Post-ATS Education - Middle and High School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

The modified calendar was at Barcroft.

But I otherwise generally agree with your sentiment. The problem with IB, however, is the expense. If APS wants to commit to making every HS an IB school, then that's one thing. But as long as a small %age of students opt to take the program (full-time), that's a program that makes more fiscal sense to retain at one location. It requires specially trained teachers, actual in-person teachers for languages, and a yearly fee to the IB organization of about $10K.

The main take-away from ATS that's needed at every school is high expectations and some degree of structure. All elementary schools should also be using the same curriculum and instructional methods. APS says they are; but that's not completely accurate.

So each school bus that is unnecessary (from bussing walkers to a different school for "equity") is around 90k. I live in the Innovation walk zone but am bussed to asfs. For my neighborhood (all of which is in the innovation walk zone), there are 7 buses. That's over 500k that is being spent unnecessarily because they didn't want to bus Rosslyn to Long Branch or Taylor (those kids are already on a bus to innovation, but it would be a longer bus ride to another school). I'm glad we stayed at asfs personally because we were looking to buy a house in the neighborhood around there, so I'm not complaining because I care or because I think when they revise boundaries they should move us to save money. In fact I think people would be really upset if they moved us to innovation at this point since starting over with an entirely new community at asfs was hard this year after coming back from the pandemic for most of the neighborhood kids and the idea of doing it again in two years is slightly ridiculous. But, hearing you complain about 10k for a reputable IB program when you compare it with things like how much money is spent bussing people for the sake of bussing them is slightly ridiculous. To put it in perspective, I think one of those videos APS puts out to pat itself on the back (the back to school videos, etc) are probably 10k. This is in the noise!

First of all, I wasn't complaining. I was just offering a perspective as to why keeping some programs at select locations might make sense.
Second of all, I understand what so many people on these complaint boards apparently can't - that it's not actually possible to balance enrollment systemwide at all the neighborhood schools without some students going to a school that isn't the absolute closest to their home. So sometimes what seems like a wasted and unnecessary bus really isn't. ASFS/Key now Innovation have always been a mess in terms of walking to the neighborhood school. And you seem to think it's fine for others' kids to have unnecessarily long bus rides so yours doesn't get bussed at all because you can walk to a different school. And, even your reasoning suggests they aren't just bussing for the sake of bussing, as if they redistricted you now it would be hard on the kids because of the "community" factor. Well, other kids have "community factors" too. People like you just can't see how the things in your own school/neighborhood/area impact things in others' school/neighborhood/area. That's why APS makes these decisions and not individual neighborhoods or parent groups. Unfortunately, APS listens too much to neighborhoods and parent groups when making their decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

The modified calendar was at Barcroft.

But I otherwise generally agree with your sentiment. The problem with IB, however, is the expense. If APS wants to commit to making every HS an IB school, then that's one thing. But as long as a small %age of students opt to take the program (full-time), that's a program that makes more fiscal sense to retain at one location. It requires specially trained teachers, actual in-person teachers for languages, and a yearly fee to the IB organization of about $10K.

The main take-away from ATS that's needed at every school is high expectations and some degree of structure. All elementary schools should also be using the same curriculum and instructional methods. APS says they are; but that's not completely accurate.

So each school bus that is unnecessary (from bussing walkers to a different school for "equity") is around 90k. I live in the Innovation walk zone but am bussed to asfs. For my neighborhood (all of which is in the innovation walk zone), there are 7 buses. That's over 500k that is being spent unnecessarily because they didn't want to bus Rosslyn to Long Branch or Taylor (those kids are already on a bus to innovation, but it would be a longer bus ride to another school). I'm glad we stayed at asfs personally because we were looking to buy a house in the neighborhood around there, so I'm not complaining because I care or because I think when they revise boundaries they should move us to save money. In fact I think people would be really upset if they moved us to innovation at this point since starting over with an entirely new community at asfs was hard this year after coming back from the pandemic for most of the neighborhood kids and the idea of doing it again in two years is slightly ridiculous. But, hearing you complain about 10k for a reputable IB program when you compare it with things like how much money is spent bussing people for the sake of bussing them is slightly ridiculous. To put it in perspective, I think one of those videos APS puts out to pat itself on the back (the back to school videos, etc) are probably 10k. This is in the noise!

