AAP application - are kids compared only within the same school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it is also my understanding that whomever is doing the reviewing is looking at all the packets from one school and comparing peers only w/in that school.

Ugh, that sounds awful - I wonder if Fairfax County will turn into Texas where kids send their children to shitty schools just so they get into AAP or TJ. In Texas, people send their kids to shitty high schools so they will be in the top 10% and get into UT.

I feel like this would be a good thing. Spreading out engaged families and raising academic expectations across the board. Maybe we'd then have fewer "shitty" schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

Well you can stop wondering because the answer is no, they won't, and if they were going to they would have started this practice a long time ago because this isn't some recent change to the AAP program... but you probably knew all that.

Actually, this move to local norms is, in fact, recent… as in it started 2 yrs ago. When we went through the AAP process w DC1, who is currently in 6th, there were no local norms/comparisons/variable local in-pool cutoffs. It was all determined district-wide. DC2 went through the AAP process last year under the new local norms comparisons and it was completely different and highly subjective. The school was making up
half the criteria on the fly. My biggest gripe w/ local norms is that in high SES schools it’s now keeping high performing, fully capable students from accessing the advanced math curriculum. That needs to change.

At our mid-SES school they just started encouraging anyone with either a pass advance on the math SOL or more than 90th percentile on the iReady in spring to take advanced math the next year. A whole bunch of very capable kids just joined DC1's 6th grade advanced math class, and now will have the chance at Algebra 1 honors in 7th and all that.

I think that was a great change.

They have not done this at our high SES center school, which is really unfortunate for a lot of students.

They should have separate criteria for advanced math. Isn’t that the only part of AAP that matters after elementary school anyways? DH didn’t get into AAP, but we have Local Level IV and he is in advanced math. What’s frustrating is that he was principal placed in the AAP class in third grade, but not in fourth so he has to switch classes for math. He actually came home quite upset at the beginning of the year asking why he was smart enough to go to the advanced class for math, but not the rest of the day. The frustration is that he is smart enough for the rest of the day. He gets mostly 100s on his math tests and other tests and is a voracious reader. I can’t explain why he didn’t get into AAP other than that he didn’t fill out some worksheet creatively enough. The process isn’t transparent, and not fair. At this point, I’m just grateful he’s in advanced math and eager for him to finish elementary school. My DD is in second this year and I’m worried the same thing will happen to her.

[Anonymous]

Everyone knows what the elements are of the packet that gets reviewed, how is that not transparent. What makes the process unfair? Are you expecting individualized feedback on the x% denied out of the 10,000 or so kids they evaluate for AAP each year as to why their particular packet didn't get selected? Are you expecting that they take some of the subjective factors (work samples, GBRS/HOPE + teacher comments, etc.) and somehow convert those to objective criteria that can be plugged into a deterministic formula? Do you feel the same re: fairness/transparency about other subjective and non-transparent selective processes
that we all experience throughout life (sports teams, college applications, job applications, promotions/raises, dating, etc.)?

I DO understand the frustration of feeling like your kid would do well in AAP but for some reason wasn't selected, but I'm just not clear what alternative is expected or why this is seen as particularly non-transparent/unfair, as this just seems like it is part of life and how things work. You could make the argument that life isn't fair (or transparent) either, and I'd agree with you on that! Just doesn't seem like it is anything unique to AAP, and that they do provide as much transparency about the process as one could reasonably expect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone knows what the elements are of the packet that gets reviewed, how is that not transparent. What makes the process unfair? Are you expecting individualized feedback on the x% denied out of the 10,000 or so kids they evaluate for AAP each year as to why their particular packet didn't get selected? Are you expecting that they take some of the subjective factors (work samples, GBRS/HOPE + teacher comments, etc.) and somehow convert those to objective criteria that can be plugged into a deterministic formula? Do you feel the same re: fairness/transparency about other subjective and non-transparent selective processes
that we all experience throughout life (sports teams, college applications, job applications, promotions/raises, dating, etc.)?

I DO understand the frustration of feeling like your kid would do well in AAP but for some reason wasn't selected, but I'm just not clear what alternative is expected or why this is seen as particularly non-transparent/unfair, as this just seems like it is part of life and how things work. You could make the argument that life isn't fair (or transparent) either, and I'd agree with you on that! Just doesn't seem like it is anything unique to AAP, and that they do provide as much transparency about the process as one could reasonably expect.

Everyone does know about the various criteria, but no one knows how the various criteria are weighted in the evaluation. In addition, there are a lot of very different criteria, which makes it all the harder. I think what would be helpful would to provide a rubric for the evaluation process and also statistics on the number of people who applied and number of people accepted, as well as average scores, etc where there are quantitative measures.

Furthermore, the evaluation process is set up so that everyone can deny responsibility. The teacher, AART and principal can say that the central
committee decides. The central committee can say that they are just going off of info provided to them. Accordingly, when something is off or goes wrong, there is no one to even talk to.

