BTDT Test Optional...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a college sophomore and a HS senior and no test scores were/are involved with their admission processes. My college student got in to their first choice ED and so far my senior has two EA acceptances in hand. The advice we got was that the schools that were either test optional or actively discouraging test scores for a few years pre-Covid were the best choices for kids applying test optional. So far that has served my kids well.

This is ,earning less without identifying colleges , gpas, and other factors, as well as your demographics.

Schools that have already sent out notifications for this year tend to be those that aren’t particularly selective and not the schools people are referring to wje. Sweating this out.

I'm the PP. I would not claim that the schools my kids are attending or looking at attending are "top schools." They are, however, the right schools for my kids and part of what makes them the right schools for my kids is that they have a longstanding admissions philosophy that test scores are not an important part of assessing if a potential student is the right fit for their campus. So if you are looking for a school where test optional is the choice you are making because you genuinely feel that testing doesn't best represent who your child is, then a school that shares that view is a school you should consider your child applying to.

This is perhaps the wisest statement I've read on DCUM in a long time. And it gives me hope that there are schools that will be a right fit for one of children, who is bright, capable, mature and interested in many things but...cannot do well on these tests, and furthermore, the stress of knowing that, will create inordinate amounts of stress. May I ask this PP to share if they happen to know of a list of TO colleges pre-COVID? I know there were some (starting with Bowdoin in 69), but it's hard to find a list on Google, because the term "test optional" is so widely searched now.

I'm the PP who wrote what you quoted. I agree that it's tricky to find a master list of schools with a history of being test optional. What worked for us is starting by looking for schools that had other attributes that seemed to meet my kids' needs (like school size, emphasis on experiential education, good schools for average students, etc.) and then looking at the language on their admission pages about testing. For example, one of the schools one of my kids applied to, Warren Wilson College in NC, says this:

We search for individuals who demonstrate strong academic ability and curiosity, personal integrity, and alignment with our mission. In addition to your academic transcripts, we consider leadership, community engagement and other out-of-the-classroom experiences. We are proudly test-optional.

Language like that sends a strong message that they really mean it when they say test optional and that students can feel confident about not submitting scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

Sorry read that Wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a college sophomore and a HS senior and no test scores were/are involved with their admission processes. My college student got in to their first choice ED and so far my senior has two EA acceptances in hand. The advice we got was that the schools that were either test optional or actively discouraging test scores for a few years pre-Covid were the best choices for kids applying test optional. So far that has served my kids well.

This is ,earning less without identifying colleges , gpas, and other factors, as well as your demographics.

Schools that have already sent out notifications for this year tend to be those that aren’t particularly selective and not the schools people are referring to wje. Sweating this out.

I'm the PP. I would not claim that the schools my kids are attending or looking at attending are "top schools." They are, however, the right schools for my kids and part of what makes them the right schools for my kids is that they have a longstanding admissions philosophy that test scores are not an important part of assessing if a potential student is the right fit for their campus. So if you are looking for a school where test optional is the choice you are making because you genuinely feel that testing doesn't best represent who your child is, then a school that shares that view is a school you should consider your child applying to.

This is perhaps the wisest statement I've read on DCUM in a long time. And it gives me hope that there are schools that will be a right fit for one of children, who is bright, capable, mature and interested in many things but...cannot do well on these tests, and furthermore, the stress of knowing that, will create inordinate amounts of stress. May I ask this PP to share if they happen to know of a list of TO colleges pre-COVID? I know there were some (starting with Bowdoin in 69), but it's hard to find a list on Google, because the term "test optional" is so widely searched now.

I'm the PP who wrote what you quoted. I agree that it's tricky to find a master list of schools with a history of being test optional. What worked for us is starting by looking for schools that had other attributes that seemed to meet my kids' needs (like school size, emphasis on experiential education, good schools for average students, etc.) and then looking at the language on their admission pages about testing. For example, one of the schools one of my kids applied to, Warren Wilson College in NC, says this:

We search for individuals who demonstrate strong academic ability and curiosity, personal integrity, and alignment with our mission. In addition to your academic transcripts, we consider leadership, community engagement and other out-of-the-classroom experiences. We are proudly test-optional.

Language like that sends a strong message that they really mean it when they say test optional and that students can feel confident about not submitting scores.

I'm from the south and familiar with Warren Wilson and have a good image of it for exactly the reasons you specify. I knew someone whose goal was to work there, in student affairs. When student affairs people really want to work at a particular college, and a small one at that, it often says something very positive about the place.

