Law school- Yale vs UC Berkeley

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are the PPs lawyers?

No practicing lawyer would recommend turning down Yale for UC Berkeley.

OMG. Plenty of practicing lawyers would suggest this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

[Anonymous]

I turned down full rides from Columbia and Michigan in favor of YLS. I got some financial aid but the loan burden was still huge.

I agree with the PPs who say that the YLS brand helps immensely. People will assume you’re smart and capable without proof, but of course your work thereafter will either confirm or refute that assumption, so the benefit is fleeting.

I lived frugally while in BigLaw and paid off the debt within 4 years. I don’t regret my choice, but the opportunity cost of not having invested that money is sobering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

It's the name recognition factor outside of California/West Coast. Everyone sits at attention when they see Yale. When they see Berkeley, they probably know it's a good school, but they don't sit up straight and go "oh!" like they do for Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. Not saying you definitely get hired, but your resume stands out a lot more.

Again, if you're sure to practice in CA, totally worth it to go to Berkeley and get the $$. Similarly, I clerked on the EDPA and half the clerks were Temple Law grads. Temple is not widely known outside the Philly area, but in Philly, it is very respected and has a placement network like no other. If you knew you were going to stay in Philly, it might be worth it to get a full ride at Temple and skip the Ivies. It's not determinative - just a consideration.

Personally, I turned down full rides at Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown to go to YLS. Yes, it sucked having to work in Biglaw - which I loathed - to pay them off. But I know for sure it has opened doors. As PP says, once the doors are open, you still have to prove yourself, of course. And the judge I clerked for told me he almost didn't interview me because he assumed a Yale grad wasn't serious about clerking on a district court outside of DDC. So there can be negatives too. But overall as far as I know, it's been nearly all positive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

It's the name recognition factor outside of California/West Coast. Everyone sits at attention when they see Yale. When they see Berkeley, they probably know it's a good school, but they don't sit up straight and go "oh!" like they do for Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. Not saying you definitely get hired, but your resume stands out a lot more.

Again, if you're sure to practice in CA, totally worth it to go to Berkeley and get the $$. Similarly, I clerked on the EDPA and half the clerks were Temple Law grads. Temple is not widely known outside the Philly area, but in Philly, it is very respected and has a placement network like no other. If you knew you were going to stay in Philly, it might be worth it to get a full ride at Temple and skip the Ivies. It's not determinative - just a consideration.

Personally, I turned down full rides at Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown to go to YLS. Yes, it sucked having to work in Biglaw - which I loathed - to pay them off. But I know for sure it has opened doors. As PP says, once the doors are open, you still have to prove yourself, of course. And the judge I clerked for told me he almost didn't interview me because he assumed a Yale grad wasn't serious about clerking on a district court outside of DDC. So there can be negatives too. But overall as far as I know, it's been nearly all positive.

Let's be real. You didnt HAVE to work in Biglaw to pay your loans off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

It's the name recognition factor outside of California/West Coast. Everyone sits at attention when they see Yale. When they see Berkeley, they probably know it's a good school, but they don't sit up straight and go "oh!" like they do for Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. Not saying you definitely get hired, but your resume stands out a lot more.

Again, if you're sure to practice in CA, totally worth it to go to Berkeley and get the $$. Similarly, I clerked on the EDPA and half the clerks were Temple Law grads. Temple is not widely known outside the Philly area, but in Philly, it is very respected and has a placement network like no other. If you knew you were going to stay in Philly, it might be worth it to get a full ride at Temple and skip the Ivies. It's not determinative - just a consideration.

Personally, I turned down full rides at Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown to go to YLS. Yes, it sucked having to work in Biglaw - which I loathed - to pay them off. But I know for sure it has opened doors. As PP says, once the doors are open, you still have to prove yourself, of course. And the judge I clerked for told me he almost didn't interview me because he assumed a Yale grad wasn't serious about clerking on a district court outside of DDC. So there can be negatives too. But overall as far as I know, it's been nearly all positive.

