S/o: brief factual history of TJ admissions and race (from Wikipedia)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The facts show that the number of TJ students actually enrolled at TJ has NOT decreased.

In fact, if you look at the four years before the admissions change and the four years after, there are, on average, MORE Asian students at TJ today.


TJ enrollment data from FCPS:
https://tinyurl.com/tjenroll

Again, the admission changes weren't about REDUCING the number of Asian students; they were about ADDING others. It wasn't zero sum - they added seats to open up access to kids from across the county. There are just as many Asian students there today as there were before.

TJHSST is a community resource that should provide opportunities to kids from all across the county, not just a handful of feeder schools.

According to FCPS, there is no TJ without relying on an overwhelming number of Asian students, at least 300+ of them. No one is arguing this aspect, and data backs it up.

The primary concern is why Asian applicants were excluded from the 100 seat expanded quota, which makes it a race aware process. Second, more qualified non-Asian students may be left behind as there lacks a merit based selection process and lower level math students are currently enrolled and likely struggling at TJ.

Asian students are not excluded from any seat.

The admissions process is race blind.

All seats are open to students of any race.

The process was not created in a race blind manner. It was created to yield racially driven result.

That is correct. The theory is the process appears “race blind.” However, the desired racial yield is still achieved by using “proxies” for race.

In the case of admitting Black students, and LatinX students (who are not a race but are still within the targeted URM cohort), TJ’s admissions office considers proxies and examines details about a student's socio-economic background including whether they are economically disadvantaged or an English language learner.

TJ has expanded access beyond the wealthy feeder schools. Many kids, of all backgrounds, will benefit.

It’s race blind. And there are just as many Asian kids there today as before.

academically wealthy feeders. When students put in hardwork they turn academically wealthy, even poor students.
FCPS wants academically wealthy feeders for TJ survival.

Ok. There is room for kids from all MSs.

No, there isnt. Students voluntarily returned to base HS school because their MS under-prepared them to handle TJ rigor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiki presents a concise factual history of the demographics of TJ admissions and the related controversies, with attributions to reliable sources.

From the Wikipedia.org page on TJ:

The admissions process and the demographics of the student body it produces, in particular the under-representation of black and Hispanic students relative to the school system overall, have been a source of controversy throughout the school's history.

After the school's early graduating classes included relatively few black and Hispanic students, FCPS created a race-based affirmative action program to admit more black and Hispanic students.[33] The program was in effect for the admissions process for the graduating classes of 1997 through 2002; the county ended it because of legal challenges to similar programs.[33] Following the end of this program, the share of black and Hispanic students at the school decreased from 9.4 percent in 1997–98 to 3.5 percent in 2003–04.[33] Black and Hispanic students remained significantly under-represented at the school through the 2000s and 2010s.[34][35]

In 2012, a civil rights complaint against the school was filed with the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights by Coalition of the Silence, an advocacy group led by former county School Board member Tina Hone, and the Fairfax chapter of the NAACP, alleging that it discriminated against black, Hispanic, and disabled students.[36][37] In response, the Office of Civil Rights, in September 2012, opened an investigation.[38][39]

In 2020, the school board made a number of significant changes to the admissions process meant to increase the ratio of black and Hispanic students admitted. These included the elimination of the application fee; the increase of the number of admitted students from around 480 to 550; the elimination of an entrance exam; the allocation of seats to each middle school equal to 1.5% of their 8th grade student population; and the addition of "experience factors" including whether students are economically disadvantaged, English language learners, or special education students.[40]

Following these changes, the proportion of black and Hispanic students admitted increased from 4.52% to 18.36% while the proportion of Asian Americans decreased from 73.05% to 54.36%.[29] The proportion of female students admitted also increased, from 41.80% to 46.00%,[29] and to 55.45% the next year.[30]

In March 2021, the Coalition for TJ, an advocacy group opposed to the changes and represented by the Pacific Legal Foundation, sued the Fairfax County school board, alleging that the 2020 changes to the admissions process discriminated against Asian Americans.[41] In February 2022, judge Claude M. Hilton of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia ruled in Coalition for TJ v. Fairfax County School Board in the Coalition for TJ's favor and ordered the school to return to the previous admissions process.[42]

The school board appealed the decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and in March 2022 that court issued a stay on the order that allowed the school to continue the new admissions process while the case was pending.[43] The Supreme Court of the United States rejected a request to vacate the stay in April 2022.[44] The case was heard in the court of appeals on September 16, 2022, and decided on May 23, 2023.[45] The Fourth Circuit, by a 2 to 1 vote, reversed the district court and restored the new admission plan.

