NoVa teacher with offers to teach abroad in Asia, Middle East, and Europe. WWYD?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would never consider totalitarian countries like China or direct-rule kingdoms like Dubai.

I would consider many other countries such as Spain, England, Ireland, Singapore, Japan, or Taiwan.

Foreigners usually hold a very high status in totalitarian countries while making a pretty penny.

Are your thoughts stemming from a moral high ground or other factors you have not conveyed?

Yeah, get off your high horse re living in totalitarian countries. Just because their citizens sometimes flee on rafts made from pallets & inner tubes, it doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy a lavish carefree lifestyle.😁

[Anonymous]

It sounds like a terrific opportunity, OP. We were a foreign service family and LOVED LOVED LOVED living overseas. I suggest living in a place that is fairly affordable (like Africa) because you can always travel to the places that are not (like Europe).

[Anonymous]

Teachers are actually respected more overseas. No nagging parents or disrespectful kids. I say go for it

[Anonymous]

OP, as a longtime international teacher, I urge you to go to International Schools Review and get a subscription. There are a LOT of bad international schools out there, and this site has detailed anonymous reviews by teachers. ISR is kind of a thing that everyone on the international school circuit knows about.

Here's the deal: the "golden era" of international teaching, when you could make serious money and save a lot, is largely over. Packages in most countries have stagnated as cost of living has risen over the last decade (especially true in Dubai). In addition, over the past decade or so, a lot of "chain" international schools, run for profit like businesses (think similar conditions to charter schools in US, but run top-down by CEO bros) and have the lowest possible package/health care package possible and terrible work conditions, and a growing trend in which established international schools are being bought up by private equity groups/businesses and run brutally for profit in a way that means lots of shortcuts and choices that work against quality education standards and what is best for kids/teachers.

It is hard to get into a "tier one" not for profit school. But this is what you need to aim for.

China: lots of existing tier 2-3 and lower schools that are OK but in places you might not love, and lots of bilingual schools for national students that vary in quality/work conditions. Do your homework. Many of the better international schools in China have been struggling due to plummeting birth rates and a government that, more and more, is prioritizing Chinese education for Chinese kids and de-emphasizing the headlong embracement of all things Western that we saw in decades past. China used to be an easy place to get a high paying teaching job, but that is changing.

Dubai: all but four of the many, many international schools here are for-profit. As noted, packages have stagnated as cost of living skyrocketed. Work conditions in those chain schools (like GEMS, etc) are brutal and unpleasant, and you will not save as in years past. OK for singles who just want the "Dubai experience" for a few years, or if you can get into one of the four not for profit schools (very hard if your husband has no IB experience, or in the case of a few of them, British curriculum experience, and no international school experience).

Spain: no international school there will offer you the chance to save. Cost of living is super high. We call international school jobs in Spain "lifestyle posts", where teachers near the end of their career who have saved a lot will go there with savings and willingness to "pay to live there" to enjoy the lifestyle, or newbies at the start of their career who don't care about savings. Same for Italy, unfortunately.

Ireland: your husband will not get a teaching job there. I am 100% sure of this. It is competitive and difficult for actual Irish teachers to get jobs there, which is why so many young Irish teachers are working in international schools in other countries.

England: I worked in an international school there for a few years. Very expensive, very poor savings, and only one international school in London pays reasonably well to justify moving/living there, and possibly the one in Aberdeen. There are multiple other for-profit international schools where you will save almost nothing and work conditions are poor.

So, my advice is: do your homework and try to get in a tier 2-3 China school to get IB experience and international years on the CV, then use it to move up to a better post. Or, consider a "hardship post" in a less desirable location, where you can still find schools that pay decently. Or, choose a country with good work conditions, worker protection/strong union, and compromise on saving and quality of life in a place where you might put down roots and actually qualify for permanent residency eventually: Germany is this, but taxes are so high you won't save much.

Again, the international school world has changed drastically and for the worst over the last decade, and you really, really need to do your homework. The gold standard for recruiting is Search Associates, which represents some of the best international schools that only use Search (but also lots of bad schools).

So, yeah, you do sound a little "crazy" now, or at least poorly informed. But lots of international teachers start out that way. The only thing is, most do this as young singles, and their mistakes aren't going to affect a family in the way that your husband's choice can do now. Please, please do your homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, as a longtime international teacher, I urge you to go to International Schools Review and get a subscription. There are a LOT of bad international schools out there, and this site has detailed anonymous reviews by teachers. ISR is kind of a thing that everyone on the international school circuit knows about.

