Taking math classes at the local college
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}
Anonymous
Feeling feisty today? I was comparing jobs and internships to putting a lot of time and effort into math competitions. It would be more relevant for high school, but typically the competition path starts early in elementary and middle schools. |
Anonymous
NP. Competition math can be quite useful. Kids who excel at competition math understand math concepts backward and forward. There's no way to earn high scores on AMC10 or AIME without mastery of algebra, geometry, and beyond. Also, competition math is one of the best motivators or vehicles for branching out into number theory and combinatorics. Neither topic is generally covered to any real degree in regular school math. Also, there's no way that the kid "crammed to pass an AP calculus test in 5th grade without spending time with the material so it sinks in." If the kid got a 5 on the AP calc exam, then he has mastered the material and all of the foundational materials. There's no need to spend more time with the material. |
Anonymous
|
Our son enjoys the math competition class he is in and participating in the competitions themselves. The problems they work on and the approaches they are taught require more creative thinking and are more engaging. He is in 6th grade and in Advanced Math with FCPS. He does RSM. He said that what his 6th grade RSM is teaching is harder then his school math but that it is all things he has seen through the competition program.
The competition math seems to require solid foundational skills as well as the ability to use multiple methods in one problem to solve the problem. DS enjoys that. He arrives at the answer one way while others get there a different way and they discuss their approaches. |
Anonymous
NP. My DC is not in FCPS yet and this math competition stuff is very foreign to me. When do kids usually start? And are there some who just don't like it but still manage to learn a lot of cool things outside of the regular curriculum? Do these competitions attract very competitive personalities or is there a broader range of individuals participating and enjoying? |
Anonymous
It was new to me. RSM has a competition program. They offer a test to join. DS started the competition program in fourth. It is a second class, so another two hours. They take many of the competition tests in the class. I have no idea who the competitions attract because of when he takes them. You get the individual score and ranking at home. DS doesn’t have any other friends who participate in competitions. |
Anonymous
Thanks! I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there. It's a whole new world for me because I didn't have any opportunities like this growing up, nor was I nurtured in math like I am trying to do for my DC. Also thank you to the posters who gave the really interesting suggestions for math enrichment. I bought one of the math circles books for elementary aged kids and already finding it really interesting and fun (both of us). |
Anonymous
For a serious kid who loves math and doesn’t need a lot of games and stickers, try Mathnasium. They will race him through the basics before getting him back up to calculus, but they’ll give him a great foundation. Other ideas: Find Isaac Asimov’s old books about topics like topology for lay people. They’re great for a kid who likes learning about fun math things but is too young for advanced university math. Art of Problem Solving Online: https://artofproblemsolving.com/ Call up Johns Hopkins and weep. Maybe they would give a genuinely bright kid a discount for their gifted children program. |
Anonymous
A 5 on AP calculus requires only 65% of the points, half of which are multiple-choice questions. |
Anonymous
|
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]My kid is in first grade and we are working through a calculus textbook at home. Math just comes to him. Would love for him to get a better foundation than I can provide. These college classes sound expensive though. What is the cost?[/quote]
I have seen claims like this before on DCUM and it blows my mind. I don't think this is actually possible, but I could be wrong! I don't know enough about giftedness. Can you elaborate on how your child has the knowledge and cognitive foundation for calculus at age 6/7? In terms of your q, if your child is that intelligent, not sure they need to go to college to learn anything. Stick with textbooks and tutors? Or see if DC can audit? There's also MOOCs, which could be a lot better than any inperson instruction where you are at the mercy of who ever gets assigned to teach the course (whereas MOOCs often have amazing teachers). DC must also be able to use a computer by now.[/quote] Kid is 6yo and uses computers. He was reading chapter books during K so we focused on math over the summer. Algebra, geometry, trigonometry, etc. I’m not saying he has mastered anything but we are working through a calculus textbook now to keep him interested. I’m really confused what to do about school so I do appreciate the suggestions. I was initially considering college courses as an option a few years from now, but he also deserves a childhood and likes playing with kids his age. We are private people and don’t want any attention.