On the chopping block: AAP Centers

[Anonymous]

We have 3 DCs. All in AAP. One is profoundly gifted. IOW, odd, quirky, speaks like an Ivy League English professor. Extremely adult-more mature than most adults-conversations. Extremely quiet, shy,reserved except when around her friends. 3rd grade aap teacher gave her 2s in oral communication. Really? Teacher didn't understand DD. Only 2 she ever received because she was shy and quiet and reserved. 4th grade aap teacher got her. She had a child like DD and understood her. Not all aap teachers understand the odd gifted student. Most aap teachers understand the hardworking kids, but not the gifted ones. MS aap teachers are better!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else get tired of the same old arguments for and against AAP over and over and over again?

Absolutely.

This madness is posted here continuously, and has been for at least eight years.

It seems that there are things we can all think about as we participate in this forum:

(1) Some people really like AAP. They aren't going to stop liking it b/c non-AAP kids/parents feel left out or second-class.

(2) Some people really don't like AAP and want it to end.

(3) Right now, AAP exists and will continue to exist for the coming school year.

(4) None of the people on this board have the power to end or change AAP. We all have the power to influence the school board or to vote for candidate that support our positions, but no one here can directly change the structure of the AAP program.


These on-going arguments just never end. It's like Democrats trying to convince Republicans to change sides or vice versa. We all have our own data points that influence our positions far more than any post on an anonymous site ever could. I'm not intending to shut down all discussions -- but, gosh, can we think about whether there is any useful purpose to re-hashing this over and over and over again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not intending to shut down all discussions -- but, gosh, can we think about whether there is any useful purpose to re-hashing this over and over and over again?

Preach!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, or whatever, but if you don't have a gifted child or work with gifted kids, you really aren't in a position to dictate what gifted kids need. Truly gifted kids do have special social, emotional, and educational needs that are not met in a Gen Ed classroom.

I am the parent of two gifted children and this is BS. Some gifted children have special social and emotional needs, just like the rest of the population. THis is snowflake thinking.

Then your DCs are smart, not gifted. There is a difference, and, yes, AAP screening has trouble making the distinction.

Agree with pp. Gifted kids have specific social and emotional issues related to just that - being gifted. You would understand if your kid was gifted. Everyone wants their kids to be "gifted" but I can tell you it's not a walk in the park. It's tough to watch your kid struggle with these issues just like those struggling with a kid that has LDs.

Kids can be extremely mean to gifted kids when they are younger (before app starts).

So glad that I grew up and had kids before this nonsense fully took hold in FCPS. Kids can be mean to each other, period. I was 99th percentile on just about every test, went to the Governor's School for the Gifted one summer, double Ivy, millionaire by 30s. And blessedly spared from any of this nonsense that I was so unique that I had to be in special programs away from the common kids, lest they call me an egghead or a bookworm. It teaches you essential social skills and how to recognize the non-academic strengths of other kids. The current generation is deprived of so much of this because their helicopter parents are absurdly over-protective, insecure and prejudiced. This endless prattle about the special needs of gifted kids would be amusing were it not so offensive and, ultimately, damaging. Your kids will be better off in the long run if they learn how to get along with other children, rather than being hustled off to a "special" classroom because Mommy wants to keep them away from the riff-raff.

If you were truly gifted, just as kids that have severe LDs, a different teaching environment for academic classes would have been beneficial. These truly gifted kids don't need different classes to avoid being called an egghead or bookworm. You really don't get it and that's okay.

They don't live in a bubble with other outside interaction just because they are in different academic classes for 4-5 hours out of their school day. They learn social skills and how to recognize non-academic strengths in the center schools (both within their academic classrooms and in the mixed classes/times - art, PE, lunch, after school activities, SACC, etc.)

Do you think all travel and high-level sports teams are detrimental to the kids participating because they aren't THAT unique. Not enough to benefit from a higher, more intense level of instruction than the average kid. As you said, kids need to be recognized for their non-academic strengths, so why can't kids ALSO be recognized for their academic strengths. Do you think those kids can't take the reality that some kids are more advanced intellectually and academically?

