If teachers are leaving left and right, is it the principal's fault?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like Shrevewood in Falls Church.

We Shrevewood parents deserve all the scorn we get on DCUM.

If the teachers are asking for transfers, I think that is a sure-fire signal that the principal isn't up to the job. If they are just quitting the profession, that is an entirely different story and could be due to any number of factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's more complicated than just the principal.

Yeah, sometimes it’s not.

+1. A toxic or indifferent principal makes or breaks a school. Someone asks whether the good principals get any recognition. I don't know the official answer to this, but the unofficial answer is that nowadays everyone knows which schools in particular regions have terrible principals. There's a reason why some schools have high turnover and some barely have any.

The principal at my school has gone off the deep end, but I’m not sure anyone but those who work with her know it. I like my colleagues, so I’m just hoping she leaves before I have to.

[Anonymous]

Principals have a huge part in it. The other factors mentioned are part of it, but if you have an admin team that truly has your back, that listens and problem-solves with you, then you are much more likely to stick it out. Principals have a great deal of power and very little oversight. Their supervisors have no idea what they do day to day, unless someone has the guts to go over their head. A friend of mine was repeatedly hit by a sixth-grader and had things thrown at her, and was told by the principal that the child didn’t throw things at other IAs, so she must be the problem. This was a very troubled girl and a highly experienced teacher. You would not believe how principals can sabotage a school and demoralize the staff. If you have a huge turnover each year, which some schools do repeatedly, the principal is the cause. Do region superintendents even hear from HR how many teachers are transferring or leaving each year?

One principal at an elementary school with huge turnover each year told the staff that losing 20-25 teachers each year was normal! I don’t think so.

In my view, this responsive classroom mess started a lot of principals thinking kids would just behave magically and no consequences are needed. Children need boundaries and clear behavior guidelines. A kid kicks the teacher and goes for a walk with the counselor and returns to class, having gotten all that personal attention? At the elementary level, they’ve lost sight of how reinforcing negative behavior works and not having reasonable consequences does not work. I’m a very therapeutic type of teacher, and fully understand that we need to figure out what help the child needs, but saying the teacher should have used a Kagan strategy is not working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Principals have a huge part in it. The other factors mentioned are part of it, but if you have an admin team that truly has your back, that listens and problem-solves with you, then you are much more likely to stick it out. Principals have a great deal of power and very little oversight. Their supervisors have no idea what they do day to day, unless someone has the guts to go over their head. A friend of mine was repeatedly hit by a sixth-grader and had things thrown at her, and was told by the principal that the child didn’t throw things at other IAs, so she must be the problem. This was a very troubled girl and a highly experienced teacher. You would not believe how principals can sabotage a school and demoralize the staff. If you have a huge turnover each year, which some schools do repeatedly, the principal is the cause. Do region superintendents even hear from HR how many teachers are transferring or leaving each year?

One principal at an elementary school with huge turnover each year told the staff that losing 20-25 teachers each year was normal! I don’t think so.

In my view, this responsive classroom mess started a lot of principals thinking kids would just behave magically and no consequences are needed. Children need boundaries and clear behavior guidelines. A kid kicks the teacher and goes for a walk with the counselor and returns to class, having gotten all that personal attention? At the elementary level, they’ve lost sight of how reinforcing negative behavior works and not having reasonable consequences does not work. I’m a very therapeutic type of teacher, and fully understand that we need to figure out what help the child needs, but saying the teacher should have used a Kagan strategy is not working.

I wouldn’t know how to go over my principal’s head. I am pretty sure any attempt I made to report her would end in me being fired. Right now, most of the faculty just try to avoid her. What’s sad is that it takes teachers leaving en masse to even point to a problem. By then it’s too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like Shrevewood in Falls Church.

We Shrevewood parents deserve all the scorn we get on DCUM.

If the teachers are asking for transfers, I think that is a sure-fire signal that the principal isn't up to the job. If they are just quitting the profession, that is an entirely different story and could be due to any number of factors.

Lol Shrevewood is a dumpster fire and the parents there are definitely the kindling

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have had multiple teachers quit mid-year - is this because they're not being supported by the principal? The last time this happened, the principal was fired. Is ours likely to get fired too? Should families contact the Exec Principal or Regional Principal?

I left because the county put too many expectations on teachers (excessive workload without enough planning) and the many of the kids were getting lazier and ruder each year. Not sure you can put those things on the principal.

I didn't realize how much they can do until I worked for strong admin. Like, our last school planning day was a full TWD for us--they canceled all meetings. I'm sure they got flack for it, but they absorbed that to shield us because they knew we needed time more than anything else.