[/quote] Terence Tao, "the smartest mathematician in the world", learned calculus in 5th grade. Your kidndidn't didn't learn it in 1st grade. RSM Math Contest archives, AoPS AMC 8/10 archives, AoPS Alcumus and Euclidea.xyz to start. Watch 3B1B and Mathologer videos , and pause and try to predict what he's going to say before he says it. "Reading" a math book is like looking at the pictures in a literacy book. It's fun butnits not learning. Understanding math requires doing problems. A lot of kids read super advanced math, don't understand it, don't retain it, can't solve slightly tricky elementary level problems, and then have trouble in school because they skip super far ahead without truly learning. I've seen it in my own kid, who has solved impressively hard contest problems relating to what he was studying, but then couldn't solve similar problems a few months later. Even that kid in the article who took AP calculus and got a top score of 5. Did he learn it well? Maybe, who knows. A score of 5 and AP calculus test requires only 65% of the test points. Half the test is multiple choice so if you have the basic idea of what things mean, you have a high chance of guessing the answer even if you can't fully solve the problem. 10% of the test uses a graphing calculator so all you need to do there is transform word problems into a formula. For a truly advanced math kid, you need to be doing things that are well beyond the standard school curriculum and testing, not just hyper accelerating and cramming through the curriculum and low expectations designed for average kids. [/quote] Agree in general with this post, however people do math for a broad variety of reasons, not only competition math, and not everyone is aiming to become a mathematician. You need math to be able to do rigorous science, engineering, economics etc. One can argue it’s better to have a broader and more superficial knowledge base. If math is a tool and not someone’s main focus, getting a 5 on the AP Calculus may just be good enough. I’m also doubtful about how useful competition math is. For career skills, I think it’s better to develop other areas, like working with others, leadership etc.[/quote] I disagree. Cramming for a test is for beefing up the college application resume. Scientists and Engineers need to actually understand and remember the math they do. If you don't need to understand the math, that's fine, you can have a great life and career doing something else, but then racing through cramming the curriculum superficially isn't worthwhile either. [/quote] You imply that getting a 5 on the AP exam is equivalent to cramming for the test and having a superficial knowledge of the material and not actually understanding it. In reality, getting a 5 on any of the STEM AP’s puts the student in the top 1% of academic performance for that subject. IMO that’s definitely passes the threshold for a successful STEM career. It’s true that qualifying for AIME puts the student roughly in the 0.1%, but then you have to weigh in the effort, time spent on it etc. I’d argue that a 5 in AP Calculus, Statistics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Computer Science is better than a AIME qualification, and would require a similar level of effort. [/quote] Why are we talking about AIME? I was talking about cramming to pass an AP calculus test in 5th grade without spending time with the material so it sinks in. [/quote] NP. Competition math can be quite useful. Kids who excel at competition math understand math concepts backward and forward. There's no way to earn high scores on AMC10 or AIME without mastery of algebra, geometry, and beyond. Also, competition math is one of the best motivators or vehicles for branching out into number theory and combinatorics. Neither topic is generally covered to any real degree in regular school math. Also, there's no way that the kid "crammed to pass an AP calculus test in 5th grade without spending time with the material so it sinks in." If the kid got a 5 on the AP calc exam, then he has mastered the material and all of the foundational materials. There's no need to spend more time with the material. [/quote] First you say "There's no way to earn high scores on AMC10 or AIME without mastery of algebra, geometry, and beyond. ", then you say "got a 5 on the AP calc exam, then he has mastered the material and all of the foundational materials." I agree on the AMC, but getting a 5 on AP calculus is nowhere near as hard as getting a high AMC 10 score (which is only early algebra and geometry!) and yet Mr 5 on AP Calculus didn't mention trying his hand at the AMC 10 (let alone AIME or AMC 12). Not even a mention of the AMC 8 (prealgebra) which surely would have have merited a mention for winning an honor 3 years early. Meanwhile, Terence Tao, who also took calculus in 5th grade, won a medal at the International Math Olympiad the same year. I'm not saying everyone taking early calculus should be an IMO winner, but someone who "masters" calculus young would have something beyond the basic curriculum to show for it. It's simply a fact that most people who take calculus don't hang on to their math knowledge. This fact is driving the current massive reform movement to slow down math acceleration and teach more deeply. |
Anonymous
I did that and trust me, the AIME is much harder than any AP test. |
Anonymous