I don't even get your statement about helicopter parents. I'm about as far away from being a helicopter parent as you get. Over-protective, insecure, and prejudice?? Yikes - I think you missed your morning coffee!! I'm definitely not over-protective, but when a teacher leans into my 1st graders face, when I'm standing right there, and says "You're so frustrating!" while shaking her hands at her, I will draw the line and step in. Otherwise, the teachers don't hear from me unless they need something. Not even sure how to address insecure. You'd have to explain why you think this. And who am I prejudiced against? wha-what??

Your final comments just highlight your ignorance and prejudice against gifted kids. You do know that they spend a good portion of their school day with kids in the gen ed classes at the centers. They spend art, PE, lunch, and music mixed with gen ed. My kids are also in SACC and afterschool activities, in addition to city and private sports/clubs. So, can you re-explain how I'm shuttling my gifted kid away from the "riff-raff?" Oh, and let's not forget my gifted kid's sibling that is not in aap! Maybe I should start limiting their time together so I can live up to your stereotype!

[Anonymous]

Apparently "truly" gifted means they are smart AND have social issues and emotional problems. Apparently, a child who does not have these issues is not "truly" gifted. Cue the anecdotal defense squad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Apparently "truly" gifted means they are smart AND have social issues and emotional problems. Apparently, a child who does not have these issues is not "truly" gifted. Cue the anecdotal defense squad.

Asked and answered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Apparently "truly" gifted means they are smart AND have social issues and emotional problems. Apparently, a child who does not have these issues is not "truly" gifted. Cue the anecdotal defense squad.

You have poor comprehension skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently "truly" gifted means they are smart AND have social issues and emotional problems. Apparently, a child who does not have these issues is not "truly" gifted. Cue the anecdotal defense squad.

You have poor comprehension skills.

See below. Emphasis mine.

From 8:16/12:37

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to be snarky, or whatever, but if you don't have a gifted child or work with gifted kids, you really aren't in a position to dictate what gifted kids need. Truly gifted kids do have special social, emotional, and educational needs that are not met in a Gen Ed classroom.

I am the parent of two gifted children and this is BS. Some gifted children have special social and emotional needs, just like the rest of the population. THis is snowflake thinking.

Then your DCs are smart, not gifted. There is a difference, and, yes, AAP screening has trouble making the distinction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think instead of chopping AAP centers, the local school level III, II, I should be chopped.. Does high school have AAP centers ? . We have so many AAP teachers scattered in all the these base schools , which is waste of money.

All the AAP center school could really have truly gifted students thats it end of the story. only top 1-5 % from all base schools, with emphasis on STEM.. These could be like mini TJ schools, which cater to the truly gifted..

"Truly gifted" kids in most other jurisdictions aren't shipped off to centers and do just fine. Centers should be cut and the teachers can differentiate as appropriate for the gifted kids. Fairfax County has become this crazy place where people think that without AAP and TJ kids will be total failures. I'm not sure how people from other parts of the country manage to get jobs without AAP and TJ. And before I get accused of being a bitter parent whose kids didn't get into AAP, I have two kids in AAP. I think centers are completely unnecessary, and the focus should be on improving the academics at the base schools. My kids' base school has no level IV, and does a poor job differentiating in the gen ed classrooms, so I send my kids to the center. I would way prefer a better gen ed curriculum at the base school than busing them to a center. Unfortunately the AAP craziness is too engrained in FCPS so centers aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

You are so right. People use the excuse that families will leave FCPS if centers are cut. That's just not the case. People will adjust just fine, just as they have to other changes FCPS has made. Most will stay and insist FCPS get its act together and improve the curriculum for all students, which would be a huge accomplishment.

And what happens to the truly 1-3%-ers that most likely won't get what they need from teachers trying to differentiate in a gen ed classroom? These kids are just as much in need of special ed as the other ed of the special ed spectrum. The base schools don't seem to be able to deliver that service even in our base school that offers LIV services.

You do what we do. Supplement supplement supplement. We have a child who is in the 1% AND has LDs and a few other things. Don't be so quick to ask for special ed designation. It isn't what you think it is. If you think the law is the floor for services, think again. It is the ceiling. BTDTGTT and the PTSD.

My DD is in the top 1% and she deserves an education just like every otter kid. We do supplement but why should my child sit for 8 hours a day waiting for your child to "get" a concept in order to move on to more material. She's been told she can't ask the questions she wants to ask and have conversations with the teachers about the material being covered because they are too busy with the rest of the class. So, she brings in books to read and that's what the majority of her day consisted of before 3rd grade. It is a ridiculous waste of her time and a huge frustration to the teachers.