Ditto - our ES administrators cancelled our staff dev day a few weeks ago and gave us the entire day to finish our conferences. I STILL feel overwhelmed, but I am definitely thankful that they do the best they can within the framework that we all work. Knowing my P, he’d happily take the heat if someone called him on it. They always seem to have a good pulse on stress levels (ex. They cancelled CLTs this week due to Thanksgiving and all the craziness). Very lucky!!

As they should have! Teaching is a lot in 2022!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Principals have a huge part in it. The other factors mentioned are part of it, but if you have an admin team that truly has your back, that listens and problem-solves with you, then you are much more likely to stick it out. Principals have a great deal of power and very little oversight. Their supervisors have no idea what they do day to day, unless someone has the guts to go over their head. A friend of mine was repeatedly hit by a sixth-grader and had things thrown at her, and was told by the principal that the child didn’t throw things at other IAs, so she must be the problem. This was a very troubled girl and a highly experienced teacher. You would not believe how principals can sabotage a school and demoralize the staff. If you have a huge turnover each year, which some schools do repeatedly, the principal is the cause. Do region superintendents even hear from HR how many teachers are transferring or leaving each year?

One principal at an elementary school with huge turnover each year told the staff that losing 20-25 teachers each year was normal! I don’t think so.

In my view, this responsive classroom mess started a lot of principals thinking kids would just behave magically and no consequences are needed. Children need boundaries and clear behavior guidelines. A kid kicks the teacher and goes for a walk with the counselor and returns to class, having gotten all that personal attention? At the elementary level, they’ve lost sight of how reinforcing negative behavior works and not having reasonable consequences does not work. I’m a very therapeutic type of teacher, and fully understand that we need to figure out what help the child needs, but saying the teacher should have used a Kagan strategy is not working.

+ a million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Principals have a huge part in it. The other factors mentioned are part of it, but if you have an admin team that truly has your back, that listens and problem-solves with you, then you are much more likely to stick it out. Principals have a great deal of power and very little oversight. Their supervisors have no idea what they do day to day, unless someone has the guts to go over their head. A friend of mine was repeatedly hit by a sixth-grader and had things thrown at her, and was told by the principal that the child didn’t throw things at other IAs, so she must be the problem. This was a very troubled girl and a highly experienced teacher. You would not believe how principals can sabotage a school and demoralize the staff. If you have a huge turnover each year, which some schools do repeatedly, the principal is the cause. Do region superintendents even hear from HR how many teachers are transferring or leaving each year?

One principal at an elementary school with huge turnover each year told the staff that losing 20-25 teachers each year was normal! I don’t think so.

In my view, this responsive classroom mess started a lot of principals thinking kids would just behave magically and no consequences are needed. Children need boundaries and clear behavior guidelines. A kid kicks the teacher and goes for a walk with the counselor and returns to class, having gotten all that personal attention? At the elementary level, they’ve lost sight of how reinforcing negative behavior works and not having reasonable consequences does not work. I’m a very therapeutic type of teacher, and fully understand that we need to figure out what help the child needs, but saying the teacher should have used a Kagan strategy is not working.

I wouldn’t know how to go over my principal’s head. I am pretty sure any attempt I made to report her would end in me being fired. Right now, most of the faculty just try to avoid her. What’s sad is that it takes teachers leaving en masse to even point to a problem. By then it’s too late.

I wouldn't waste your time or energy. A group of parents and some teachers went above a principal with a lot of things that were going wrong and kids transferring out at a high number and it was just swept under the rug. I don't think they will fire you they need you but nothing will change.

[Anonymous]

There are lots of things a principal can do to a teacher she doesn't like. LOTS. I'm lucky to have the principal I have. She doesn't pull any passive aggressive crap. I *have* seen her fire 3 teachers in 7 years time. All who absolutely deserved to be fired. I love that woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's more complicated than just the principal.

Yeah, sometimes it’s not.

+1. A toxic or indifferent principal makes or breaks a school. Someone asks whether the good principals get any recognition. I don't know the official answer to this, but the unofficial answer is that nowadays everyone knows which schools in particular regions have terrible principals. There's a reason why some schools have high turnover and some barely have any.

Agreed. Toxic people in almost every situation ruin good people.
I would hope that good principals are held up as role models and mentors for new people, so they learn to do it right.
As a parent, our principal, Chris Smith at Daniels Run seems like a good school leader.
Who else deserves a shout out this Thanksgiving?

Hey neighbor! My kids go/went Providence and Dan Phillips is great as well. We are very lucky in City of Fairfax at the ES level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the teachers truly quitting or are they just reassigned, requesting/granted transferred, lateral move, or whatever you eat to call it to a different school?

That is not possible. No one is approving a lateral move once school has started. The only way a teacher could leave after school has started would be if they got a promotion. For a teacher, that would be moving to an assistant principal position. There have been a few AP positions that have posted—maybe five or six. There’s no way that is accounting for the movement OP is noticing. The likely culprit is a combination of life events (spouse transferred, burnout, personal medical issues).

