AP courses a scam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this happened to me. I placed out of Calc I in college bc of AP credit, and then felt lost in Calc II, III, and Lin Alg/Diff Eq. I presume it's bc I wasn't taught some of the foundation of the Calc I college class.

If I had to go back in time, I would have only used AP credits to get out of classes not related to my major.

This exact situation for me, too.

My kid will take Calc AB or BC in 12th, but even though DC is leaning toward the idea of being a math major in college, will likely retake the college Calc sequence regardless of AP result. We’ve heard a lot of anecdotes about kids struggling when they place out of a course.

That said, I don’t think APs are a scam. As another pp noted, I just see them as the top-level rigor in whatever subject for HS, rather than as a replacement for a college class.

Retaking calc as a math major is a terrible idea - most large universities have proof-based maths courses specifically meant for math majors with prior calculus exposure, e.g. math 340 at UMD, 375 at UWisc, 295 at UMichigan, 2315 at UVA. He would be better off learning proofs than reviewing calculus and much better off reviewing calculus than retaking calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm also curious about this -- my DD's high school requires APs but as far as I can tell, they teach to the test. Like, "you need to have a couple of little anecdotes" to get from a 4 to a 5 on APUSH or something (I'm sure I'm getting the terminology wrong). We used to carpool with a bunch of kids taking AP Spanish and I used to try to chat with them in Spanish. They couldn't formulate a response... ever.

She'll be in a similar situation as your child -- testing out of the prereq, but not getting credit for the class (if I correctly interpreted what you said). She's hoping to get a 5 on Macro/Micro this month so she can take a higher level econ class, but it really won't buy her anything. And we wonder if her current econ class will have prepared her for econ at a higher level -- I'll be kind of surprised if it does.

Intermediate econ is nice in that it doesn't really require introductory econ beyond the very basics. Think of how calc-based physics doesn't require algebra based/conceptual physics.

For example, MIT's introductory microeconomics course is at the level of many intermediate courses despite not having any econ prerequisites

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a college professor. The AP course in my field requires a lot of things that the equivalent college course does not, but those AP "extras" won't actually make you better at what the college course requires, and may in fact dilute the needed elements in favor of the unneeded ones. College courses tend to be much more specific, even compartmentalized, than high-school ones, even APs, are. And students who have done well in AP and feel like they know what to expect in college-level work also are going to sense a difference when college courses go twice as fast and meet almost half as often. There's a lot less time to discuss, digest, process, and practice in a college course than there is in its AP "equivalent."

So is AP a scam? No - it includes high-quality syllabi and strong expectations, and in the hands of great teachers it can produce really outstanding experiences. The actual rigor of an AP course may be higher than its college "equivalent" in certain situations, too. But remember that "equivalent" doesn't mean "identical" or even necessarily "interchangeable."

Short version: I'm not surprised when a former AP student is surprised at college. We should do a better job of preparing our HS upperclassmen, perhaps even just switching courses to college pace for a week to let them feel it out on the ground.

which AP course and which "extras"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this happened to me. I placed out of Calc I in college bc of AP credit, and then felt lost in Calc II, III, and Lin Alg/Diff Eq. I presume it's bc I wasn't taught some of the foundation of the Calc I college class.

If I had to go back in time, I would have only used AP credits to get out of classes not related to my major.

This exact situation for me, too.

My kid will take Calc AB or BC in 12th, but even though DC is leaning toward the idea of being a math major in college, will likely retake the college Calc sequence regardless of AP result. We’ve heard a lot of anecdotes about kids struggling when they place out of a course.

That said, I don’t think APs are a scam. As another pp noted, I just see them as the top-level rigor in whatever subject for HS, rather than as a replacement for a college class.

Retaking calc as a math major is a terrible idea - most large universities have proof-based maths courses specifically meant for math majors with prior calculus exposure, e.g. math 340 at UMD, 375 at UWisc, 295 at UMichigan, 2315 at UVA. He would be better off learning proofs than reviewing calculus and much better off reviewing calculus than retaking calculus.