I have another child that is too young for aap, but I don't think he will need it. He's a smart kid and a hard worker, but learns very traditionally and the classes have been great for him so far. Maybe because I have two kids that are very different in the way and speed that they learn and how they comprehend material, I see the real need for "something else" for kids like her. If they cut the centers I hope that they figure out a way to create the atmosphere and teaching style that we currently see in our center.

Sorry your snowflake would have to sit there all day while slower kids get the concept. Poor baby. I have a dyslexic child (who, by the way, scores in the superior range on IQ tests). The school hasn't even bothered to teach her to read. I had to pay $1000 per month for outside tutoring -- and she has a reading disability recognized by federal law and required to be remediated under the IDEA. If you think your child might be bored and need special ed, then you can pay to get outside help like the rest of the special ed parents. Ask virtually any parent of a child with dyslexia, we all pay for outside help.

This isn't true in our base school. There are services for kids with dyslexia and a host of other LDs. What county are you in? We've only been in Fairfax and my neighbors/friends' kids with LDs are getting amazing services from what they tell me. Not sure why your child isn't getting what she needs, but that's no reason to "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" MY kid isn't getting what she needs at school so YOUR kid shouldn't either. That's ridiculous. This thread was about cutting app centers and for one of my children I think it would be disastrous. That is what I have been commenting about.

My child doesn't have any learning disabilities, but gen ed doesn't serve her, her teachers, or the other students any good. She goes so fast and in depth that the teachers can't keep up with her and teach the regular curriculum. I stated before i have another child who is bright but not gifted. I wouldn't want a child like my DD in a class with my youngest. They learn at very different speeds and in very different ways.

He followed the traditional path in learning to read. She just started reading all on her own at 3. Chapter books by early 4 (ex. judy blume). Doing double digit multiplication and division in her head at 4 and 5. She's not a genius, but she only needs to see most concepts once and she gets it. The repetition in gen ed kills her so she draws, reads, or tries talking to the teacher or classmates about anything and everything (which is not reasonable in a classroom every day.)

Why should my daughter go to school every day and just sit there? That's what happened in first and most of second grade. The first grade teacher actually thought she should fail first grade because she wasn't doing the work in class (there was almost no homework so that wasn't an issue). She would do some of the assignment, get bored and start doing something else. I don't blame her. Would you like to sit at a desk for 6 hours/day and do worksheet after worksheet of single-digit addition and writing out simple sentences. I wouldn't so why should she when she's well past that.

There are a host of social issues because these kids are not her peers academically, so playing games, working on assignments together, etc are really tough. Again, I wouldn't want to repeatedly play a game that wasn't challenging at all.

Your child deserves the support and services that she needs just like my child. In my case the service exists and is in jeopardy of being taken away. I hope that doesn't happen. My DD falls into a category of gifted kids that statistically drop out of school and abuse drugs/alcohol if they don't remain engaged and challenged in school. I'm not sure how I'm not supposed to worry about this.

I hope your child gets the services that she deserves because I do believe that all kids deserve to get a proper education.

I'm the poster you quote. I know many dyslexic kids that are not getting what they need. The ones who are very bright can fake it very well, so they are "at grade level" and don't get services. These are kids who are capable of much more, yet everyone is content to get them to the 35th percentile and call it a day (regardless of IQ scores in the 90+ percentile). I agree that all kids should get a proper education, but it's not happening for many kids (like mine). Trust me, if they eliminate the service, you'll supplement (like the parents of dyslexic kids do). I hope for your sake they don't eliminate it but please understand how lucky you are that the district is actually serving your child.

[Anonymous]

So are they going to get rid of these stupid centers and just have the kids stay in the schools the house taxes paid for?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So are they going to get rid of these stupid centers and just have the kids stay in the schools the house taxes paid for?

The "house taxes" don't go to any particular school. They go into a big pot for the county. FCPS schools don;t get the particular dollars that the people in their base district pay. It's one big budget.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think instead of chopping AAP centers, the local school level III, II, I should be chopped.. Does high school have AAP centers ? . We have so many AAP teachers scattered in all the these base schools , which is waste of money.