I have said this many times - just have very clear, objective standards that anyone can meet with some
time and effort and eliminate any caps on the number of people who can be in AAP. This way, anyone who is willing to put in some effort, can get in. This will reduce the people arguing that there is no transparency. It may “lower” AAP standards but people already complain that standards are lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone knows what the elements are of the packet that gets reviewed, how is that not transparent. What makes the process unfair? Are you expecting individualized feedback on the x% denied out of the 10,000 or so kids they evaluate for AAP each year as to why their particular packet didn't get selected? Are you expecting that they take some of the subjective factors (work samples, GBRS/HOPE + teacher comments, etc.) and somehow convert those to objective criteria that can be plugged into a deterministic formula? Do you feel the same re: fairness/transparency about other subjective and non-transparent selective processes
that we all experience throughout life (sports teams, college applications, job applications, promotions/raises, dating, etc.)?

I DO understand the frustration of feeling like your kid would do well in AAP but for some reason wasn't selected, but I'm just not clear what alternative is expected or why this is seen as particularly non-transparent/unfair, as this just seems like it is part of life and how things work. You could make the argument that life isn't fair (or transparent) either, and I'd agree with you on that! Just doesn't seem like it is anything unique to AAP, and that they do provide as much transparency about the process as one could reasonably expect.

Everyone does know about the various criteria, but no one knows how the various criteria are weighted in the evaluation. In addition, there are a lot of very different criteria, which makes it all the harder. I think what would be helpful would to provide a rubric for the evaluation process and also statistics on the number of people who applied and number of people accepted, as well as average scores, etc where there are quantitative measures.

Furthermore, the evaluation process is set up so that everyone can deny responsibility. The teacher, AART and principal can say that the central
committee decides. The central committee can say that they are just going off of info provided to them. Accordingly, when something is off or goes wrong, there is no one to even talk to.

I have said this many times - just have very clear, objective standards that anyone can meet with some
time and effort and eliminate any caps on the number of people who can be in AAP. This way, anyone who is willing to put in some effort, can get in. This will reduce the people arguing that there is no transparency. It may “lower” AAP standards but people already complain that standards are lower.

Transparency, yes, I agree with that. And let's face it: with all the various components (HOPE scores, CogAT/NNAT/iReady scores, Young Scholar points, ESL points), the committee must convert them into some sort of weighted algorithm to have any chance of being consistent across whatever population they are evaluating (i.e. local norms, district norm).

However, I do not agree that the standard should be lowered such that "anyone" can get in. That's not the mission of AAP which is supposed to satisfy the state requirement for gifted education. The objective should be to raise the standard and still have more kids qualify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

The theory is if you are at a school with a lot of smart kids in gen ed, your needs will already be met in that classroom. They are really focusing this year (per our AART) on whether your kid strictly needs the acceleration and achieving peer group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

The theory is if you are at a school with a lot of smart kids in gen ed, your needs will already be met in that classroom. They are really focusing this year (per our AART) on whether your kid strictly needs the acceleration and achieving peer group.

This theory falls short when these super high achieving kids in GenEd aren't receiving the advanced math curriculum, especially in center schools who don't principal place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

Good point. Life is really unfair for the poor, unfortunate children of McLean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

Good point. Life is really unfair for the poor, unfortunate children of McLean.

I don't live in McLean, but nice try.

Either way, all children of the same aptitude deserve the same education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is disappointing to hear - I would like for this to be consistent across schools and not just within one school. I wonder if parents are going to start choosing to send their kids to crappy ES' for the first three years just to get them into AAP and then move.

We send our kid to a small, extremely diverse school we absolutely love that you would probably consider crappy. And she will almost certainly get into AAP with scores that wouldn't be enough in other parts of the county. Also our lovely neighborhood was relatively affordable. Feels good!

Congratulations to your kid, but do you not see how unfair this is to children who got higher scores and ratings than her but don't get in just because they are in a school with a lot of other kids like that?

The theory is if you are at a school with a lot of smart kids in gen ed, your needs will already be met in that classroom. They are really focusing this year (per our AART) on whether your kid strictly needs the acceleration and achieving peer group.

But that's not true.

[Anonymous]

At OP. Whatever AAP school your child is filter to will only have a selected number of slots per school that feeds in.

Your child is going to be evaluated against his/her peers at his school. As a previous commenter mention, if you're going to a school that is overall academically weaker than another school, your child has a better chance of getting selected to attend AAP.

I know this because I have been through this process numerous times already and have friends whose children attend different schools with worst schools than my children but still got accepted compared to the process we had to go through.

To the other comment about race. While RACE is not specifically put as a variable on the front page with BIG BOLD letter, it is known and been proven that RACE does play a role into the application.

Reason is several years ago, a lot of the AAP schools, for example Louise Archer Elementary School had a high Asian (including India/Pakistan) study body which cause parents of non-asian decent to complain.

Your asian child will be compared to other asian classmates if there is an overwhelming number of eligible applicants for the year you're applying. The schools want diversification and not a repeat of TJ where 50% of the student body is of Asian origin.

If there are only 8 slots and 10 kids eligible and multiple asian kids, say 3, and the other 7 are a mix between White, Black or Hispanic, they will get selected and the 3 asian kids will battle it out for the last spot.

Many studies have been done from the scandal of Harvard not admitting Asian students to TJ down to the public school system. Don't complain to me. Go complain to the stories and lawsuits already published.

Those who refute this are obviously non-asian aka white.