The Fourth Circuit's decision was appealed to the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court rejected to review the case on February 20, 2024 with Justice Clarence Thomas and Justice Samuel Alito dissenting from the denial.[46] “

Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology

I am well aware some will criticize Wiki as unreliable as many editors have access and could alter a Wiki page. The attributions through endnotes render this criticism meaningless IMO.

Anyway,hope this information from Wiki reduces some of the confusion, mistakes, and misinformation which inevitably pops up in every DCUM topic about admission to TJ.

Broadly speaking, what you’ve posted here is correct and factual. The only quarrel I have is with the assertion - critically, one of the only parts of the history that does NOT carry a citation - that the changes to the admissions process “were meant to increase the ratio” of Black and Hispanic students at TJ.

They were not, and there exists no evidence that the process that was eventually adopted had race as an explicit goal.

There is absolutely evidence to suggest that the goal was to improve access for students from disadvantaged economic backgrounds. The fact that, especially in Northern Virginia, race and socioeconomic status track relatively well is not the fault of FCPS. Improving access to advanced educational opportunities more broadly, and especially beyond just TJ, should help to mitigate that reality and make such efforts needless.

This happened in the wake of George Flloyd and the BLM protests. Race was explicitly a driving factor behind these changes.

"The Board’s Chair, Karen Corbett Sanders, stated that the Board and FCPS “needed to be explicit in how we are going to address the underrepresentation” of Black and Hispanic students at TJ, and Board member Karen Keys-Gamarra insisted at a June meeting that, “in looking at what has happened to George Floyd, we know that our shortcomings are far too great . . . so we must recognize the . . . unacceptable numbers of African Americans that have been accepted to TJ.”"

The intent was clearly there at least in the minds of the people making the changes. But it may still be constitutionally permissible.

While the TJ case doesn't cite SFFA, it may not need to because it does not have explicit racial preferences like Grutter did. SFFA repealed Grutter but it might have left some shred of Fisher 2 intact. In Fisher 2 the state of Texas adopted the 10% plan with the express purpose of admitting a "critical mass" of URM using otherwise facially neutral methods to achieve this critical mass of URM. So yes there was a racial motive to increase some groups (and by necessity reducing others), but doing so is in this way may be permissible... for now.

As long as Fisher 2 is still on the books, institutions may be free to intentionally achieve racial diversity in some ways. What they cannot do is give a preference or disadvantage due to skin color. If TJ turned into a lottery admissions school and became majority white overnight, that would presumably be permissible under this theory.

I personally think that SFFA replaced all prior jurisprudence on racial preferences (including Fisher 2) and that SFFA might allow some avenues for achieving diversity without having a racially discriminatory intent but I can't figure out how you can seek more of some races without that racially discriminatory intent unless we say that some racially discriminatory intent is permissible. But I can't point to the part of the SFFA that overturns the holding in Fisher 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More data:

The number of Asian students enrolled at TJ has not decreased.

If you look at the four years before the admissions change and the four years after, there are on average MORE Asian students at TJ today.



It wasn't about reducing the number of Asian students; it was about adding others. It wasn't zero sum - they added seats to open up access to kids from across the county. There are just as many Asian students there today as there were before.

Your chart shows the Discrimination and race based manipulation. Asian students were excluded from participating in expanded seat quota, while the others count went from 506 to 833.

cite

https://tinyurl.com/tjenroll

Where are you getting your 2017, 2018 and 2019 numbers from?

Same website. I’ve been tracking for years.

So you don't have a citable source?

Once again the number of asians accepted post-change is lower in every year than it was in the year before the change.

Going back doesn't really clarify things. The population of asians is not static. If you go back far enough TJ was majority white. That doesn't mean that they have been discriminating against whites since then.

I’ve been posting these numbers for years. The data was available from that source when I first posted it back then. The data might be available via other reports/websites. You could FOIA it if you want to double check.

So white students lost seats to Asian students? Sounds like how some on here have defined discrimination.

