves the higher grade. I truly believe that.

A kid with ADHD needs to be taught to go back and check his work in the time given.

Your opinion isn't law. And think about the implication of what you are saying - if your kid can finish a math test in 45 minutes with no errors and a kid with a broken arm needs 60 minutes to finish the same test with no errors, are you really saying that your kid deserves a better grade because he was able to do it faster? A grade is about mastery of the mathematical principles that have been taught, speed is not relevant to that. Attentional errors don't have to do with misunderstanding of math, they have to do with impulse and attention control, which, for an ADHD person, may not be something they can control thru mere effort but rather medication or extra time. If students with disabilities aren't accommodated in testing environments that have conditions that are irrelevant to subject mastery (speed, noise, distraction, no calculator or no computer use) then they cannot get access to higher level learning opportunities and have lower career and earning potential, which is bad for taxpayers and bad for employers, considering that many jobs don't require speed.

You think it's unfair that disabled students get accommodations, but what's unfair is that the system requires students to compete on measures (like speed) that are irrelevant to showing mastery of what's been taught and irrelevant to future performance in many, many jobs. So, in fact, it's neurotypical students who have unfair advantages that they don't want to give up.

The broken arm isn’t a good analogy because the arm is unrelated to what is actually being tested. The better analogy is whether a kid with a broken arm needs to be allowed to pitch in the baseball game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are talking about academics not sports- plenty of corralary and no cut teams exist.
Anyway, working memory and processing speed have lower impact/weight on overall intelligence than verbal and non verbal reasoning- these are the hallmarks of intelligent behavior- your ability to reason with and without language.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is BS. He has documented low processing speed and ADHD. You need to push back even if it means hiring a lawyer. This will affect him far into the future - SAT, college accommodation, etc. You need to fight and get this changed. And if it means always taking the accommodation, then tell him to always take it.

FYI my son in MCPS with ADHD didn't always use his extra time, but they didn't take it away. I think they tried in junior high school but we pushed back and they dropped it and no one in high school tried to make him drop it.

Hot take - low processing speed and inattentive ADHD should not be accommodated with extra time. Those are vectors of intelligence and capability that are meant to be tested in timed tests, not disabilities, in the vast majority of cases. The low processing speed one especially rankles. My kid has awful motor planning skills - does that mean he deserves and accommodation to get on the football team?

Maybe the kids with higher processing speed but lower nonverbal reasoning are being unfairly discriminated against.

To be fair, a kid with median verbal reasoning skills and 99%ile processing speed may in fact be demonstrating some other kind of disability -- language or auditory processing based perhaps?

Yes that was my point. My kid has an ASD dx and blistering processing speed/working memory and poor NONverbal reasoning. Unlike kids who get to turn on and off the disability label he is visibly different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 is a civil rights law- grades can be one factor but should not be as heavily considered as with an IEP. Have your son write a paragraph about why he needs this accommodation for math and which features of his disability neccesititate it. Prep him and have him be prepared to respond to counter arguments. You can ask to have another 504 meeting where he personally advocates for this to be added. Or you can go above the school and reach out to the district 504 coordinator with your request and possibly file for 504 mediation. Also know that school staff can be retaliatory though, whether you like it or not, so weigh how much waves you want to make. Ask me how I know.

Huh? IDEA is also a civil rights law. That is not relevant point. For 504 you have to show an accommodation is needed due to a disability and the accommodation has to be reasonable. There is a very good argument that extra time for a kid doing advanced math without needing the extra time so far, is unreasonable. But if anyone wants to understand how Stanford has 40% of students with “disabilities,” well ….

A student must show a need for special education instruction to get an IEP-typically low to failing grades provide a strong indicator . For a 504 plan, the student needs accommodations to access the curriculum to level the playing field with their general education peers. A dear colleague letter from the department of education expressed that students with 504 plans who have hidden disabilities such as learning disabilities should be able to access accommodations to fully demonstrate their abilities. If a high IQ kid has a disability, without appropriate accommodations, they may not be able to fully demonstrate their abilities. In theory, they should have 504 protections but schools often refuse to serve these students. Their high IQ masks the extent of their disability.

Thus how we get 40% of Stanford students with accommodations lol.

I don’t think “fully demonstrate abilities” is the standard for this and I don’t think it is reasonable to give kids who are academically advanced without extra time, extra time.

Your opinion is your opinion and not actually what the law says.

A disabled Einstein is still eligible for accommodation if his disability is adversely impacting his education (IEP standard) or if his disability "substantially limits a major life activity" (of which "learning" is mentioned in the statute, which states that the list in statute is "non-exclusive").