Here's the deal: the "golden era" of international teaching, when you could make serious money and save a lot, is largely over. Packages in most countries have stagnated as cost of living has risen over the last decade (especially true in Dubai). In addition, over the past decade or so, a lot of "chain" international schools, run for profit like businesses (think similar conditions to charter schools in US, but run top-down by CEO bros) and have the lowest possible package/health care package possible and terrible work conditions, and a growing trend in which established international schools are being bought up by private equity groups/businesses and run brutally for profit in a way that means lots of shortcuts and choices that work against quality education standards and what is best for kids/teachers.

It is hard to get into a "tier one" not for profit school. But this is what you need to aim for.

China: lots of existing tier 2-3 and lower schools that are OK but in places you might not love, and lots of bilingual schools for national students that vary in quality/work conditions. Do your homework. Many of the better international schools in China have been struggling due to plummeting birth rates and a government that, more and more, is prioritizing Chinese education for Chinese kids and de-emphasizing the headlong embracement of all things Western that we saw in decades past. China used to be an easy place to get a high paying teaching job, but that is changing.

Dubai: all but four of the many, many international schools here are for-profit. As noted, packages have stagnated as cost of living skyrocketed. Work conditions in those chain schools (like GEMS, etc) are brutal and unpleasant, and you will not save as in years past. OK for singles who just want the "Dubai experience" for a few years, or if you can get into one of the four not for profit schools (very hard if your husband has no IB experience, or in the case of a few of them, British curriculum experience, and no international school experience).

Spain: no international school there will offer you the chance to save. Cost of living is super high. We call international school jobs in Spain "lifestyle posts", where teachers near the end of their career who have saved a lot will go there with savings and willingness to "pay to live there" to enjoy the lifestyle, or newbies at the start of their career who don't care about savings. Same for Italy, unfortunately.

Ireland: your husband will not get a teaching job there. I am 100% sure of this. It is competitive and difficult for actual Irish teachers to get jobs there, which is why so many young Irish teachers are working in international schools in other countries.

England: I worked in an international school there for a few years. Very expensive, very poor savings, and only one international school in London pays reasonably well to justify moving/living there, and possibly the one in Aberdeen. There are multiple other for-profit international schools where you will save almost nothing and work conditions are poor.

So, my advice is: do your homework and try to get in a tier 2-3 China school to get IB experience and international years on the CV, then use it to move up to a better post. Or, consider a "hardship post" in a less desirable location, where you can still find schools that pay decently. Or, choose a country with good work conditions, worker protection/strong union, and compromise on saving and quality of life in a place where you might put down roots and actually qualify for permanent residency eventually: Germany is this, but taxes are so high you won't save much.

Again, the international school world has changed drastically and for the worst over the last decade, and you really, really need to do your homework. The gold standard for recruiting is Search Associates, which represents some of the best international schools that only use Search (but also lots of bad schools).

So, yeah, you do sound a little "crazy" now, or at least poorly informed. But lots of international teachers start out that way. The only thing is, most do this as young singles, and their mistakes aren't going to affect a family in the way that your husband's choice can do now. Please, please do your homework.

+1,0000

It was very kind of you to take the time to share these detailed insights!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are actually respected more overseas. No nagging parents or disrespectful kids. I say go for it

I've been teaching overseas for 20 years. Unfortunately, this is not true everywhere. For example, I can tell you from direct experience that the wealthy elite of the Middle East generally do NOT especially respect teachers, and their standards for acceptable behavior when addressing the poors (servants, who are basically slaves, and school teachers, who are a step or two above the South Asian house servants in the ME, is...like something you have never seen in the US). Consider too that the wealthy elite class in many developing countries got that way by methods/standards that are corrupt in ways you have never seen in the US, those families form a small society/community in which they all know each other and socialize only with each other, and they tend to view the teachers at the international schools as just a higher form of servant, someone they are paying to give their kids high grades. I have never seen "grade inflation" like what I saw in "international schools" (now full of mainly wealthy local kids) in the Middle East and Brazil anywhere else (ie, school admin would regular change all grades of kids who were failing to As/Bs, and parents paid for transcripts to be altered and for "agents" to falsify pretty much everything for college admissions: and top US universities, including Ivies, routinely accept them).

Yes, Japanese/Korean kids are, in general, well-behaved and respectful, as are their parents, though. I would not go back to Japan to teach, however, because the international school salaries/packages are very low there these days. The most desirable locations with the best behaved local population kids have generally stopped offering teachers the kinds of packages that allow much savings these days, as there are a lot of teachers flooding the market as they try to escape the hideous teaching conditions in the West.