If you can't find a source "trust me" is a big ask considering your side lies about people buying test answers and the motive behind the changes and the performance of the students since the changes.
Your side simply has no credibility.
I'm not saying ours has much more but at least we provide citable sources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The facts show that the number of TJ students actually enrolled at TJ has NOT decreased.

In fact, if you look at the four years before the admissions change and the four years after, there are, on average, MORE Asian students at TJ today.


TJ enrollment data from FCPS:
https://tinyurl.com/tjenroll

Again, the admission changes weren't about REDUCING the number of Asian students; they were about ADDING others. It wasn't zero sum - they added seats to open up access to kids from across the county. There are just as many Asian students there today as there were before.

TJHSST is a community resource that should provide opportunities to kids from all across the county, not just a handful of feeder schools.

According to FCPS, there is no TJ without relying on an overwhelming number of Asian students, at least 300+ of them. No one is arguing this aspect, and data backs it up.

The primary concern is why Asian applicants were excluded from the 100 seat expanded quota, which makes it a race aware process. Second, more qualified non-Asian students may be left behind as there lacks a merit based selection process and lower level math students are currently enrolled and likely struggling at TJ.

Asian students are not excluded from any seat.

The admissions process is race blind.

All seats are open to students of any race.

The process was not created in a race blind manner. It was created to yield racially driven result.

That is correct. The theory is the process appears “race blind.” However, the desired racial yield is still achieved by using “proxies” for race.

In the case of admitting Black students, and LatinX students (who are not a race but are still within the targeted URM cohort), TJ’s admissions office considers proxies and examines details about a student's socio-economic background including whether they are economically disadvantaged or an English language learner.

TJ has expanded access beyond the wealthy feeder schools. Many kids, of all backgrounds, will benefit.

It’s race blind. And there are just as many Asian kids there today as before.

The point of a governor's school isn't to achieve representative student body. It is to collect the most gifted and talented kids in one place where their advanced academic needs can be met.

Thwe race of the student is not important, should not be important but the entire process was engineered with racial goals in mind.

That’s how YOU would define “the point” of TJ.

It was “engineered” to open access to bright STEM-interested kids from across the county, not just feeder schools.

No, that's how the governor's school program defines the point of governor's schools.

The new admissions method was engineered to change the racial balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally think that application to TJ should be mandatory for every student that qualifies in the district. They dint have to accept, but they should all apply.

I'd like to see the racial mix of the students that take the TJ test. I don't think this is simply an Asians are good at STEM argument. I think white people and other races decide not to apply.

We aren't selecting for stem proficiency at the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiki presents a concise factual history of the demographics of TJ admissions and the related controversies, with attributions to reliable sources.

From the Wikipedia.org page on TJ:

The admissions process and the demographics of the student body it produces, in particular the under-representation of black and Hispanic students relative to the school system overall, have been a source of controversy throughout the school's history.

After the school's early graduating classes included relatively few black and Hispanic students, FCPS created a race-based affirmative action program to admit more black and Hispanic students.[33] The program was in effect for the admissions process for the graduating classes of 1997 through 2002; the county ended it because of legal challenges to similar programs.[33] Following the end of this program, the share of black and Hispanic students at the school decreased from 9.4 percent in 1997–98 to 3.5 percent in 2003–04.[33] Black and Hispanic students remained significantly under-represented at the school through the 2000s and 2010s.[34][35]

In 2012, a civil rights complaint against the school was filed with the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights by Coalition of the Silence, an advocacy group led by former county School Board member Tina Hone, and the Fairfax chapter of the NAACP, alleging that it discriminated against black, Hispanic, and disabled students.[36][37] In response, the Office of Civil Rights, in September 2012, opened an investigation.[38][39]

In 2020, the school board made a number of significant changes to the admissions process meant to increase the ratio of black and Hispanic students admitted. These included the elimination of the application fee; the increase of the number of admitted students from around 480 to 550; the elimination of an entrance exam; the allocation of seats to each middle school equal to 1.5% of their 8th grade student population; and the addition of "experience factors" including whether students are economically disadvantaged, English language learners, or special education students.[40]

Following these changes, the proportion of black and Hispanic students admitted increased from 4.52% to 18.36% while the proportion of Asian Americans decreased from 73.05% to 54.36%.[29] The proportion of female students admitted also increased, from 41.80% to 46.00%,[29] and to 55.45% the next year.[30]