How can a student who only rarely uses an accommodation for extra time for only one class, and that class happens to be three grade level aheads show their impairment substantially limits one or more major life activities? And then only needs it check answers? The vast majority of students doing math three grade level aheads would benefit from extra time to check answers or figure out what exactly a word problem is asking.

The big benefit which then borders on being unfair is that you have time to plug the answer back in to verify it is the correct answer to check your work. Or if you don't know how to solve the problem and it is multiple choice you have time to plug all 4 or 5 answer choice back in to see which answer is correct. If that is occurring that is really not the purpose of extra time if no other student has time to do that.

As a tutor, I can say that it’s super common for kids with ADHD, for example, to finish test quickly, but to make a lot of silly errors or forgetting to answer one part of a multi part question. These kids appear to finish quickly but need extra time to go back and recheck their answers. Sometimes they’ve made a mistake that means that they actually have to rework the whole problem again.

You can be many grades ahead in math and still need this extra time to go back and check your work. Other kids don’t need to plug in the answers to make sure they’re right because they don’t make these kinds of careless errors in their work. These kinds of careless errors aren’t connected to an understanding of the material and they aren’t connected to intelligence, they’re simply a function of brain processing speed, working memory limitations, impulsivity all things that are typically an aspect of executive dysfunction and ADHD.

Your questions show your ignorance of what it means to have a learning disability or a special need.

What I find amusing as a tutor is how so many Neurotypical people believe that if only they had as much time they could do much better. As a tutor, I can tell you that that’s really not the case having an extra half an hour doesn’t mean that you can complete math material that’s several grades above level.

Also, the answer to your question about substantial limitation is that it is possible to be substantially limited and still be a performing above grade level. For example, a kid who does well in history, but who has problems with writing. Or a kid who’s able to do math two levels ahead and who understands very well. The concepts being introduced, but who has ADHD and whose handwriting is so messy that when he goes to do the math, he often makes error errors due to things like miscopying, or dropping signs. Those kinds of mistakes are unrelated to the understanding of the math.

But they are related to the performance of math. A kid who can do the same math test in the same time with fewer errors deserves the higher grade. I truly believe that.

A kid with ADHD needs to be taught to go back and check his work in the time given.

Your opinion isn't law. And think about the implication of what you are saying - if your kid can finish a math test in 45 minutes with no errors and a kid with a broken arm needs 60 minutes to finish the same test with no errors, are you really saying that your kid deserves a better grade because he was able to do it faster? A grade is about mastery of the mathematical principles that have been taught, speed is not relevant to that. Attentional errors don't have to do with misunderstanding of math, they have to do with impulse and attention control, which, for an ADHD person, may not be something they can control thru mere effort but rather medication or extra time. If students with disabilities aren't accommodated in testing environments that have conditions that are irrelevant to subject mastery (speed, noise, distraction, no calculator or no computer use) then they cannot get access to higher level learning opportunities and have lower career and earning potential, which is bad for taxpayers and bad for employers, considering that many jobs don't require speed.

You think it's unfair that disabled students get accommodations, but what's unfair is that the system requires students to compete on measures (like speed) that are irrelevant to showing mastery of what's been taught and irrelevant to future performance in many, many jobs. So, in fact, it's neurotypical students who have unfair advantages that they don't want to give up.

The broken arm isn’t a good analogy because the arm is unrelated to what is actually being tested. The better analogy is whether a kid with a broken arm needs to be allowed to pitch in the baseball game.

But, speed is unrelated to demonstrating mastery of math concepts. In fact, and this is *really* going to irritate you…. So is memorization of math facts and computation by pencil (calculator accommodation), memorization of formulas (memory aide accommodation), and taking notes by hand in math class (copy of class notes accommodation). In fact, it’s a principal of “universal design” that class materials and assessments should be accessible to all students, diagnosed and undiagnosed, so what’s really wrong with the system is not that a student gets extra time, but that we are administering tests that are time pressured at all and that we have a system that sorts students by processing speed instead of mastery of subject matter. I’ve seen a few school systems move to untimed tests - the 10 Q unit tests that are administered in 1 class period or the MAP tests, which are essentially untimed because kids can come back on multiple days to finish without needing “accommodation”. Some school systems have also moved to provide “copy of class notes” to all math students (which is essentially what a textbook used to be.) Many private schools offer “formula sheets” along with the test.