Let's be real. You didnt HAVE to work in Biglaw to pay your loans off.

I suppose not. Only if I didn’t want to be paying them off still at age 45 like my colleagues. I had about 20k in college debt to pay off too. Left for government 3 weeks after my final loan payment. Now that I have a mortgage and kids in after care, with one needing orthodontia, I really appreciate not having student loans. My colleagues all still do.

[Anonymous]

I am a lawyer for a private equity firm and went to a fancy school. I would pick Berkeley. I do think my first thought of Yale lawyers is "smart but impractical." Specific to that school, I wouldn't say the same for any of the other top schools, even Harvard or Stanford. A lot depends on the school but I think it is a style of teaching there.

Now without the scholarship I would choose Yale but debt sucks and no debt = freedom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would choose Berkeley. There is a growing stigma against ivy law schools, especially Yale and Harvard - these days, they are viewed as elitist and out of touch with day-to-day practice. I have worked with a couple of Yale attorneys and understand why - super smart and super cerebral and academic, but not “street smart” or creative/saavy or willing to hustle. One in particular was kind of a laughing stock at the firm bc he was pretentious as hell. If you’re interested in being a law professor or going into politics or want that sort of ivory tower association, then go for it. But I think law schools like Berkeley, Georgetown, Columbia, Stanford produce better practicing attorneys. Some of the best attorneys I’ve worked with - the creative scrappy hustlers- went to second tier law schools.

OMG Berkeley is *not* exempt from those critiques. Berkeley is pretty synonymous with out of touch liberal nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the PPs lawyers?

No practicing lawyer would recommend turning down Yale for UC Berkeley.

OMG. Plenty of practicing lawyers would suggest this.

practicing lawyer here, former biglaw partner (at a boutique midlaw firm now). i would absolutely recommend UCB with a near-free ride vs yale full cost. i'd go a step further and call you stupid for not following my advice.

btw, yale grads tend not to do well in biglaw for some reason. must be the whole gay sex and cocaine thing; they often wind up in academia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

It's the name recognition factor outside of California/West Coast. Everyone sits at attention when they see Yale. When they see Berkeley, they probably know it's a good school, but they don't sit up straight and go "oh!" like they do for Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. Not saying you definitely get hired, but your resume stands out a lot more.

Again, if you're sure to practice in CA, totally worth it to go to Berkeley and get the $$. Similarly, I clerked on the EDPA and half the clerks were Temple Law grads. Temple is not widely known outside the Philly area, but in Philly, it is very respected and has a placement network like no other. If you knew you were going to stay in Philly, it might be worth it to get a full ride at Temple and skip the Ivies. It's not determinative - just a consideration.

Personally, I turned down full rides at Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown to go to YLS. Yes, it sucked having to work in Biglaw - which I loathed - to pay them off. But I know for sure it has opened doors. As PP says, once the doors are open, you still have to prove yourself, of course. And the judge I clerked for told me he almost didn't interview me because he assumed a Yale grad wasn't serious about clerking on a district court outside of DDC. So there can be negatives too. But overall as far as I know, it's been nearly all positive.

Let's be real. You didnt HAVE to work in Biglaw to pay your loans off.

how else would one pay off 200k or more in loans if they don't come from money? biglaw is the only realistic option if you ever want to buy a house, start a family, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I turned down full rides from Columbia and Michigan in favor of YLS. I got some financial aid but the loan burden was still huge.

I agree with the PPs who say that the YLS brand helps immensely. People will assume you’re smart and capable without proof, but of course your work thereafter will either confirm or refute that assumption, so the benefit is fleeting.

I lived frugally while in BigLaw and paid off the debt within 4 years. I don’t regret my choice, but the opportunity cost of not having invested that money is sobering.

Gotta disclose the year your graduated, lol
now the debt is closer to $300K+

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the PPs lawyers?

No practicing lawyer would recommend turning down Yale for UC Berkeley.