[Anonymous]

The DoDEA jobs are Federal civil service jobs, so salaries are not super high, but they do have good benefits. Retirement is a combination of TSP (like a 401k with a good match) and a small pension component.

While working -overseas- for DoDEA, one has access to military on-base health care, commissary (grocery), and the Base Exchange (everything else).

[Anonymous]

I would post your questions on the Reddit international teachers forum. Understand that “international school” can be a bit of a scam in some countries. Many are not well run. It’s very important to do research and ideally speak with staff who work there off the record.

I enjoyed teaching English overseas in Japan in middle schools with the JET program and met many international teachers while traveling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DoDEA jobs are Federal civil service jobs, so salaries are not super high, but they do have good benefits. Retirement is a combination of TSP (like a 401k with a good match) and a small pension component.

While working -overseas- for DoDEA, one has access to military on-base health care, commissary (grocery), and the Base Exchange (everything else).

I taught for DODEA for a few years, and the pay is actually quite nice, especially if you are a stateside hire (I was a local hire). I made about $10K more than I did in the DMV, and if I would have been a stateside hire and qualified for a housing allowance, it would have been an additional $30k or so. Housing allowance will vary by location, however. I wish I could have stayed longer!

If he is a certified teacher, I would encourage him to look into DODEA. The hiring is competitive, and in my experience, being certified for multiple subjects is extremely helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are actually respected more overseas. No nagging parents or disrespectful kids. I say go for it

I've been teaching overseas for 20 years. Unfortunately, this is not true everywhere. For example, I can tell you from direct experience that the wealthy elite of the Middle East generally do NOT especially respect teachers, and their standards for acceptable behavior when addressing the poors (servants, who are basically slaves, and school teachers, who are a step or two above the South Asian house servants in the ME, is...like something you have never seen in the US). Consider too that the wealthy elite class in many developing countries got that way by methods/standards that are corrupt in ways you have never seen in the US, those families form a small society/community in which they all know each other and socialize only with each other, and they tend to view the teachers at the international schools as just a higher form of servant, someone they are paying to give their kids high grades. I have never seen "grade inflation" like what I saw in "international schools" (now full of mainly wealthy local kids) in the Middle East and Brazil anywhere else (ie, school admin would regular change all grades of kids who were failing to As/Bs, and parents paid for transcripts to be altered and for "agents" to falsify pretty much everything for college admissions: and top US universities, including Ivies, routinely accept them).

Yes, Japanese/Korean kids are, in general, well-behaved and respectful, as are their parents, though. I would not go back to Japan to teach, however, because the international school salaries/packages are very low there these days. The most desirable locations with the best behaved local population kids have generally stopped offering teachers the kinds of packages that allow much savings these days, as there are a lot of teachers flooding the market as they try to escape the hideous teaching conditions in the West.

And I believe this trend has greatly intensified over the 10+ yrs, while admission rates for US seniors have dropped, in some places dramatically over that same time. And while international students used to be full pay, they are now routinely getting financial sponsorship either in the form of full rides from their governments, directly from universities, or competing for many of the same scholarships with U.S seniors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are actually respected more overseas. No nagging parents or disrespectful kids. I say go for it

I've been teaching overseas for 20 years. Unfortunately, this is not true everywhere. For example, I can tell you from direct experience that the wealthy elite of the Middle East generally do NOT especially respect teachers, and their standards for acceptable behavior when addressing the poors (servants, who are basically slaves, and school teachers, who are a step or two above the South Asian house servants in the ME, is...like something you have never seen in the US). Consider too that the wealthy elite class in many developing countries got that way by methods/standards that are corrupt in ways you have never seen in the US, those families form a small society/community in which they all know each other and socialize only with each other, and they tend to view the teachers at the international schools as just a higher form of servant, someone they are paying to give their kids high grades. I have never seen "grade inflation" like what I saw in "international schools" (now full of mainly wealthy local kids) in the Middle East and Brazil anywhere else (ie, school admin would regular change all grades of kids who were failing to As/Bs, and parents paid for transcripts to be altered and for "agents" to falsify pretty much everything for college admissions: and top US universities, including Ivies, routinely accept them).

Yes, Japanese/Korean kids are, in general, well-behaved and respectful, as are their parents, though. I would not go back to Japan to teach, however, because the international school salaries/packages are very low there these days. The most desirable locations with the best behaved local population kids have generally stopped offering teachers the kinds of packages that allow much savings these days, as there are a lot of teachers flooding the market as they try to escape the hideous teaching conditions in the West.