All the AAP center school could really have truly gifted students thats it end of the story. only top 1-5 % from all base schools, with emphasis on STEM.. These could be like mini TJ schools, which cater to the truly gifted..

"Truly gifted" kids in most other jurisdictions aren't shipped off to centers and do just fine. Centers should be cut and the teachers can differentiate as appropriate for the gifted kids. Fairfax County has become this crazy place where people think that without AAP and TJ kids will be total failures. I'm not sure how people from other parts of the country manage to get jobs without AAP and TJ. And before I get accused of being a bitter parent whose kids didn't get into AAP, I have two kids in AAP. I think centers are completely unnecessary, and the focus should be on improving the academics at the base schools. My kids' base school has no level IV, and does a poor job differentiating in the gen ed classrooms, so I send my kids to the center. I would way prefer a better gen ed curriculum at the base school than busing them to a center. Unfortunately the AAP craziness is too engrained in FCPS so centers aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

You are so right. People use the excuse that families will leave FCPS if centers are cut. That's just not the case. People will adjust just fine, just as they have to other changes FCPS has made. Most will stay and insist FCPS get its act together and improve the curriculum for all students, which would be a huge accomplishment.

And what happens to the truly 1-3%-ers that most likely won't get what they need from teachers trying to differentiate in a gen ed classroom? These kids are just as much in need of special ed as the other ed of the special ed spectrum. The base schools don't seem to be able to deliver that service even in our base school that offers LIV services.

You do what we do. Supplement supplement supplement. We have a child who is in the 1% AND has LDs and a few other things. Don't be so quick to ask for special ed designation. It isn't what you think it is. If you think the law is the floor for services, think again. It is the ceiling. BTDTGTT and the PTSD.

My DD is in the top 1% and she deserves an education just like every otter kid. We do supplement but why should my child sit for 8 hours a day waiting for your child to "get" a concept in order to move on to more material. She's been told she can't ask the questions she wants to ask and have conversations with the teachers about the material being covered because they are too busy with the rest of the class. So, she brings in books to read and that's what the majority of her day consisted of before 3rd grade. It is a ridiculous waste of her time and a huge frustration to the teachers.

I have another child that is too young for aap, but I don't think he will need it. He's a smart kid and a hard worker, but learns very traditionally and the classes have been great for him so far. Maybe because I have two kids that are very different in the way and speed that they learn and how they comprehend material, I see the real need for "something else" for kids like her. If they cut the centers I hope that they figure out a way to create the atmosphere and teaching style that we currently see in our center.

Sorry your snowflake would have to sit there all day while slower kids get the concept. Poor baby. I have a dyslexic child (who, by the way, scores in the superior range on IQ tests). The school hasn't even bothered to teach her to read. I had to pay $1000 per month for outside tutoring -- and she has a reading disability recognized by federal law and required to be remediated under the IDEA. If you think your child might be bored and need special ed, then you can pay to get outside help like the rest of the special ed parents. Ask virtually any parent of a child with dyslexia, we all pay for outside help.

This isn't true in our base school. There are services for kids with dyslexia and a host of other LDs. What county are you in? We've only been in Fairfax and my neighbors/friends' kids with LDs are getting amazing services from what they tell me. Not sure why your child isn't getting what she needs, but that's no reason to "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" MY kid isn't getting what she needs at school so YOUR kid shouldn't either. That's ridiculous. This thread was about cutting app centers and for one of my children I think it would be disastrous. That is what I have been commenting about.

My child doesn't have any learning disabilities, but gen ed doesn't serve her, her teachers, or the other students any good. She goes so fast and in depth that the teachers can't keep up with her and teach the regular curriculum. I stated before i have another child who is bright but not gifted. I wouldn't want a child like my DD in a class with my youngest. They learn at very different speeds and in very different ways.

He followed the traditional path in learning to read. She just started reading all on her own at 3. Chapter books by early 4 (ex. judy blume). Doing double digit multiplication and division in her head at 4 and 5. She's not a genius, but she only needs to see most concepts once and she gets it. The repetition in gen ed kills her so she draws, reads, or tries talking to the teacher or classmates about anything and everything (which is not reasonable in a classroom every day.)