First of all, I wasn't complaining. I was just offering a perspective as to why keeping some programs at select locations might make sense.
Second of all, I understand what so many people on these complaint boards apparently can't - that it's not actually possible to balance enrollment systemwide at all the neighborhood schools without some students going to a school that isn't the absolute closest to their home. So sometimes what seems like a wasted and unnecessary bus really isn't. ASFS/Key now Innovation have always been a mess in terms of walking to the neighborhood school. And you seem to think it's fine for others' kids to have unnecessarily long bus rides so yours doesn't get bussed at all because you can walk to a different school. And, even your reasoning suggests they aren't just bussing for the sake of bussing, as if they redistricted you now it would be hard on the kids because of the "community" factor. Well, other kids have "community factors" too. People like you just can't see how the things in your own school/neighborhood/area impact things in others' school/neighborhood/area. That's why APS makes these decisions and not individual neighborhoods or parent groups. Unfortunately, APS listens too much to neighborhoods and parent groups when making their decisions.

I forgot to point out that you're not considering the additional costs beyond the $10K yearly fee to have IB at every high school, including the availability and cost of hiring IB certified teachers; paying for their on-going IB training; and how many extra staff you would need relative to the # of students at any given school. Again, as I suggested originally, if you want to make every high school an IB school then that's fine. Make the investment. But if you don't and you're only going to accommodate a few hundred or so full-time IB students, then it does not make fiscal sense to certify every school as an IB school and provide specialized staff for relatively few students at each school v. a larger # of students at one school.

It's expensive to run special programs. It's even more expensive to run duplicate special programs at every school - all for the sake of not running a few extra buses. Whereas, busing students from different neighborhoods to various schools actually serves a worthy purpose to help de-segregate our schools. But of course, that's not what you're interested in. You think it's more important to have every student who can, walk to the closest school; unless it disrupts the kids' community after a few hard years of previous disruption.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If Montessori/Traditional/immersion/anything else have proven value then implement it though out the system. Stop making everyone pay for niche programs that include bussing costs.

I think there are some aspects of various programs that are universally beneficial and should be implemented in the "standard" curriculum/instruction/school. But I also believe some programs that are truly intrinsically different such as immersion and Montessori are not suited to all students. I don't think it would make sense to imbed those programs separately in each school for those they do serve; and they would not suit all/most students in the school, and how would you incorporate them anyway?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of my kids did IB in high school, and it is a great program with research showing that it prepares kids for college better than AP classes. But the IB diploma coursework is only for the last two years of HS. Most kids getting an IB diploma in Arlington, which has the highest pass rate in the state, didn't go to IB for ES and MS. I can see how allowing those programs to peter out might make sense.

Another perspective:
Since very few students actually graduate with an IB diploma each year, perhaps letting IB peter out entirely makes sense. Just incorporate the aspects of IB (primarily writing) that are weak or missing in the regular program into the general APS instruction and curriculum. That way, everyone can benefit from a better education and better preparation for college.

Alternatively, the only reason most graduating with IB didn't have it at the ES or MS level is because the majority of students who have had it earlier are not districted to the the high school with the IB program. Maybe there would be more students in full-time IB and graduating with an IB diploma if those elementary and middle years students had the access to the high school program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

ATS approach should be across the system. Montessori should be eliminated or restricted only to FRL-eligible families who would never be able to afford private Montessori.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

Nobody was transferring to Barcroft for the calendar. A handful of people would opt-out and go to Randolph, or Barrett, depending on when they were there. Both of which are very nearby and, btw, for which APS did not provide transportation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS works because it is a self-selected group of kids.

ATS works because it is protected from kids who enroll after the first day of school, the second day of school, the 3rd month of school. When you have fewer disruptions to your student body, the environment is more controlled. They are protected from people who move into the county in the middle of the school year.