There are other “promotions” - getting a “resource teacher” position is treated as a promotion, as is a variety of jobs in central office.

Actually many are not, especially a “resource teacher position.” They’re still a teacher. Just because someone is going to central office in a support position does not mean it is a promotion. A longer contact does not mean a promotion.

My school lost 2 “teachers” last year who went to be “resource teachers” at other schools mid year, so, yeah, it was treated as a promotion, else they’d never have been able to make the move mid-year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the teachers truly quitting or are they just reassigned, requesting/granted transferred, lateral move, or whatever you eat to call it to a different school?

That is not possible. No one is approving a lateral move once school has started. The only way a teacher could leave after school has started would be if they got a promotion. For a teacher, that would be moving to an assistant principal position. There have been a few AP positions that have posted—maybe five or six. There’s no way that is accounting for the movement OP is noticing. The likely culprit is a combination of life events (spouse transferred, burnout, personal medical issues).

There are other “promotions” - getting a “resource teacher” position is treated as a promotion, as is a variety of jobs in central office.

Actually many are not, especially a “resource teacher position.” They’re still a teacher. Just because someone is going to central office in a support position does not mean it is a promotion. A longer contact does not mean a promotion.

My school lost 2 “teachers” last year who went to be “resource teachers” at other schools mid year, so, yeah, it was treated as a promotion, else they’d never have been able to make the move mid-year.

Either you’re misremembering or something else happened where your principal agreed to release these teachers. There is no promotion for a teacher to move to another teaching position mid year. Not an instructional coach, not a resource teacher, not even an SBTS is a promotion for a teacher. Principals are under no obligation to release a teacher to another school mid year unless that teacher is promoted to an assistant principal or other administrator position.

—an FCPS principal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are lots of things a principal can do to a teacher she doesn't like. LOTS. I'm lucky to have the principal I have. She doesn't pull any passive aggressive crap. I *have* seen her fire 3 teachers in 7 years time. All who absolutely deserved to be fired. I love that woman.

You're in FCPS? Very hard especially with this shortage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Principals have a huge part in it. The other factors mentioned are part of it, but if you have an admin team that truly has your back, that listens and problem-solves with you, then you are much more likely to stick it out. Principals have a great deal of power and very little oversight. Their supervisors have no idea what they do day to day, unless someone has the guts to go over their head. A friend of mine was repeatedly hit by a sixth-grader and had things thrown at her, and was told by the principal that the child didn’t throw things at other IAs, so she must be the problem. This was a very troubled girl and a highly experienced teacher. You would not believe how principals can sabotage a school and demoralize the staff. If you have a huge turnover each year, which some schools do repeatedly, the principal is the cause. Do region superintendents even hear from HR how many teachers are transferring or leaving each year?

One principal at an elementary school with huge turnover each year told the staff that losing 20-25 teachers each year was normal! I don’t think so.

In my view, this responsive classroom mess started a lot of principals thinking kids would just behave magically and no consequences are needed. Children need boundaries and clear behavior guidelines. A kid kicks the teacher and goes for a walk with the counselor and returns to class, having gotten all that personal attention? At the elementary level, they’ve lost sight of how reinforcing negative behavior works and not having reasonable consequences does not work. I’m a very therapeutic type of teacher, and fully understand that we need to figure out what help the child needs, but saying the teacher should have used a Kagan strategy is not working.

+100
This resonates with me so much as I had a very disruptive student who would always make the entire class late to specials. She refused to cooperate, pack up her things, just follow any directions at all. She was incredibly insolent and disrespectful. When I went to admin looking for solutions, I was told to "take her for a walk around the hallways to have a one-on-one conversation with her". Seriously?? Who is supposed to be watching my class while I waste my time indulging this troublemaker? That was one of the stupidest "solutions" I've ever heard. The principal and AP would take turns coming to observe my class and of course - this girl would behave beautifully while they were there. As soon as they'd leave, she would lock herself in the storage cabinets, or lay on the floor and refuse to get up. There were other disruptive kids in that class, but she was by far the worst. And I felt terrible for the five or so really sweet kids who just wanted to learn but couldn't because of all the distractions. Long story short - I wound up quitting. It is impossible to teach a class full of kids if there aren't consequences for the disrupters. They all know there are no consequences and they can get away with murder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like Shrevewood in Falls Church.

We Shrevewood parents deserve all the scorn we get on DCUM.

If the teachers are asking for transfers, I think that is a sure-fire signal that the principal isn't up to the job. If they are just quitting the profession, that is an entirely different story and could be due to any number of factors.

Lol Shrevewood is a dumpster fire and the parents there are definitely the kindling

DP. I'm one of the posters describing a different dumpster fire at a different school.