Your example about baseball is not on point because an accommodation is considered “unreasonable” if it “fundamentally alters the nature of operations” - so in a pro or travel team baseball league, you could probably argue that the accommodation for someone with a serious arm disability is unreasonable. But, what if we’re talking about a kid whose arm was broken at the growth plate as a child and so his right (pitching) arm didn’t grow properly and is smaller and less muscular, and he has to go to gym every day and watch from the sidelines while other kids play baseball when he (or she) would also really like to try. Some accommodation or special instruction is necessary for that kid to participate because the nature and purpose of those operations is different.

TBH your judgments about what is “essential” about math are wrong and discriminatory. And, that discrimination follows people into the workplace where there have long been arguments about whether job requirements are *actually* related to the job. Broad civil rights law and disability law have long been tools to address this kind of discrimination. We used to not let black people into the civil service and fire departments by giving exams that were unrelated to the job being sought. We kept women out of positions in the military that had even small combat exposure. We kept gay people out of the military altogether, and we’ve recently forced trans military personally into retirement. we kept gay people out of civil service on the argument that they were mentally ill or declined to give them security clearances on the argument that they would be subject to “honeypot” traps (while white straight men were regularly security concerns on that front). I work with mentally ill people, and I’ve seen many fired from good jobs when they should have been offered medical leave or workplace accommodations.

All these people discriminated against and kept from making valuable contributions to society because of pre-conceived notions that certain kinds of people can’t do the work or because of some kind of supremacist notions about what would upsetting the “fundamental nature” of an activity. It’s a loss to society, and the reason why disability law, which is one aspect of broader civil rights law, exists. School discrimination is just a pipeline to broader societal discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 is a civil rights law- grades can be one factor but should not be as heavily considered as with an IEP. Have your son write a paragraph about why he needs this accommodation for math and which features of his disability neccesititate it. Prep him and have him be prepared to respond to counter arguments. You can ask to have another 504 meeting where he personally advocates for this to be added. Or you can go above the school and reach out to the district 504 coordinator with your request and possibly file for 504 mediation. Also know that school staff can be retaliatory though, whether you like it or not, so weigh how much waves you want to make. Ask me how I know.

Huh? IDEA is also a civil rights law. That is not relevant point. For 504 you have to show an accommodation is needed due to a disability and the accommodation has to be reasonable. There is a very good argument that extra time for a kid doing advanced math without needing the extra time so far, is unreasonable. But if anyone wants to understand how Stanford has 40% of students with “disabilities,” well ….

A student must show a need for special education instruction to get an IEP-typically low to failing grades provide a strong indicator . For a 504 plan, the student needs accommodations to access the curriculum to level the playing field with their general education peers. A dear colleague letter from the department of education expressed that students with 504 plans who have hidden disabilities such as learning disabilities should be able to access accommodations to fully demonstrate their abilities. If a high IQ kid has a disability, without appropriate accommodations, they may not be able to fully demonstrate their abilities. In theory, they should have 504 protections but schools often refuse to serve these students. Their high IQ masks the extent of their disability.

Thus how we get 40% of Stanford students with accommodations lol.

I don’t think “fully demonstrate abilities” is the standard for this and I don’t think it is reasonable to give kids who are academically advanced without extra time, extra time.

Your opinion is your opinion and not actually what the law says.

A disabled Einstein is still eligible for accommodation if his disability is adversely impacting his education (IEP standard) or if his disability "substantially limits a major life activity" (of which "learning" is mentioned in the statute, which states that the list in statute is "non-exclusive").

How can a student who only rarely uses an accommodation for extra time for only one class, and that class happens to be three grade level aheads show their impairment substantially limits one or more major life activities? And then only needs it check answers? The vast majority of students doing math three grade level aheads would benefit from extra time to check answers or figure out what exactly a word problem is asking.

The big benefit which then borders on being unfair is that you have time to plug the answer back in to verify it is the correct answer to check your work. Or if you don't know how to solve the problem and it is multiple choice you have time to plug all 4 or 5 answer choice back in to see which answer is correct. If that is occurring that is really not the purpose of extra time if no other student has time to do that.

As a tutor, I can say that it’s super common for kids with ADHD, for example, to finish test quickly, but to make a lot of silly errors or forgetting to answer one part of a multi part question. These kids appear to finish quickly but need extra time to go back and recheck their answers. Sometimes they’ve made a mistake that means that they actually have to rework the whole problem again.