In March 2021, the Coalition for TJ, an advocacy group opposed to the changes and represented by the Pacific Legal Foundation, sued the Fairfax County school board, alleging that the 2020 changes to the admissions process discriminated against Asian Americans.[41] In February 2022, judge Claude M. Hilton of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia ruled in Coalition for TJ v. Fairfax County School Board in the Coalition for TJ's favor and ordered the school to return to the previous admissions process.[42]

The school board appealed the decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and in March 2022 that court issued a stay on the order that allowed the school to continue the new admissions process while the case was pending.[43] The Supreme Court of the United States rejected a request to vacate the stay in April 2022.[44] The case was heard in the court of appeals on September 16, 2022, and decided on May 23, 2023.[45] The Fourth Circuit, by a 2 to 1 vote, reversed the district court and restored the new admission plan.

The Fourth Circuit's decision was appealed to the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court rejected to review the case on February 20, 2024 with Justice Clarence Thomas and Justice Samuel Alito dissenting from the denial.[46] “

Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology

I am well aware some will criticize Wiki as unreliable as many editors have access and could alter a Wiki page. The attributions through endnotes render this criticism meaningless IMO.

Anyway,hope this information from Wiki reduces some of the confusion, mistakes, and misinformation which inevitably pops up in every DCUM topic about admission to TJ.

Broadly speaking, what you’ve posted here is correct and factual. The only quarrel I have is with the assertion - critically, one of the only parts of the history that does NOT carry a citation - that the changes to the admissions process “were meant to increase the ratio” of Black and Hispanic students at TJ.

They were not, and there exists no evidence that the process that was eventually adopted had race as an explicit goal.

There is absolutely evidence to suggest that the goal was to improve access for students from disadvantaged economic backgrounds. The fact that, especially in Northern Virginia, race and socioeconomic status track relatively well is not the fault of FCPS. Improving access to advanced educational opportunities more broadly, and especially beyond just TJ, should help to mitigate that reality and make such efforts needless.

Plus kids who don’t go to feeder MSs with tons of extra resources, clubs, etc.

Group who benefited the most: Asian students from economically-disadvantaged families.

The further you move away from merit and toward random selection, the closer you get to a cross section of the applicant pool.

The group that benefitted the most was white kids because that's the largest group of kids in fairfax. They aren't poor but the single largest increase was among white kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The facts show that the number of TJ students actually enrolled at TJ has NOT decreased.

In fact, if you look at the four years before the admissions change and the four years after, there are, on average, MORE Asian students at TJ today.


TJ enrollment data from FCPS:
https://tinyurl.com/tjenroll

Again, the admission changes weren't about REDUCING the number of Asian students; they were about ADDING others. It wasn't zero sum - they added seats to open up access to kids from across the county. There are just as many Asian students there today as there were before.

TJHSST is a community resource that should provide opportunities to kids from all across the county, not just a handful of feeder schools.

According to FCPS, there is no TJ without relying on an overwhelming number of Asian students, at least 300+ of them. No one is arguing this aspect, and data backs it up.

The primary concern is why Asian applicants were excluded from the 100 seat expanded quota, which makes it a race aware process. Second, more qualified non-Asian students may be left behind as there lacks a merit based selection process and lower level math students are currently enrolled and likely struggling at TJ.

Asian students are not excluded from any seat.

The admissions process is race blind.

All seats are open to students of any race.

The process was not created in a race blind manner. It was created to yield racially driven result.

That is correct. The theory is the process appears “race blind.” However, the desired racial yield is still achieved by using “proxies” for race.

In the case of admitting Black students, and LatinX students (who are not a race but are still within the targeted URM cohort), TJ’s admissions office considers proxies and examines details about a student's socio-economic background including whether they are economically disadvantaged or an English language learner.

TJ has expanded access beyond the wealthy feeder schools. Many kids, of all backgrounds, will benefit.

It’s race blind. And there are just as many Asian kids there today as before.

academically wealthy feeders. When students put in hardwork they turn academically wealthy, even poor students.
FCPS wants academically wealthy feeders for TJ survival.

Ok. There is room for kids from all MSs.

Of course. But not all MSs produce the desired number of academically advanced students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, EVERYONE knows they changed the process to end the test buying. This had nothing to do with race. Their process is race blind.

You;'ve been saying this for years and no one believes you. I mean you don't even believe it, how do you expect people that lived through it to believe it.
I've got to think you are a false flag trying to convince everyone that the arguments in favor of this new system relies on transparent lies and inept deception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wiki presents a concise factual history of the demographics of TJ admissions and the related controversies, with attributions to reliable sources.