If all schools could control enrollment that way, life would be different. I think it's a testament to Arlington schools how well they manage and integrate kids who come in after the deadlines and learn.

This, plus parents who pay enough attention to deadlines and school communication to actually apply

How about teachers and administration with good communication so parents know what's going on when and when deadlines are for what? School communication can be sub-par. It's not always the parents' (or even the kids') fault.

Aspects of ATS' approach would still be effective in other schools without the self-selected parents. It isn't the opting-in that makes ATS work. But it is true that ATS has been able to select its students and parents to some extent by exclusion, especially by excluding special needs students and students who are "too much" for ATS to handle -- whether directly, or by "encouraging" their withdrawal.

Lmao is it tho?

more so in years past than in more recent times

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

The modified calendar was at Barcroft.

But I otherwise generally agree with your sentiment. The problem with IB, however, is the expense. If APS wants to commit to making every HS an IB school, then that's one thing. But as long as a small %age of students opt to take the program (full-time), that's a program that makes more fiscal sense to retain at one location. It requires specially trained teachers, actual in-person teachers for languages, and a yearly fee to the IB organization of about $10K.

The main take-away from ATS that's needed at every school is high expectations and some degree of structure. All elementary schools should also be using the same curriculum and instructional methods. APS says they are; but that's not completely accurate.

So each school bus that is unnecessary (from bussing walkers to a different school for "equity") is around 90k. I live in the Innovation walk zone but am bussed to asfs. For my neighborhood (all of which is in the innovation walk zone), there are 7 buses. That's over 500k that is being spent unnecessarily because they didn't want to bus Rosslyn to Long Branch or Taylor (those kids are already on a bus to innovation, but it would be a longer bus ride to another school). I'm glad we stayed at asfs personally because we were looking to buy a house in the neighborhood around there, so I'm not complaining because I care or because I think when they revise boundaries they should move us to save money. In fact I think people would be really upset if they moved us to innovation at this point since starting over with an entirely new community at asfs was hard this year after coming back from the pandemic for most of the neighborhood kids and the idea of doing it again in two years is slightly ridiculous. But, hearing you complain about 10k for a reputable IB program when you compare it with things like how much money is spent bussing people for the sake of bussing them is slightly ridiculous. To put it in perspective, I think one of those videos APS puts out to pat itself on the back (the back to school videos, etc) are probably 10k. This is in the noise!

First of all, I wasn't complaining. I was just offering a perspective as to why keeping some programs at select locations might make sense.
Second of all, I understand what so many people on these complaint boards apparently can't - that it's not actually possible to balance enrollment systemwide at all the neighborhood schools without some students going to a school that isn't the absolute closest to their home. So sometimes what seems like a wasted and unnecessary bus really isn't. ASFS/Key now Innovation have always been a mess in terms of walking to the neighborhood school. And you seem to think it's fine for others' kids to have unnecessarily long bus rides so yours doesn't get bussed at all because you can walk to a different school. And, even your reasoning suggests they aren't just bussing for the sake of bussing, as if they redistricted you now it would be hard on the kids because of the "community" factor. Well, other kids have "community factors" too. People like you just can't see how the things in your own school/neighborhood/area impact things in others' school/neighborhood/area. That's why APS makes these decisions and not individual neighborhoods or parent groups. Unfortunately, APS listens too much to neighborhoods and parent groups when making their decisions.

So this is an example of how people shouldn’t talk about things they don’t know.
There are over 200 kids in my neighborhood that can walk to innovation. My neighborhood was the only part of Asfs to stay at asfs this year. Instead of allowing us to walk to school (less than 500 ft for over 100 kids btw, it is literally across the street), we are bussed to asfs. Conversely, parts of Rosslyn that are 0.9 miles from innovation and 1.2 miles from asfs respectively are bussed to innovation because of a desire to maintain a contiguous boundary and because they didn’t like the optics of bussing them past a school to another one. So instead of giving those kids a two minute longer bus ride, they are spending over a half a million dollars in bussing. They also didn’t just move everyone from asfs to innovation because the school was projected to open over capacity. It opened at under 2/3rds capacity (less than 400 kids)! There is no way you can objectively look at this situation and say that this was well planned.