You can be many grades ahead in math and still need this extra time to go back and check your work. Other kids don’t need to plug in the answers to make sure they’re right because they don’t make these kinds of careless errors in their work. These kinds of careless errors aren’t connected to an understanding of the material and they aren’t connected to intelligence, they’re simply a function of brain processing speed, working memory limitations, impulsivity all things that are typically an aspect of executive dysfunction and ADHD.

Your questions show your ignorance of what it means to have a learning disability or a special need.

What I find amusing as a tutor is how so many Neurotypical people believe that if only they had as much time they could do much better. As a tutor, I can tell you that that’s really not the case having an extra half an hour doesn’t mean that you can complete math material that’s several grades above level.

Also, the answer to your question about substantial limitation is that it is possible to be substantially limited and still be a performing above grade level. For example, a kid who does well in history, but who has problems with writing. Or a kid who’s able to do math two levels ahead and who understands very well. The concepts being introduced, but who has ADHD and whose handwriting is so messy that when he goes to do the math, he often makes error errors due to things like miscopying, or dropping signs. Those kinds of mistakes are unrelated to the understanding of the math.

But they are related to the performance of math. A kid who can do the same math test in the same time with fewer errors deserves the higher grade. I truly believe that.

A kid with ADHD needs to be taught to go back and check his work in the time given.

Your opinion isn't law. And think about the implication of what you are saying - if your kid can finish a math test in 45 minutes with no errors and a kid with a broken arm needs 60 minutes to finish the same test with no errors, are you really saying that your kid deserves a better grade because he was able to do it faster? A grade is about mastery of the mathematical principles that have been taught, speed is not relevant to that. Attentional errors don't have to do with misunderstanding of math, they have to do with impulse and attention control, which, for an ADHD person, may not be something they can control thru mere effort but rather medication or extra time. If students with disabilities aren't accommodated in testing environments that have conditions that are irrelevant to subject mastery (speed, noise, distraction, no calculator or no computer use) then they cannot get access to higher level learning opportunities and have lower career and earning potential, which is bad for taxpayers and bad for employers, considering that many jobs don't require speed.

You think it's unfair that disabled students get accommodations, but what's unfair is that the system requires students to compete on measures (like speed) that are irrelevant to showing mastery of what's been taught and irrelevant to future performance in many, many jobs. So, in fact, it's neurotypical students who have unfair advantages that they don't want to give up.

The broken arm isn’t a good analogy because the arm is unrelated to what is actually being tested. The better analogy is whether a kid with a broken arm needs to be allowed to pitch in the baseball game.

But, speed is unrelated to demonstrating mastery of math concepts. In fact, and this is *really* going to irritate you…. So is memorization of math facts and computation by pencil (calculator accommodation), memorization of formulas (memory aide accommodation), and taking notes by hand in math class (copy of class notes accommodation). In fact, it’s a principal of “universal design” that class materials and assessments should be accessible to all students, diagnosed and undiagnosed, so what’s really wrong with the system is not that a student gets extra time, but that we are administering tests that are time pressured at all and that we have a system that sorts students by processing speed instead of mastery of subject matter. I’ve seen a few school systems move to untimed tests - the 10 Q unit tests that are administered in 1 class period or the MAP tests, which are essentially untimed because kids can come back on multiple days to finish without needing “accommodation”. Some school systems have also moved to provide “copy of class notes” to all math students (which is essentially what a textbook used to be.) Many private schools offer “formula sheets” along with the test.

Your example about baseball is not on point because an accommodation is considered “unreasonable” if it “fundamentally alters the nature of operations” - so in a pro or travel team baseball league, you could probably argue that the accommodation for someone with a serious arm disability is unreasonable. But, what if we’re talking about a kid whose arm was broken at the growth plate as a child and so his right (pitching) arm didn’t grow properly and is smaller and less muscular, and he has to go to gym every day and watch from the sidelines while other kids play baseball when he (or she) would also really like to try. Some accommodation or special instruction is necessary for that kid to participate because the nature and purpose of those operations is different.

TBH your judgments about what is “essential” about math are wrong and discriminatory. And, that discrimination follows people into the workplace where there have long been arguments about whether job requirements are *actually* related to the job. Broad civil rights law and disability law have long been tools to address this kind of discrimination. We used to not let black people into the civil service and fire departments by giving exams that were unrelated to the job being sought. We kept women out of positions in the military that had even small combat exposure. We kept gay people out of the military altogether, and we’ve recently forced trans military personally into retirement. we kept gay people out of civil service on the argument that they were mentally ill or declined to give them security clearances on the argument that they would be subject to “honeypot” traps (while white straight men were regularly security concerns on that front). I work with mentally ill people, and I’ve seen many fired from good jobs when they should have been offered medical leave or workplace accommodations.

