Why EV?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:90% it’s status and virtue signaling. And I’m an environmentalist. Most people who own EV fly enough that their commute is noise (esp in new WFH paradigm)

Relative to combustion engines, EVs are a significant improvement with respect to CO2 emissions. The analysis below includes emissions from production:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867#:~:text=The%20total%20life%2Dcycle%20emissions,to%20internal%20combustion%20engine%20vehicles.&text=Modern%20battery%20recycling%20techniques%20can,about%2060%20%25%20to%2065%20%25.

So no, an EV isn't virtue signaling. EVs are a good step forward in our efforts to reduce emissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do they do for long trips? How long do you have to stop to charge? Have you ever gotten stuck because others are charging at your planned stop?

We have a hybrid. Love it.

after extensive research on evs, think this is the first logical step.....50-60 mpgs seems to be the sweet spot

Still have all the maintenance costs and headaches of a gas car, though. Over the period you own the car, those logistics may wind up being more annoying than the time you spend figuring out how and where to charge would be in a fully electric one.

there are not a lot of maintenance costs on automotive internal combustion engines these days. on a hybrid, you can typically go over 10k miles before it wants a $50 oil change. a lot of hybrids have eliminated the transmission entirely. as with an EV, the brakes get much less use than a regular car because regeneration does a lot of the work. what maintenance costs and "headaches" would you anticipate?

regarding long-term reliability, the hybrid's computer system is generally a lot more protective of its lithium battery. It doesn't let it fully charge or fully discharge, which greatly improves its longevity. it's also a much smaller, and cheaper battery, than is in an EV, if it ever requires replacement.

--engineer and owner of two hybrid CUVs

[Anonymous]

We have 2 EV’s, both teslas. We drive a lot because we live in a mountain town next to a larger city, so everything is spread out. We have solar on our house. From April - October, about 90% of charging is done by solar for both cars. From Nov - March, it is much less, like 20-30%, but even so, it’s cheaper than gas. During those months, we rely more on charging on the free chargers at our workplace, which run on renewables or has a carbon offset (part of vail epic 100% renewable promise).

It feels great to have close to zero emissions from solar/ev combo for part of the year and for the rest of the year, we try our best. I can sit in a toasty parked car in the winter and blast the air conditioning in a parked car in the summer. I can preheat and precool the car. I can leave our dog in the car with the temp at 68 degrees in the middle of summer. The acceleration is awesome. I haven’t been to a gas station in 6 months. The only maintenance is tires, wipers, and air filters. No oil changes, brake pads, brake fluid, transmissions, transmission fluid, jumper cables, radiators, catalytic converters, coolant, spark plugs, fuel pump, water pump, fan belt, ignition, etc.

In April, I drove 1500 miles on my ev. Average gas cost for ice vehicle is 11.29 per 100 miles, so this would have cost me $170 in gas. Instead, I paid $9. Over the course of the year, I would have paid $2000+ in gas and instead I pay about $500 in electricity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have 2 EV’s, both teslas. We drive a lot because we live in a mountain town next to a larger city, so everything is spread out. We have solar on our house. From April - October, about 90% of charging is done by solar for both cars. From Nov - March, it is much less, like 20-30%, but even so, it’s cheaper than gas. During those months, we rely more on charging on the free chargers at our workplace, which run on renewables or has a carbon offset (part of vail epic 100% renewable promise).

It feels great to have close to zero emissions from solar/ev combo for part of the year and for the rest of the year, we try our best. I can sit in a toasty parked car in the winter and blast the air conditioning in a parked car in the summer. I can preheat and precool the car. I can leave our dog in the car with the temp at 68 degrees in the middle of summer. The acceleration is awesome. I haven’t been to a gas station in 6 months. The only maintenance is tires, wipers, and air filters. No oil changes, brake pads, brake fluid, transmissions, transmission fluid, jumper cables, radiators, catalytic converters, coolant, spark plugs, fuel pump, water pump, fan belt, ignition, etc.