Why should my daughter go to school every day and just sit there? That's what happened in first and most of second grade. The first grade teacher actually thought she should fail first grade because she wasn't doing the work in class (there was almost no homework so that wasn't an issue). She would do some of the assignment, get bored and start doing something else. I don't blame her. Would you like to sit at a desk for 6 hours/day and do worksheet after worksheet of single-digit addition and writing out simple sentences. I wouldn't so why should she when she's well past that.

There are a host of social issues because these kids are not her peers academically, so playing games, working on assignments together, etc are really tough. Again, I wouldn't want to repeatedly play a game that wasn't challenging at all.

Your child deserves the support and services that she needs just like my child. In my case the service exists and is in jeopardy of being taken away. I hope that doesn't happen. My DD falls into a category of gifted kids that statistically drop out of school and abuse drugs/alcohol if they don't remain engaged and challenged in school. I'm not sure how I'm not supposed to worry about this.

I hope your child gets the services that she deserves because I do believe that all kids deserve to get a proper education.

I'm the poster you quote. I know many dyslexic kids that are not getting what they need. The ones who are very bright can fake it very well, so they are "at grade level" and don't get services. These are kids who are capable of much more, yet everyone is content to get them to the 35th percentile and call it a day (regardless of IQ scores in the 90+ percentile). I agree that all kids should get a proper education, but it's not happening for many kids (like mine). Trust me, if they eliminate the service, you'll supplement (like the parents of dyslexic kids do). I hope for your sake they don't eliminate it but please understand how lucky you are that the district is actually serving your child.

I understand how frustrating it is to have a child with an academic need that is not getting filled. As I said before, I'm sorry you child is not getting the services he/she needs and I'm not sure why our schools are providing it and yours is not (particularly if you are in ffx county like me). I hope that at some point they do provide more services because the cost of living here is already too high to impose additional costs that should be covered IMO.

All that being said, I hope that you step back and take a look at your original response to me and understand that parents in my situation (not the majority of the kids in app) have the same concerns that you do with your child. Without this program, I have been told by many professionals that my DD statistically was on a path to drop out of school and become self-destructive.

Your original response was - I'm not getting what I want so you shouldn't either. I appreciate your follow on response and again can appreciate the concern and frustration that you still have over your child's needs not being met. My DH and his brother were severely dyslexic. They received free help through the lions club or one of those types of clubs. Not sure if anything like that stills exists. I wish you the best of luck.

[Anonymous]

AAP is not the same program it used to be and some schools have 30% plus qualifying. Some that are not offered AAP appeal and others do not. So some less qualified appeal and get in.

Shuffling around 30% or more of students in-boundary for schools like Cooper is simply wasteful. 37% of 3-6 is AAP at Spring Hill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good. It's about time. It's a tremendous waste of money and resources.

"Base kid" is a common taunt at our center school.

The AAP students are so segregated and operate in their own rarefied air beginning as young as third grade.

Very much an "us v. them" mentality fueled by hyper-competitive parents.

Enough!

The ugly reality is that FCPS is back to ersatz segregation, with the "elites" getting preferential treatment and in some center schools, "base kids" are the minority.

Interesting to note that some of the FCPS center schools HAD to become centers to avoid permanent closure.

School?

Many Centers were initially used to fill buildings where FCPS was afraid to pursue boundary changes. Here are some set-up on that basis: Kilmer, Forest Edge, Jackson, Riverside.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^But I am the Great Unwashed because I don't live in McLean, Vienna, or Great Falls.

You pay to play

Not the PP, but I live in Vienna/Great Falls/McLean and am definitely "paying". However, my kids aren't in AAP. So I'm not sure what it is my family is getting out of living in this area, since my kids have to attend a center school, yet don't benefit from it at all.

I guess the point is, it really doesn't matter what part of the county you live in; if your kids are in Gen Ed, yet still have to attend a center, it's the worst of all worlds. Whatever happened to the smallish, neighborhood school? Certainly, when we moved to this area, we weren't expecting our kids to have to attend a center. That came to us, after we had been living here for several years. We'd be thrilled if there were no more centers, at least in this part of the county where there is no need for them whatsoever.

The centers aren't needed in your area. At least the AAP doesn't wreak havoc on the class size or staffing like immersion. Stuff like 35 in an English only class and 14 [or even less]in immersion. My kids were at various centers but the worst special program impact I ever heard was from multiple parents at a base school where students were treated like third class citizens.