All these people discriminated against and kept from making valuable contributions to society because of pre-conceived notions that certain kinds of people can’t do the work or because of some kind of supremacist notions about what would upsetting the “fundamental nature” of an activity. It’s a loss to society, and the reason why disability law, which is one aspect of broader civil rights law, exists. School discrimination is just a pipeline to broader societal discrimination.

OMG. Do you realize how absolutely delusional and frankly offensive you are to compare grubbing extra test time for kids who happen not to have every subscore on the WISC as high as mommy wants, to civil rights for African Americans? Come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 is a civil rights law- grades can be one factor but should not be as heavily considered as with an IEP. Have your son write a paragraph about why he needs this accommodation for math and which features of his disability neccesititate it. Prep him and have him be prepared to respond to counter arguments. You can ask to have another 504 meeting where he personally advocates for this to be added. Or you can go above the school and reach out to the district 504 coordinator with your request and possibly file for 504 mediation. Also know that school staff can be retaliatory though, whether you like it or not, so weigh how much waves you want to make. Ask me how I know.

Huh? IDEA is also a civil rights law. That is not relevant point. For 504 you have to show an accommodation is needed due to a disability and the accommodation has to be reasonable. There is a very good argument that extra time for a kid doing advanced math without needing the extra time so far, is unreasonable. But if anyone wants to understand how Stanford has 40% of students with “disabilities,” well ….

A student must show a need for special education instruction to get an IEP-typically low to failing grades provide a strong indicator . For a 504 plan, the student needs accommodations to access the curriculum to level the playing field with their general education peers. A dear colleague letter from the department of education expressed that students with 504 plans who have hidden disabilities such as learning disabilities should be able to access accommodations to fully demonstrate their abilities. If a high IQ kid has a disability, without appropriate accommodations, they may not be able to fully demonstrate their abilities. In theory, they should have 504 protections but schools often refuse to serve these students. Their high IQ masks the extent of their disability.

Thus how we get 40% of Stanford students with accommodations lol.

I don’t think “fully demonstrate abilities” is the standard for this and I don’t think it is reasonable to give kids who are academically advanced without extra time, extra time.

Your opinion is your opinion and not actually what the law says.

A disabled Einstein is still eligible for accommodation if his disability is adversely impacting his education (IEP standard) or if his disability "substantially limits a major life activity" (of which "learning" is mentioned in the statute, which states that the list in statute is "non-exclusive").

How can a student who only rarely uses an accommodation for extra time for only one class, and that class happens to be three grade level aheads show their impairment substantially limits one or more major life activities? And then only needs it check answers? The vast majority of students doing math three grade level aheads would benefit from extra time to check answers or figure out what exactly a word problem is asking.

The big benefit which then borders on being unfair is that you have time to plug the answer back in to verify it is the correct answer to check your work. Or if you don't know how to solve the problem and it is multiple choice you have time to plug all 4 or 5 answer choice back in to see which answer is correct. If that is occurring that is really not the purpose of extra time if no other student has time to do that.

As a tutor, I can say that it’s super common for kids with ADHD, for example, to finish test quickly, but to make a lot of silly errors or forgetting to answer one part of a multi part question. These kids appear to finish quickly but need extra time to go back and recheck their answers. Sometimes they’ve made a mistake that means that they actually have to rework the whole problem again.

You can be many grades ahead in math and still need this extra time to go back and check your work. Other kids don’t need to plug in the answers to make sure they’re right because they don’t make these kinds of careless errors in their work. These kinds of careless errors aren’t connected to an understanding of the material and they aren’t connected to intelligence, they’re simply a function of brain processing speed, working memory limitations, impulsivity all things that are typically an aspect of executive dysfunction and ADHD.

Your questions show your ignorance of what it means to have a learning disability or a special need.

What I find amusing as a tutor is how so many Neurotypical people believe that if only they had as much time they could do much better. As a tutor, I can tell you that that’s really not the case having an extra half an hour doesn’t mean that you can complete math material that’s several grades above level.

Also, the answer to your question about substantial limitation is that it is possible to be substantially limited and still be a performing above grade level. For example, a kid who does well in history, but who has problems with writing. Or a kid who’s able to do math two levels ahead and who understands very well. The concepts being introduced, but who has ADHD and whose handwriting is so messy that when he goes to do the math, he often makes error errors due to things like miscopying, or dropping signs. Those kinds of mistakes are unrelated to the understanding of the math.