In April, I drove 1500 miles on my ev. Average gas cost for ice vehicle is 11.29 per 100 miles, so this would have cost me $170 in gas. Instead, I paid $9. Over the course of the year, I would have paid $2000+ in gas and instead I pay about $500 in electricity.

Thanks for writing this up. Very informative. The significant reduced maintenance makes sense, but--and here I show my ignorance--was surprised that brake pads and fluids were on your list. What makes the process of braking different on EVs vs. Gas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

This is a nuts analogy, ignoring lots of factors including the nature of electric power markets and utilities. I guess if there was only one restaurant in town and people were required to eat all their meals there and the government regulated what the restaurant could serve and charge you might begin to have a relevant point?

Residential solar is often the cheapest source of new electric power, so unless you think there will never be a need for additional electric power it makes all kinds of sense to let people sell excess power back at wholesale rates. People selling it back still have to pay for infrastructure and connection fees, and people who need power would still have to pay for new sources of electricity one way or another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have 2 EV’s, both teslas. We drive a lot because we live in a mountain town next to a larger city, so everything is spread out. We have solar on our house. From April - October, about 90% of charging is done by solar for both cars. From Nov - March, it is much less, like 20-30%, but even so, it’s cheaper than gas. During those months, we rely more on charging on the free chargers at our workplace, which run on renewables or has a carbon offset (part of vail epic 100% renewable promise).

It feels great to have close to zero emissions from solar/ev combo for part of the year and for the rest of the year, we try our best. I can sit in a toasty parked car in the winter and blast the air conditioning in a parked car in the summer. I can preheat and precool the car. I can leave our dog in the car with the temp at 68 degrees in the middle of summer. The acceleration is awesome. I haven’t been to a gas station in 6 months. The only maintenance is tires, wipers, and air filters. No oil changes, brake pads, brake fluid, transmissions, transmission fluid, jumper cables, radiators, catalytic converters, coolant, spark plugs, fuel pump, water pump, fan belt, ignition, etc.

In April, I drove 1500 miles on my ev. Average gas cost for ice vehicle is 11.29 per 100 miles, so this would have cost me $170 in gas. Instead, I paid $9. Over the course of the year, I would have paid $2000+ in gas and instead I pay about $500 in electricity.

Thanks for writing this up. Very informative. The significant reduced maintenance makes sense, but--and here I show my ignorance--was surprised that brake pads and fluids were on your list. What makes the process of braking different on EVs vs. Gas?

EVs use regenerative braking-- they capture some of the energy of the car when braking. This can be set to either be "weak", like an ICE in neutral, or "strong" like an ICE with brakes applied (or like a manual transmission downshift).

For many EV drivers, they can use "one pedal driving" where they in city driving they come to a stop by lifting their foot off the accelerator, not by using the brake. Results in a lot less brake wear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

This is a nuts analogy, ignoring lots of factors including the nature of electric power markets and utilities. I guess if there was only one restaurant in town and people were required to eat all their meals there and the government regulated what the restaurant could serve and charge you might begin to have a relevant point?

Residential solar is often the cheapest source of new electric power, so unless you think there will never be a need for additional electric power it makes all kinds of sense to let people sell excess power back at wholesale rates. People selling it back still have to pay for infrastructure and connection fees, and people who need power would still have to pay for new sources of electricity one way or another.

Buying it at sholesale rates is not necessarily reasonable. If they're producing an excess of solar power, it likely means that the utility doesn't need additional power at that point. It still doesn't cover the cost of the grid, which is required for sending it back to the power company. It doesn't cover all the additional costs of operating a large corporation, even one that is a tightly regulated monopoly.

Just ask yourself how sustainable it would be if every ratepayer had solar panels and expected to sell power back whenever the sun was shining. Sell it to whom??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have 2 EV’s, both teslas. We drive a lot because we live in a mountain town next to a larger city, so everything is spread out. We have solar on our house. From April - October, about 90% of charging is done by solar for both cars. From Nov - March, it is much less, like 20-30%, but even so, it’s cheaper than gas. During those months, we rely more on charging on the free chargers at our workplace, which run on renewables or has a carbon offset (part of vail epic 100% renewable promise).