So? Anyone can write an arbitrarily difficult test, where earning 65% of the points is still quite challenging. If it were that easy to get a 5 on the AP calc test, more kids would do it. For the multiple choice part, the test writers figured out the most likely or common mistakes, and used those as the wrong answer choices. They're not going to have questions where you can just work backward from the answer choices. You also don't know that the kid in question only got 65% of the points and not 99% of the points. You're really not going to get a 5 on the AP calc test if you have any real holes in your trig or algebra foundations. Hey, I don't know anything about this particular kid. Maybe he's exceptionally gifted in math. Maybe he has just been pushed ahead by attention seeking parents and isn't that special. There are a lot of kids who are strong at math but don't participate in contests due to the extreme time crunch in contests. There are a lot of kids who take Calc in 6th-8th grade who would have been able to take it in 5th without loss of foundation, but the parents didn't see a point in pushing ahead. |
Anonymous
Of course qualifying for AIME through AMC 10/12 is harder than APs, since about 50k kids get a 5 on any of the AP in a given year, while only roughly 5k students qualify for AIME. My point was given that level of effort, in my opinion it is better to broaden the knowledge base into sciences or other areas than choose a very narrow math competition focus. |
Anonymous
|
[quote=Anonymous]
First you say "There's no way to earn high scores on AMC10 or AIME without mastery of algebra, geometry, and beyond. ", then you say "got a 5 on the AP calc exam, then he has mastered the material and all of the foundational materials." I agree on the AMC, but getting a 5 on AP calculus is nowhere near as hard as getting a high AMC 10 score (which is only early algebra and geometry!) and yet Mr 5 on AP Calculus didn't mention trying his hand at the AMC 10 (let alone AIME or AMC 12). Not even a mention of the AMC 8 (prealgebra) which surely would have have merited a mention for winning an honor 3 years early. Meanwhile, Terence Tao, who also took calculus in 5th grade, won a medal at the International Math Olympiad the same year. I'm not saying everyone taking early calculus should be an IMO winner, but someone who "masters" calculus young would have something beyond the basic curriculum to show for it. It's simply a fact that most people who take calculus don't hang on to their math knowledge. This fact is driving the current massive reform movement to slow down math acceleration and teach more deeply. [/quote] Not everyone has to follow Terence Tao or some other random dude’s path. Maybe the kid’s passion is something other than International Math Olympiad, and did calculus as a challenge. Even in the article it is mentioned that he was interested in entrepreneurship, I don’t think working hard for an IMO qualification would get him any closer to that goal. The kid doesn’t need to prove anything to anyone even if he just sticks to the ‘basic’ curriculum and has nothing to ‘show’ later on. Show to whom? Someone can be interested in math in middle school and discover they love chemistry or engineering in high school. |
Anonymous
|
[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
First you say "There's no way to earn high scores on AMC10 or AIME without mastery of algebra, geometry, and beyond. ", then you say "got a 5 on the AP calc exam, then he has mastered the material and all of the foundational materials." I agree on the AMC, but getting a 5 on AP calculus is nowhere near as hard as getting a high AMC 10 score (which is only early algebra and geometry!) and yet Mr 5 on AP Calculus didn't mention trying his hand at the AMC 10 (let alone AIME or AMC 12). Not even a mention of the AMC 8 (prealgebra) which surely would have have merited a mention for winning an honor 3 years early. Meanwhile, Terence Tao, who also took calculus in 5th grade, won a medal at the International Math Olympiad the same year. I'm not saying everyone taking early calculus should be an IMO winner, but someone who "masters" calculus young would have something beyond the basic curriculum to show for it. It's simply a fact that most people who take calculus don't hang on to their math knowledge. This fact is driving the current massive reform movement to slow down math acceleration and teach more deeply. [/quote] Not everyone has to follow Terence Tao or some other random dude’s path. Maybe the kid’s passion is something other than International Math Olympiad, and did calculus as a challenge. Even in the article it is mentioned that he was interested in entrepreneurship, I don’t think working hard for an IMO qualification would get him any closer to that goal. The kid doesn’t need to prove anything to anyone even if he just sticks to the ‘basic’ curriculum and has nothing to ‘show’ later on. Show to whom? Someone can be interested in math in middle school and discover they love chemistry or engineering in high school. [/quote] The point is that if you are "interested in math", skipping learning high school math and rushing superficially through calculus is stupid. |
Anonymous
|
[quote=Anonymous]
The point is that if you are "interested in math", skipping learning high school math and rushing superficially through calculus is stupid. [/quote] According to you, getting a 5 in AP Calculus in 5th grade is rushing superficially through calculus and is ‘stupid’ because it doesn’t satisfy your desire to also see a high AMC score to give that kid your nod of approval. Luckily he doesn’t need it or cares about it. If you’ll look that kid up, he ended up graduating high school one year early as a valedictorian, was very involved in robotics competitions and software development and is now at Duke. That’s being successful by any objective measure. |