My kid is neither male nor considering large universities but thanks for your input.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Prof here. For calc and econ, I would pretty much always recommend that a kid repeat the course freshman year. If they took BC Calc as a senior, have them do Calc 2 even if they place out of the prereq. (If they took it as junior and then went on to MV then I'd probably start with doing MV again if the kid feels confident that they remember the BC material.)

Same with Econ. I've had kids not understand very basic concepts and have asked if they had the prereq for my course (micro) and they said they took it AP.

Of course, these are anecdotes. But if the course will be an important prereq or important to the major generally, don't assume that a 5 means they know the material well.

does your school require a 3, 4, or 5 for credit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid used AP credits to cover the majority of her Gen Ed requirements, which is saving us a ton of money. She did choose to retake the class most relevant to her major even though she passed the AP exam. For her, that was a good decision. Overall, I am a huge fan of AP classes. The ones in your area of major will give you a head start when you retake those classes (which are often weed-out courses), and the ones not in your area of major will save you money.

is she graduating a semester early? If not, your not saving money

[Anonymous]

For any class that builds knowledge, you should make very sure you know the material inside and out before using AP to place into a higher class.

I took my credits for English, history, govt, computer science bc I didn’t need further classes in those areas for my major.

I didn’t take my calc credits (restarted at cal 1) because I needed several math classes for my degree and wasn’t confident in my abilities.

I was a chem major and did take my chem 1 and 2 credits because I was very certain I knew the subject inside and out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid used AP credits to cover the majority of her Gen Ed requirements, which is saving us a ton of money. She did choose to retake the class most relevant to her major even though she passed the AP exam. For her, that was a good decision. Overall, I am a huge fan of AP classes. The ones in your area of major will give you a head start when you retake those classes (which are often weed-out courses), and the ones not in your area of major will save you money.

is she graduating a semester early? If not, your not saving money

Even if you can't graduate early, it means you can easily take a minor/double major or get most of your masters done in that extra 1.5 semesters of courses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid used AP credits to cover the majority of her Gen Ed requirements, which is saving us a ton of money. She did choose to retake the class most relevant to her major even though she passed the AP exam. For her, that was a good decision. Overall, I am a huge fan of AP classes. The ones in your area of major will give you a head start when you retake those classes (which are often weed-out courses), and the ones not in your area of major will save you money.

is she graduating a semester early? If not, your not saving money

You're getting more value for your money.

[Anonymous]

Or obtain internships or a job or research that helps obtain a job after college or improve chances for grad school. I like savings too, but not the only measurement, at least as a direct one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this happened to me. I placed out of Calc I in college bc of AP credit, and then felt lost in Calc II, III, and Lin Alg/Diff Eq. I presume it's bc I wasn't taught some of the foundation of the Calc I college class.

If I had to go back in time, I would have only used AP credits to get out of classes not related to my major.

This exact situation for me, too.

My kid will take Calc AB or BC in 12th, but even though DC is leaning toward the idea of being a math major in college, will likely retake the college Calc sequence regardless of AP result. We’ve heard a lot of anecdotes about kids struggling when they place out of a course.

That said, I don’t think APs are a scam. As another pp noted, I just see them as the top-level rigor in whatever subject for HS, rather than as a replacement for a college class.

Retaking calc as a math major is a terrible idea - most large universities have proof-based maths courses specifically meant for math majors with prior calculus exposure, e.g. math 340 at UMD, 375 at UWisc, 295 at UMichigan, 2315 at UVA. He would be better off learning proofs than reviewing calculus and much better off reviewing calculus than retaking calculus.

UMD 340 is honors accelerated Calc 3. (It's part of a 2-semester sequence that replaces a 3 semester non honors sequence 240/241/246).

Math 310 is Intro to Proof

Math 410 is rigorous proof based abstract calculus (real analysis). Both 340/240, 341/242 and 310 are prereq for 410.