But they are related to the performance of math. A kid who can do the same math test in the same time with fewer errors deserves the higher grade. I truly believe that.

A kid with ADHD needs to be taught to go back and check his work in the time given.

Your opinion isn't law. And think about the implication of what you are saying - if your kid can finish a math test in 45 minutes with no errors and a kid with a broken arm needs 60 minutes to finish the same test with no errors, are you really saying that your kid deserves a better grade because he was able to do it faster? A grade is about mastery of the mathematical principles that have been taught, speed is not relevant to that. Attentional errors don't have to do with misunderstanding of math, they have to do with impulse and attention control, which, for an ADHD person, may not be something they can control thru mere effort but rather medication or extra time. If students with disabilities aren't accommodated in testing environments that have conditions that are irrelevant to subject mastery (speed, noise, distraction, no calculator or no computer use) then they cannot get access to higher level learning opportunities and have lower career and earning potential, which is bad for taxpayers and bad for employers, considering that many jobs don't require speed.

You think it's unfair that disabled students get accommodations, but what's unfair is that the system requires students to compete on measures (like speed) that are irrelevant to showing mastery of what's been taught and irrelevant to future performance in many, many jobs. So, in fact, it's neurotypical students who have unfair advantages that they don't want to give up.

The broken arm isn’t a good analogy because the arm is unrelated to what is actually being tested. The better analogy is whether a kid with a broken arm needs to be allowed to pitch in the baseball game.

But, speed is unrelated to demonstrating mastery of math concepts. In fact, and this is *really* going to irritate you…. So is memorization of math facts and computation by pencil (calculator accommodation), memorization of formulas (memory aide accommodation), and taking notes by hand in math class (copy of class notes accommodation). In fact, it’s a principal of “universal design” that class materials and assessments should be accessible to all students, diagnosed and undiagnosed, so what’s really wrong with the system is not that a student gets extra time, but that we are administering tests that are time pressured at all and that we have a system that sorts students by processing speed instead of mastery of subject matter. I’ve seen a few school systems move to untimed tests - the 10 Q unit tests that are administered in 1 class period or the MAP tests, which are essentially untimed because kids can come back on multiple days to finish without needing “accommodation”. Some school systems have also moved to provide “copy of class notes” to all math students (which is essentially what a textbook used to be.) Many private schools offer “formula sheets” along with the test.

Your example about baseball is not on point because an accommodation is considered “unreasonable” if it “fundamentally alters the nature of operations” - so in a pro or travel team baseball league, you could probably argue that the accommodation for someone with a serious arm disability is unreasonable. But, what if we’re talking about a kid whose arm was broken at the growth plate as a child and so his right (pitching) arm didn’t grow properly and is smaller and less muscular, and he has to go to gym every day and watch from the sidelines while other kids play baseball when he (or she) would also really like to try. Some accommodation or special instruction is necessary for that kid to participate because the nature and purpose of those operations is different.

TBH your judgments about what is “essential” about math are wrong and discriminatory. And, that discrimination follows people into the workplace where there have long been arguments about whether job requirements are *actually* related to the job. Broad civil rights law and disability law have long been tools to address this kind of discrimination. We used to not let black people into the civil service and fire departments by giving exams that were unrelated to the job being sought. We kept women out of positions in the military that had even small combat exposure. We kept gay people out of the military altogether, and we’ve recently forced trans military personally into retirement. we kept gay people out of civil service on the argument that they were mentally ill or declined to give them security clearances on the argument that they would be subject to “honeypot” traps (while white straight men were regularly security concerns on that front). I work with mentally ill people, and I’ve seen many fired from good jobs when they should have been offered medical leave or workplace accommodations.

All these people discriminated against and kept from making valuable contributions to society because of pre-conceived notions that certain kinds of people can’t do the work or because of some kind of supremacist notions about what would upsetting the “fundamental nature” of an activity. It’s a loss to society, and the reason why disability law, which is one aspect of broader civil rights law, exists. School discrimination is just a pipeline to broader societal discrimination.

OMG. Do you realize how absolutely delusional and frankly offensive you are to compare grubbing extra test time for kids who happen not to have every subscore on the WISC as high as mommy wants, to civil rights for African Americans? Come on.

Do you realize how offensive you are to weigh and judge people's disabilities and discount them and deny them access to learning? The derogatory way you frame it -- "grubbing extra time" "not as high as mommy wants" belies your discriminatory view of people with disabilities. I work with students with learning disabilities and mental illness and your derogatory framing is the extremely common kind of discrimination that kids with mental illness or brain-based disorders face -- that their disability is not real. It's not me that created this legal framework -- it's the federal legislature that determined that disabled people have civil rights too.