It feels great to have close to zero emissions from solar/ev combo for part of the year and for the rest of the year, we try our best. I can sit in a toasty parked car in the winter and blast the air conditioning in a parked car in the summer. I can preheat and precool the car. I can leave our dog in the car with the temp at 68 degrees in the middle of summer. The acceleration is awesome. I haven’t been to a gas station in 6 months. The only maintenance is tires, wipers, and air filters. No oil changes, brake pads, brake fluid, transmissions, transmission fluid, jumper cables, radiators, catalytic converters, coolant, spark plugs, fuel pump, water pump, fan belt, ignition, etc.

In April, I drove 1500 miles on my ev. Average gas cost for ice vehicle is 11.29 per 100 miles, so this would have cost me $170 in gas. Instead, I paid $9. Over the course of the year, I would have paid $2000+ in gas and instead I pay about $500 in electricity.

Thanks for writing this up. Very informative. The significant reduced maintenance makes sense, but--and here I show my ignorance--was surprised that brake pads and fluids were on your list. What makes the process of braking different on EVs vs. Gas?

Sorry I got carried away - there are brake pads and fluid on EV’s, but they wear down really slowly and they could last forever. They are there as back up to the regenerative braking which you most often use. When you press the accelerator, the motor drives the wheels. When you release the accelerator, the electric motor disengages from the wheels, and instead of the battery powering the motor, the kinetic energy of the spinning wheels powers the battery, if that makes sense. The car brakes because the wheels are encountering the natural resistance of the motor not running.

So yes, there are brakes and pads, but they are not used as often. When I stop at a stoplight or a stop sign, I just release the accelerator and come to a stop. It actually stops faster than I think, so often I have to “ride” the accelerator to get to the correct stopping place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

This is a nuts analogy, ignoring lots of factors including the nature of electric power markets and utilities. I guess if there was only one restaurant in town and people were required to eat all their meals there and the government regulated what the restaurant could serve and charge you might begin to have a relevant point?

Residential solar is often the cheapest source of new electric power, so unless you think there will never be a need for additional electric power it makes all kinds of sense to let people sell excess power back at wholesale rates. People selling it back still have to pay for infrastructure and connection fees, and people who need power would still have to pay for new sources of electricity one way or another.

Buying it at sholesale rates is not necessarily reasonable. If they're producing an excess of solar power, it likely means that the utility doesn't need additional power at that point. It still doesn't cover the cost of the grid, which is required for sending it back to the power company. It doesn't cover all the additional costs of operating a large corporation, even one that is a tightly regulated monopoly.

Just ask yourself how sustainable it would be if every ratepayer had solar panels and expected to sell power back whenever the sun was shining. Sell it to whom??

The difference between wholesale and retail prices is definitely intended to cover "all the additional costs of operating a large corporation" and they manage to be very profitable too.

I think it would be great if every ratepayer had solar panels, but there are certainly ways to deal with net metering if that situation arises. MD for example, has a cap on net metering for now. Also DOE expects batteries to be an increasing source of electricity for the grid in the future, which might make residential solar even more attractive. The possibility that we might have to adapt net metering policies in the future if residential solar became widespread would just mean net metering was a success, not that we should avoid adopting it today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:90% it’s status and virtue signaling. And I’m an environmentalist. Most people who own EV fly enough that their commute is noise (esp in new WFH paradigm)

Relative to combustion engines, EVs are a significant improvement with respect to CO2 emissions. The analysis below includes emissions from production:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867#:~:text=The%20total%20life%2Dcycle%20emissions,to%20internal%20combustion%20engine%20vehicles.&text=Modern%20battery%20recycling%20techniques%20can,about%2060%20%25%20to%2065%20%25.

So no, an EV isn't virtue signaling. EVs are a good step forward in our efforts to reduce emissions.

Find me a different, more efficient way to get across the world when my boss sends me or when I visit family, and I will choose not to fly. I have options with my car, so I take them.