With further googling, I came across this. You can sort the list "A to Z" in the "testing optional" vs. "test free" column, and I believe this is what I was hoping for.
https://fairtest.org/test-optional-list/

I have twins, and this is going to be such an interesting experience. One sounds like your child(ren). The other is likely to be a candidate for a large school D1 athlete. So we will be looking at a
lot of schools between them. May I survive this process!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what schools is your kid applying to. I think if you share that, you may get more specific information out of folks. I have thoughts (and a freshman in college from this area), but it really depends on what schools your kid is applying to.

Tulane - last year they admitted 45% of their class TO. Their middle 50 range is 1380-1490, middle 50% 1435. DC has a 1400.

Incorrect. For 2022, Tulane’s 50% was 1410-1500. It is right on their admission website under “Class of 2026” profile. I would not submit a 1400. I know this because we were just looking at the stats. My kid has a 32 and the 50% ACT range at Tulane is 31-34, so he is submitting.

I pulled it from their CDS, not their website so which is incorrect?

Page 12 - https://tulane.app.box.com/s/h7ez09u7tx68wsvxcgt4wt41nwl9vjml

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, what schools is your kid applying to. I think if you share that, you may get more specific information out of folks. I have thoughts (and a freshman in college from this area), but it really depends on what schools your kid is applying to.

Tulane - last year they admitted 45% of their class TO. Their middle 50 range is 1380-1490, middle 50% 1435. DC has a 1400.

Incorrect. For 2022, Tulane’s 50% was 1410-1500. It is right on their admission website under “Class of 2026” profile. I would not submit a 1400. I know this because we were just looking at the stats. My kid has a 32 and the 50% ACT range at Tulane is 31-34, so he is submitting.

I pulled it from their CDS, not their website so which is incorrect?

Page 12 - https://tulane.app.box.com/s/h7ez09u7tx68wsvxcgt4wt41nwl9vjml

Crap, I just realized it's 2021-2022, they don't have the 2022-2023 CDS posted yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

A score about the 50th percentile also assists the school with the goal of raising published scores, just not quite as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

Link?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

Link?

https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/sat-act-study-report.pdf

Read the whole thing or skip to the last page, last paragraph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

Link?

https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/sat-act-study-report.pdf

Read the whole thing or skip to the last page, last paragraph.

So fascinating! I will read the whole thing later but it struck me that the predictive value of GPA depends on the department and kinds of classes (large with standardized tests, etc). This may explain why LAC are fine with test optional and many have been doing it for years, where as large State Us may not be since their testibg tends to be scantron and closer to SAT testing.

[Anonymous]

OP, my son was in this situation for nearly all of the colleges he applied to last year. He submitted the scores. He was admitted to 8 of 10.

Being a little below the median score means the student is typical, not that they're inferior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

Link?

https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/sat-act-study-report.pdf

Read the whole thing or skip to the last page, last paragraph.

The irony that the UCs are now not even test optional but test blind

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD's college counselor told her not to submit scores for schools where her SAT is below the 75%. Sadly, she's only submitting it for one school. GPA is high, so hoping for the best.

What? That sounds insane. Get a second opinion.

It's not insane at all. A high SAT score offers almost zero predictive value for a kid with high grades (and good rigor). Since it doesn't actually help to answer the question it's ostensibly meant to address (Will this kid be able to handle our program?), it's valuable only if it creates some positive externality for the school. A score above the school's 75th percentile does that (by helping along the TO upward spiral of "median scores"); a score below the school's 75th percentile for the most part doesn't.

Not true actually, the research shows that test score plus gpa are more predictive, in a statistically significant way, than gpa alone.

Add in that many schools artificially inflated grades in the Covid closure era and the immediate aftermath (sophomore and junior year for current applicants. Given the recent news about how far standardized test scores dropped generally, it is even crazier for schools to be test optional. But that is the system colleges are giving us.

Link?

https://www.ucop.edu/institutional-research-academic-planning/_files/sat-act-study-report.pdf

Read the whole thing or skip to the last page, last paragraph.

The irony that the UCs are now not even test optional but test blind

The uc board of regents made that decision over the objections of the UC faculty, including the authors of this study, who felt the system should continue to use both test scores and gpa for admission. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/11/19/university-of-california-reaches-final-decision-no-more-standardized-admission-testing/

It was a purely political decision.