[Anonymous]

It's good that some schools are making changes but people will continue to get upset about extra time as long as the SAT, ACT and AP tests are timed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:504 is a civil rights law- grades can be one factor but should not be as heavily considered as with an IEP. Have your son write a paragraph about why he needs this accommodation for math and which features of his disability neccesititate it. Prep him and have him be prepared to respond to counter arguments. You can ask to have another 504 meeting where he personally advocates for this to be added. Or you can go above the school and reach out to the district 504 coordinator with your request and possibly file for 504 mediation. Also know that school staff can be retaliatory though, whether you like it or not, so weigh how much waves you want to make. Ask me how I know.

Huh? IDEA is also a civil rights law. That is not relevant point. For 504 you have to show an accommodation is needed due to a disability and the accommodation has to be reasonable. There is a very good argument that extra time for a kid doing advanced math without needing the extra time so far, is unreasonable. But if anyone wants to understand how Stanford has 40% of students with “disabilities,” well ….

A student must show a need for special education instruction to get an IEP-typically low to failing grades provide a strong indicator . For a 504 plan, the student needs accommodations to access the curriculum to level the playing field with their general education peers. A dear colleague letter from the department of education expressed that students with 504 plans who have hidden disabilities such as learning disabilities should be able to access accommodations to fully demonstrate their abilities. If a high IQ kid has a disability, without appropriate accommodations, they may not be able to fully demonstrate their abilities. In theory, they should have 504 protections but schools often refuse to serve these students. Their high IQ masks the extent of their disability.

Thus how we get 40% of Stanford students with accommodations lol.

I don’t think “fully demonstrate abilities” is the standard for this and I don’t think it is reasonable to give kids who are academically advanced without extra time, extra time.

Your opinion is your opinion and not actually what the law says.

A disabled Einstein is still eligible for accommodation if his disability is adversely impacting his education (IEP standard) or if his disability "substantially limits a major life activity" (of which "learning" is mentioned in the statute, which states that the list in statute is "non-exclusive").

How can a student who only rarely uses an accommodation for extra time for only one class, and that class happens to be three grade level aheads show their impairment substantially limits one or more major life activities? And then only needs it check answers? The vast majority of students doing math three grade level aheads would benefit from extra time to check answers or figure out what exactly a word problem is asking.

The big benefit which then borders on being unfair is that you have time to plug the answer back in to verify it is the correct answer to check your work. Or if you don't know how to solve the problem and it is multiple choice you have time to plug all 4 or 5 answer choice back in to see which answer is correct. If that is occurring that is really not the purpose of extra time if no other student has time to do that.

As a tutor, I can say that it’s super common for kids with ADHD, for example, to finish test quickly, but to make a lot of silly errors or forgetting to answer one part of a multi part question. These kids appear to finish quickly but need extra time to go back and recheck their answers. Sometimes they’ve made a mistake that means that they actually have to rework the whole problem again.

You can be many grades ahead in math and still need this extra time to go back and check your work. Other kids don’t need to plug in the answers to make sure they’re right because they don’t make these kinds of careless errors in their work. These kinds of careless errors aren’t connected to an understanding of the material and they aren’t connected to intelligence, they’re simply a function of brain processing speed, working memory limitations, impulsivity all things that are typically an aspect of executive dysfunction and ADHD.

Your questions show your ignorance of what it means to have a learning disability or a special need.

What I find amusing as a tutor is how so many Neurotypical people believe that if only they had as much time they could do much better. As a tutor, I can tell you that that’s really not the case having an extra half an hour doesn’t mean that you can complete math material that’s several grades above level.

Also, the answer to your question about substantial limitation is that it is possible to be substantially limited and still be a performing above grade level. For example, a kid who does well in history, but who has problems with writing. Or a kid who’s able to do math two levels ahead and who understands very well. The concepts being introduced, but who has ADHD and whose handwriting is so messy that when he goes to do the math, he often makes error errors due to things like miscopying, or dropping signs. Those kinds of mistakes are unrelated to the understanding of the math.

But they are related to the performance of math. A kid who can do the same math test in the same time with fewer errors deserves the higher grade. I truly believe that.

A kid with ADHD needs to be taught to go back and check his work in the time given.