OMG. Plenty of practicing lawyers would suggest this.

practicing lawyer here, former biglaw partner (at a boutique midlaw firm now). i would absolutely recommend UCB with a near-free ride vs yale full cost. i'd go a step further and call you stupid for not following my advice.

btw, yale grads tend not to do well in biglaw for some reason. must be the whole gay sex and cocaine thing; they often wind up in academia.

Wait what? This poster sounds crazy.

A lot of the posters seem to be missing that OP’s kid wants to do human rights now, not BigLaw or private equity. For human rights law, I’d say definitely YLS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yale opens doors for years. I’m a Fed mid career attorney getting ready to start applying to jobs when they shut my agency down, and grateful to have YLS on the resume even though I kind of hated it when there and suffered through 4 years of Biglaw to pay off the loans.

That said if you plan to stay in CA your whole career, Boalt is quite respected. But it isn’t respected in the same way on the East Coast. (No idea about Midwest.) Whereas YLS is known everywhere. So factor that in too.

I honestly think you are wrong about Yale opening doors mid-career. Yes a T10 law school (and law review) probably counts, but your achievements and connections matter MUCH more. Massive debt even if from Yale can cripple an early career where making those connections and gaining experience is important. But for a person who is going to go to Biglaw anyway - sure choose Yale for the marginal increases benefit. Although personally I would like to be able to quit Biglaw without worrying about debt in any event.

Berkeley law school is rated #13 by usnwr. Are you really saying that a difference of three (to get to t10) is worth the money?

It's the name recognition factor outside of California/West Coast. Everyone sits at attention when they see Yale. When they see Berkeley, they probably know it's a good school, but they don't sit up straight and go "oh!" like they do for Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia. Not saying you definitely get hired, but your resume stands out a lot more.

Again, if you're sure to practice in CA, totally worth it to go to Berkeley and get the $$. Similarly, I clerked on the EDPA and half the clerks were Temple Law grads. Temple is not widely known outside the Philly area, but in Philly, it is very respected and has a placement network like no other. If you knew you were going to stay in Philly, it might be worth it to get a full ride at Temple and skip the Ivies. It's not determinative - just a consideration.

Personally, I turned down full rides at Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown to go to YLS. Yes, it sucked having to work in Biglaw - which I loathed - to pay them off. But I know for sure it has opened doors. As PP says, once the doors are open, you still have to prove yourself, of course. And the judge I clerked for told me he almost didn't interview me because he assumed a Yale grad wasn't serious about clerking on a district court outside of DDC. So there can be negatives too. But overall as far as I know, it's been nearly all positive.

Let's be real. You didnt HAVE to work in Biglaw to pay your loans off.

how else would one pay off 200k or more in loans if they don't come from money? biglaw is the only realistic option if you ever want to buy a house, start a family, etc.

I don’t know about UCB but the Yale loan forgiveness program is pretty generous. When I went to law school the UcB program for loan forgiveness was terrible. At the time Yale had by far the best but I know Harvard charged theirs a few years later to copy the YLS program. OP’s kid should definitely compare the details on the different loan forgiveness programs — all the schools like to say they have one but ask them to give you the actual terms and read the fine print before you decide. When o asked, several of the schools seemed very surprised I was asking to see the actual terms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I turned down full rides from Columbia and Michigan in favor of YLS. I got some financial aid but the loan burden was still huge.

I agree with the PPs who say that the YLS brand helps immensely. People will assume you’re smart and capable without proof, but of course your work thereafter will either confirm or refute that assumption, so the benefit is fleeting.

I lived frugally while in BigLaw and paid off the debt within 4 years. I don’t regret my choice, but the opportunity cost of not having invested that money is sobering.

Gotta disclose the year your graduated, lol
now the debt is closer to $300K+

Wow it's doubled since I graduated (early noughties)

[Anonymous]

Unless you want to be in academia you go to Berkeley. No question. Practicing lawyer here.