From the Wikipedia.org page on TJ:

The admissions process and the demographics of the student body it produces, in particular the under-representation of black and Hispanic students relative to the school system overall, have been a source of controversy throughout the school's history.

After the school's early graduating classes included relatively few black and Hispanic students, FCPS created a race-based affirmative action program to admit more black and Hispanic students.[33] The program was in effect for the admissions process for the graduating classes of 1997 through 2002; the county ended it because of legal challenges to similar programs.[33] Following the end of this program, the share of black and Hispanic students at the school decreased from 9.4 percent in 1997–98 to 3.5 percent in 2003–04.[33] Black and Hispanic students remained significantly under-represented at the school through the 2000s and 2010s.[34][35]

In 2012, a civil rights complaint against the school was filed with the U.S. Department of Education Office of Civil Rights by Coalition of the Silence, an advocacy group led by former county School Board member Tina Hone, and the Fairfax chapter of the NAACP, alleging that it discriminated against black, Hispanic, and disabled students.[36][37] In response, the Office of Civil Rights, in September 2012, opened an investigation.[38][39]

In 2020, the school board made a number of significant changes to the admissions process meant to increase the ratio of black and Hispanic students admitted. These included the elimination of the application fee; the increase of the number of admitted students from around 480 to 550; the elimination of an entrance exam; the allocation of seats to each middle school equal to 1.5% of their 8th grade student population; and the addition of "experience factors" including whether students are economically disadvantaged, English language learners, or special education students.[40]

Following these changes, the proportion of black and Hispanic students admitted increased from 4.52% to 18.36% while the proportion of Asian Americans decreased from 73.05% to 54.36%.[29] The proportion of female students admitted also increased, from 41.80% to 46.00%,[29] and to 55.45% the next year.[30]

In March 2021, the Coalition for TJ, an advocacy group opposed to the changes and represented by the Pacific Legal Foundation, sued the Fairfax County school board, alleging that the 2020 changes to the admissions process discriminated against Asian Americans.[41] In February 2022, judge Claude M. Hilton of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia ruled in Coalition for TJ v. Fairfax County School Board in the Coalition for TJ's favor and ordered the school to return to the previous admissions process.[42]

The school board appealed the decision to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and in March 2022 that court issued a stay on the order that allowed the school to continue the new admissions process while the case was pending.[43] The Supreme Court of the United States rejected a request to vacate the stay in April 2022.[44] The case was heard in the court of appeals on September 16, 2022, and decided on May 23, 2023.[45] The Fourth Circuit, by a 2 to 1 vote, reversed the district court and restored the new admission plan.

The Fourth Circuit's decision was appealed to the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court rejected to review the case on February 20, 2024 with Justice Clarence Thomas and Justice Samuel Alito dissenting from the denial.[46] “

Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_High_School_for_Science_and_Technology

I am well aware some will criticize Wiki as unreliable as many editors have access and could alter a Wiki page. The attributions through endnotes render this criticism meaningless IMO.

Anyway,hope this information from Wiki reduces some of the confusion, mistakes, and misinformation which inevitably pops up in every DCUM topic about admission to TJ.

Broadly speaking, what you’ve posted here is correct and factual. The only quarrel I have is with the assertion - critically, one of the only parts of the history that does NOT carry a citation - that the changes to the admissions process “were meant to increase the ratio” of Black and Hispanic students at TJ.

They were not, and there exists no evidence that the process that was eventually adopted had race as an explicit goal.

There is absolutely evidence to suggest that the goal was to improve access for students from disadvantaged economic backgrounds. The fact that, especially in Northern Virginia, race and socioeconomic status track relatively well is not the fault of FCPS. Improving access to advanced educational opportunities more broadly, and especially beyond just TJ, should help to mitigate that reality and make such efforts needless.

Plus kids who don’t go to feeder MSs with tons of extra resources, clubs, etc.

Group who benefited the most: Asian students from economically-disadvantaged families.

No, it was to load the bottom half to achieve diversity instead of merit. Process is race aware to make this happen.

Pro-test here. The process itself is blind to race. All the identifying data is scrubbed and replaced with a number. All they know is where they went to school, the GPA, the highest level of math and what they put on the essays.