Your opinion isn't law. And think about the implication of what you are saying - if your kid can finish a math test in 45 minutes with no errors and a kid with a broken arm needs 60 minutes to finish the same test with no errors, are you really saying that your kid deserves a better grade because he was able to do it faster? A grade is about mastery of the mathematical principles that have been taught, speed is not relevant to that. Attentional errors don't have to do with misunderstanding of math, they have to do with impulse and attention control, which, for an ADHD person, may not be something they can control thru mere effort but rather medication or extra time. If students with disabilities aren't accommodated in testing environments that have conditions that are irrelevant to subject mastery (speed, noise, distraction, no calculator or no computer use) then they cannot get access to higher level learning opportunities and have lower career and earning potential, which is bad for taxpayers and bad for employers, considering that many jobs don't require speed.

You think it's unfair that disabled students get accommodations, but what's unfair is that the system requires students to compete on measures (like speed) that are irrelevant to showing mastery of what's been taught and irrelevant to future performance in many, many jobs. So, in fact, it's neurotypical students who have unfair advantages that they don't want to give up.

The broken arm isn’t a good analogy because the arm is unrelated to what is actually being tested. The better analogy is whether a kid with a broken arm needs to be allowed to pitch in the baseball game.

But, speed is unrelated to demonstrating mastery of math concepts. In fact, and this is *really* going to irritate you…. So is memorization of math facts and computation by pencil (calculator accommodation), memorization of formulas (memory aide accommodation), and taking notes by hand in math class (copy of class notes accommodation). In fact, it’s a principal of “universal design” that class materials and assessments should be accessible to all students, diagnosed and undiagnosed, so what’s really wrong with the system is not that a student gets extra time, but that we are administering tests that are time pressured at all and that we have a system that sorts students by processing speed instead of mastery of subject matter. I’ve seen a few school systems move to untimed tests - the 10 Q unit tests that are administered in 1 class period or the MAP tests, which are essentially untimed because kids can come back on multiple days to finish without needing “accommodation”. Some school systems have also moved to provide “copy of class notes” to all math students (which is essentially what a textbook used to be.) Many private schools offer “formula sheets” along with the test.

Your example about baseball is not on point because an accommodation is considered “unreasonable” if it “fundamentally alters the nature of operations” - so in a pro or travel team baseball league, you could probably argue that the accommodation for someone with a serious arm disability is unreasonable. But, what if we’re talking about a kid whose arm was broken at the growth plate as a child and so his right (pitching) arm didn’t grow properly and is smaller and less muscular, and he has to go to gym every day and watch from the sidelines while other kids play baseball when he (or she) would also really like to try. Some accommodation or special instruction is necessary for that kid to participate because the nature and purpose of those operations is different.

TBH your judgments about what is “essential” about math are wrong and discriminatory. And, that discrimination follows people into the workplace where there have long been arguments about whether job requirements are *actually* related to the job. Broad civil rights law and disability law have long been tools to address this kind of discrimination. We used to not let black people into the civil service and fire departments by giving exams that were unrelated to the job being sought. We kept women out of positions in the military that had even small combat exposure. We kept gay people out of the military altogether, and we’ve recently forced trans military personally into retirement. we kept gay people out of civil service on the argument that they were mentally ill or declined to give them security clearances on the argument that they would be subject to “honeypot” traps (while white straight men were regularly security concerns on that front). I work with mentally ill people, and I’ve seen many fired from good jobs when they should have been offered medical leave or workplace accommodations.

All these people discriminated against and kept from making valuable contributions to society because of pre-conceived notions that certain kinds of people can’t do the work or because of some kind of supremacist notions about what would upsetting the “fundamental nature” of an activity. It’s a loss to society, and the reason why disability law, which is one aspect of broader civil rights law, exists. School discrimination is just a pipeline to broader societal discrimination.

OMG. Do you realize how absolutely delusional and frankly offensive you are to compare grubbing extra test time for kids who happen not to have every subscore on the WISC as high as mommy wants, to civil rights for African Americans? Come on.

Do you realize how offensive you are to weigh and judge people's disabilities and discount them and deny them access to learning? The derogatory way you frame it -- "grubbing extra time" "not as high as mommy wants" belies your discriminatory view of people with disabilities. I work with students with learning disabilities and mental illness and your derogatory framing is the extremely common kind of discrimination that kids with mental illness or brain-based disorders face -- that their disability is not real. It's not me that created this legal framework -- it's the federal legislature that determined that disabled people have civil rights too.

1) this doesn’t fit within the legal framework which is why the school is pushing back
2) I have a kid with a mile-long IEP so I’m pretty invested in this issue.