Now the damage has been done, I am not ok with my second grader having to switch school communities again because aps screwed up. When school started, we figured out that there were no kids from asfs in her class. Literally not a single one. According to other parents, there are only a handful in each other class, the school is mostly kids who came from taylor and Ashlawn. So no I’m not ok with her having to move communities again because aps screwed up. You cannot look at this objectively and say this is best for the county! It’s so badly managed!

[Anonymous]

Turns out, kids don’t really care/remember about their elementary school friends. They grow and change. Appreciate old their little kid friends and also make new ones!!!!! It’s remarkable!!!! They can make new friends past the age of 6, 8, 12!!!!!

Check that out. How many from your 2nd grade class are you devastated to not know?

[Anonymous]

Most kids just go to their neighborhood schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

ATS approach should be across the system. Montessori should be eliminated or restricted only to FRL-eligible families who would never be able to afford private Montessori.

No. The ATS approach is fine for those who want it, but most parents don’t. ATS “works” because it’s a self selecting group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Turns out, kids don’t really care/remember about their elementary school friends. They grow and change. Appreciate old their little kid friends and also make new ones!!!!! It’s remarkable!!!! They can make new friends past the age of 6, 8, 12!!!!!

Check that out. How many from your 2nd grade class are you devastated to not know?

I agree with you but in this particular case, she has to make all new friends in 2nd grade, and then if they try to correct this mistake at the next boundary change, then she will have to make all new friends in fourth grade too. It’s not fair. This is what that “stability” criteria was geared towards

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

ATS approach should be across the system. Montessori should be eliminated or restricted only to FRL-eligible families who would never be able to afford private Montessori.

No. The ATS approach is fine for those who want it, but most parents don’t. ATS “works” because it’s a self selecting group.

This is stupid logic. The parents aren't the ones in school. It doesn't matter what the parents *want.* It matters what works for the kids.
ATS' approach "worked" for decades. It became "ATS" option program because it rebuked the open classroom fad that was taking place, enabling some families to escape the trend. There is nothing special about ATS or its instructional approach. The self-selection merely brings a lot of over-anxious parents together into the same school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Turns out, kids don’t really care/remember about their elementary school friends. They grow and change. Appreciate old their little kid friends and also make new ones!!!!! It’s remarkable!!!! They can make new friends past the age of 6, 8, 12!!!!!

Check that out. How many from your 2nd grade class are you devastated to not know?

I agree with you but in this particular case, she has to make all new friends in 2nd grade, and then if they try to correct this mistake at the next boundary change, then she will have to make all new friends in fourth grade too. It’s not fair. This is what that “stability” criteria was geared towards

Wouldn't she be rejoining classmates previously at ASFS but districted to Innovation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a question of picking apart any one program, but rather looking at what works and implementing it system-wide, to the extent possible. If Montessori is so amazing, then why is it so limited? If ATS has an ideal learning environment, why is it only at one school?

They just eliminated the year-round program at Carlin Springs because of cost, why don’t they look at other programs for lessons learned and stop all of this inter-county transfer nonsense.

The modified calendar was at Barcroft.

But I otherwise generally agree with your sentiment. The problem with IB, however, is the expense. If APS wants to commit to making every HS an IB school, then that's one thing. But as long as a small %age of students opt to take the program (full-time), that's a program that makes more fiscal sense to retain at one location. It requires specially trained teachers, actual in-person teachers for languages, and a yearly fee to the IB organization of about $10K.

The main take-away from ATS that's needed at every school is high expectations and some degree of structure. All elementary schools should also be using the same curriculum and instructional methods. APS says they are; but that's not completely accurate.