This is fascinating to me as I have taught foreign educated students in higher education in the US and the middle eastern students absolutely were the most disrespectful to me. I never thought of it as they were treating me as the help, but now that your described it, that's exactly it. The Korean, Chinese, and Japanese were the most respectful. I found South Americans delightful to teach as well because they tended to participate a lot in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DoDEA jobs are Federal civil service jobs, so salaries are not super high, but they do have good benefits. Retirement is a combination of TSP (like a 401k with a good match) and a small pension component.

While working -overseas- for DoDEA, one has access to military on-base health care, commissary (grocery), and the Base Exchange (everything else).

how hard is it to get those teaching jobs? what sort of experience/credentials do you need? are they coveted?

[Anonymous]

China - absolutely not under no circumstances
Dubai - I would and have had friends there
Spain - really terrible healthcare
Ireland - extremely conservative society but I might
England - I would and have had friends there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s certainly worth considering, OP. I’m guessing the packages are best in places like China and UAE. I will say that as an Arabic speaker, it’s a very hard language to learn, especially in a place as diverse as UAE where most of the population is an expat. Locals tend to keep to themselves. Most operate in their own bubbles. Western expats tend to congregate. Very few expats leave Dubai having learned any Arabic beyond shukran. A friend currently residing in Dubai with her husband is strongly considering leaving the country because she feels the education (even in private schools) is not rigorous enough.

I have a friend (single mom) who is raising her daughter in China at a very highly regarded private school. They love it and have been there for a decade now. Both speak Mandarin pretty well.

I’m not sure of the income threshold for a family but I think you are exempt from taxes on the first 100-120K you earn outside the US. I’m guessing you won’t exceed that on a teaching salary. You will still need to file a US tax return. If you do own, be aware specialized accountants are required and those are expensive.

European countries have extraordinarily high taxes in comparison to the US. I doubt you would be exempt from local taxes and would likely pay more than you do in the US.

It could be a great experience for your family. I do agree with others that you likely won’t save much money because you will quite obviously want to experience lots of adventures while abroad. But then again, there are state departments families who crack the code and save a boatload while overseas. Perhaps learn about those families and their methods.

Finally be aware that being outside the US will make it financially hard to return. We moved to Europe six years ago and life in the US is insanely expensive when we come back to visit. We still own a house that we rent but it would be really hard to re-enter the US housing market with the way prices have increased if we didn’t already own. Plus we’ve taken a pretty sizable pay cut to leave.

Please keep us informed. I hope it will work for you too. In the six years I’ve been gone, I’ve probably one had regret less than a handful of times. It’s hard but worth it.

Surely there has to be at least one academically rigorous private school in Dubai? Which private schools did they look at and how were they lacking?

Also, how did you rent out the house while living abroad - did you use a property management company or just directly manage everything remotely?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are actually respected more overseas. No nagging parents or disrespectful kids. I say go for it

I've been teaching overseas for 20 years. Unfortunately, this is not true everywhere. For example, I can tell you from direct experience that the wealthy elite of the Middle East generally do NOT especially respect teachers, and their standards for acceptable behavior when addressing the poors (servants, who are basically slaves, and school teachers, who are a step or two above the South Asian house servants in the ME, is...like something you have never seen in the US). Consider too that the wealthy elite class in many developing countries got that way by methods/standards that are corrupt in ways you have never seen in the US, those families form a small society/community in which they all know each other and socialize only with each other, and they tend to view the teachers at the international schools as just a higher form of servant, someone they are paying to give their kids high grades. I have never seen "grade inflation" like what I saw in "international schools" (now full of mainly wealthy local kids) in the Middle East and Brazil anywhere else (ie, school admin would regular change all grades of kids who were failing to As/Bs, and parents paid for transcripts to be altered and for "agents" to falsify pretty much everything for college admissions: and top US universities, including Ivies, routinely accept them).

Yes, Japanese/Korean kids are, in general, well-behaved and respectful, as are their parents, though. I would not go back to Japan to teach, however, because the international school salaries/packages are very low there these days. The most desirable locations with the best behaved local population kids have generally stopped offering teachers the kinds of packages that allow much savings these days, as there are a lot of teachers flooding the market as they try to escape the hideous teaching conditions in the West.

This is fascinating to me as I have taught foreign educated students in higher education in the US and the middle eastern students absolutely were the most disrespectful to me. I never thought of it as they were treating me as the help, but now that your described it, that's exactly it. The Korean, Chinese, and Japanese were the most respectful. I found South Americans delightful to teach as well because they tended to participate a lot in class.

Does anyone have any other information on this psyche? As an American outsider, it's completely impossible to be "inside" this mindset that you're better because of your birth/family/money, somewhow.