Sorry for living in the world as it is and trying my best. I guess unless you can be perfect, why bother because it is just "virtue signaling."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

I don't think this metaphor completely holds up. For one, people with solar pay for connection to the distribution network regardless of whether they're running a net surplus of electricity. (In months when we make more electricity than we consume, our bill is still around $14 or $15, specifically to cover all the stuff you're talking about.) For another, they also pay per kWh for the electricity they use when the sun is not shining... the same as everyone else does. And unlike some random ball of dough that a pizza customer presents a server with at the end of a meal, electricity that comes from distributed solar generation isn't, like, secondhand and of questionable quality -- utilities count on being able to send less power into the grid during sunny periods because they know home solar installations will be putting some in.

Unless I've been misreading my bill, Pepco pays a wholesale rate for electricity it buys from us, and we pay a retail rate for electricity we buy from them, plus also separate fees for connection to the grid. Seems reasonable to me. Why do you think it would be more fair for surplus electricity generated by systems people spend a lot of money to install to just get sent back into the grid for no compensation at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

I must be very stupid because I cannot make any sense of this. Posting because I do want to understand but I just do not.

[Anonymous]

Wife just bought a Mustang Mach e. She didn't want to go to gas stations anymore and liked the acceleration and look of it. We would take a medium distance trip in it, but wouldn't drive it down to florida. One EV is good, but I wouldn't have both our cars be EVs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean there are also reasons to buy an EV that have nothing to do with the environment. I've gotten poop, gum, spit and other disgusting things on my hands using gas pumps. I just charge my EV at home so that doesn't happen with that car.

Yeah, one of the biggest reasons I got an EV was I got solar on my roof and was running a credit every month. Pepco won't refund you the difference and I needed a new car anyway so it was win-win. I got a Model 3 and any other car I was looking at was going to be in that price range anyway, this way I get free "gas" and loads better acceleration than anything else in that price range. The environmental benefits are great but I'd have done it for the financial and performance benefits alone.

Pepco won't refund overages? When we installed solar in ~2015 they did in DC. We no longer own that home, but that is news to me.

Thought exercise. Try going to your favorite pizza restaurant. Order a large pizza and maybe a bottle of wine.

While you're waiting for your food, take out some flour and an egg and some water and yeast and start rolling some dough on your table. When your pizza comes, tell the server that you want to send the dough you just made back to the kitchen so that they can use it for the next customer, and you would like the dough that you provided to be credited to you on your check.

This is what people who expect solar net metering are essentially demanding from a business. It is something that was very popular in the very early years, and everyone *loved* to talk about it. "I'm selling my excess power BACK to the utility!!"

Sure, and you're also requiring all the people who don't have solar to subsidize your use of the distribution network, the substations (all the grid stuff) and your use of electricity when the sun is not shining. It's completely unsustainable from a basic costing perspective, and I would try to explain this for years and tell people that it would not last, and nobody wanted to hear it.

/rant

I don't think this metaphor completely holds up. For one, people with solar pay for connection to the distribution network regardless of whether they're running a net surplus of electricity. (In months when we make more electricity than we consume, our bill is still around $14 or $15, specifically to cover all the stuff you're talking about.) For another, they also pay per kWh for the electricity they use when the sun is not shining... the same as everyone else does. And unlike some random ball of dough that a pizza customer presents a server with at the end of a meal, electricity that comes from distributed solar generation isn't, like, secondhand and of questionable quality -- utilities count on being able to send less power into the grid during sunny periods because they know home solar installations will be putting some in.

Unless I've been misreading my bill, Pepco pays a wholesale rate for electricity it buys from us, and we pay a retail rate for electricity we buy from them, plus also separate fees for connection to the grid. Seems reasonable to me. Why do you think it would be more fair for surplus electricity generated by systems people spend a lot of money to install to just get sent back into the grid for no compensation at all?

If you are in MD, you get retail rate back on your Solar not wholesale. Solar customers are being subsidized by the rest of the rate payers. This is a fact. It’ll run as long as Solar is a very small percent. Once in increases, look at California for example, electricity becomes very cheap during the day and spikes in the evenings when solar stops producing. You either need to have a battery attached to take advatange of this time of use rate or just settle for a fair price for your solar.