So each school bus that is unnecessary (from bussing walkers to a different school for "equity") is around 90k. I live in the Innovation walk zone but am bussed to asfs. For my neighborhood (all of which is in the innovation walk zone), there are 7 buses. That's over 500k that is being spent unnecessarily because they didn't want to bus Rosslyn to Long Branch or Taylor (those kids are already on a bus to innovation, but it would be a longer bus ride to another school). I'm glad we stayed at asfs personally because we were looking to buy a house in the neighborhood around there, so I'm not complaining because I care or because I think when they revise boundaries they should move us to save money. In fact I think people would be really upset if they moved us to innovation at this point since starting over with an entirely new community at asfs was hard this year after coming back from the pandemic for most of the neighborhood kids and the idea of doing it again in two years is slightly ridiculous. But, hearing you complain about 10k for a reputable IB program when you compare it with things like how much money is spent bussing people for the sake of bussing them is slightly ridiculous. To put it in perspective, I think one of those videos APS puts out to pat itself on the back (the back to school videos, etc) are probably 10k. This is in the noise!

First of all, I wasn't complaining. I was just offering a perspective as to why keeping some programs at select locations might make sense.
Second of all, I understand what so many people on these complaint boards apparently can't - that it's not actually possible to balance enrollment systemwide at all the neighborhood schools without some students going to a school that isn't the absolute closest to their home. So sometimes what seems like a wasted and unnecessary bus really isn't. ASFS/Key now Innovation have always been a mess in terms of walking to the neighborhood school. And you seem to think it's fine for others' kids to have unnecessarily long bus rides so yours doesn't get bussed at all because you can walk to a different school. And, even your reasoning suggests they aren't just bussing for the sake of bussing, as if they redistricted you now it would be hard on the kids because of the "community" factor. Well, other kids have "community factors" too. People like you just can't see how the things in your own school/neighborhood/area impact things in others' school/neighborhood/area. That's why APS makes these decisions and not individual neighborhoods or parent groups. Unfortunately, APS listens too much to neighborhoods and parent groups when making their decisions.

So this is an example of how people shouldn’t talk about things they don’t know.
There are over 200 kids in my neighborhood that can walk to innovation. My neighborhood was the only part of Asfs to stay at asfs this year. Instead of allowing us to walk to school (less than 500 ft for over 100 kids btw, it is literally across the street), we are bussed to asfs. Conversely, parts of Rosslyn that are 0.9 miles from innovation and 1.2 miles from asfs respectively are bussed to innovation because of a desire to maintain a contiguous boundary and because they didn’t like the optics of bussing them past a school to another one. So instead of giving those kids a two minute longer bus ride, they are spending over a half a million dollars in bussing. They also didn’t just move everyone from asfs to innovation because the school was projected to open over capacity. It opened at under 2/3rds capacity (less than 400 kids)! There is no way you can objectively look at this situation and say that this was well planned.

Now the damage has been done, I am not ok with my second grader having to switch school communities again because aps screwed up. When school started, we figured out that there were no kids from asfs in her class. Literally not a single one. According to other parents, there are only a handful in each other class, the school is mostly kids who came from taylor and Ashlawn. So no I’m not ok with her having to move communities again because aps screwed up. You cannot look at this objectively and say this is best for the county! It’s so badly managed!

So, your kid doesn't know anyone among the TWO HUNDRED students in your neighborhood that remained districted to ASFS?
And, they wouldn't know anyone at Innovation even though you're the only neighborhood that remained at ASFS, which suggests everyone else went to Innovation?
And you're still arguing it's ok to send other kids past a school to another one on a bus, but not yours, or are you arguing your child should be bused further to Innovation and the Rosslyn kids should be bussed further to ASFS?
Every way I look at what you're saying, it seems to be all about you and your child and what you think APS' decisions should have been.

APS purposely (and rightfully, IMO) opens "new" schools and leaves space at schools if possible during re-districting to allow for growth. Also, in this case, they had no real way of knowing for sure how many students from the area would continue with immersion at the new location and therefore it was particularly difficult to know how many students would really show up at each school. And with the disaster of last year and many people opting out of APS, moving, going private, staying virtual, expected enrollment across the system is anyone's guess.