The Dad Privilege Checklist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yikes.

All the listed work are easy-peasy jobs for me. I prefer doing or outsourcing these to going to work for a paycheck. My DH thinks I am a superwoman just because I deal with everything that does not pertain to his career. This gives him space and bandwidth to become a high earner and give us a good lifestyle.

I prefer that 1) my DH make good money, 2) is loyal, loving and respectful to me, and 3) appreciates me. I do the same for him, except instead of making good money, I give him great return for the money he earns in the sense of building wealth, having a well run household and having kids who excel etc.

This is one of the grossest things I have ever read here, which is impressive.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, all of this is made easier if mom stays home with the children and dad makes more money to compensate. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but most women would feel much less resentment if they dropped work to focus their efforts (when the children are young) on raising them and let their DH work harder to cover the bills.

The problem with this is once upon a time when women stayed home, they viewed their role as "homemaker" and that job description included everything: Care for children, keep the house clean and orderly, fix the meals.

Today's young women define this role as "SAHM" with the emphasis on the "M." They think their duty is only to look after the children during the hours that their husband is working or commuting but that he should immediately step in for 50% on all of the other tasks. They bristle at the "homemaker" label -- basically they are invested in intensive mothering; so, basically, they want to be a nanny or governess to their own children. The rest of the duties that used to be embedded in the role are beneath them and either need to be outsourced or shared equally.

Uh, women did all the childcare and housework 24/7 (including physically caring for their husbands like they were children -- cooking for them, cleaning them, washing their clothes, running their errands, even bathing and grooming them sometimes) because they were oppressed, had no economic power and no political rights, and were viewed as the property of their fathers and husbands. Not because the really "embraced the role" of homemaker. But because if they failed to perform the role, their husbands might abandon them and they were not allowed to do most jobs or own property or have bank accounts, plus rape wasn't even illegal except as a violation of another man's property rights so they'd be very vulnerable.

The good old days. When women would cook and clean and tend to children all day, and then the second their husbands came home, tend to him while continuing to cook and clean until bedtime, while their husbands with "real jobs" replaced after a hard day of work.

Yeah, it's so weird that women today are not eager to return to that set up, I wonder why.

But ... they want a "shell" of that that set-up. They only want the intensive mothering bit. Which is insanely easy. Easiest job ever. So, really, they're just lazy. The ones who continue to do this when their children are in elementary school are the laziest of them all. It would be different if they embraced the actual job description of a homemaker.

But men want the whole set up. They want to go to work and then come home and do nothing. Men expect this whether their wives work outside the home or not. Whether the kids are toddlers or teens. They do not believe that the work of childcare outside their working hours should be evenly divided. EVEN if both people worked all day (whether that work was for pay or unpaid wiping of butts and preparing snacks and all that).

Women who have husbands with this attitude (which is most husbands) are stuck. If they work, they will still be expected to do the majority of childcare/housework outside of work hours. Sometimes this is justified by "I make more money" or "my job is harder" or "I work longer hours." But usually not.

On the other hand, if they SAHM, they may have more time to do all the tasks they will be expected to do anyway. But they are expected to work 24/7, because men like you think being a SAHM is easy. You don't understand what is so hard about childcare that she can't also keep the house perfectly tidy and do all the administrative stuff too. What's she doing all day? No really, you have no idea, having never cared for kids full time. What IS she doing all day? So even if she spends the entire day working, you still expect her to do the vast majority of the after-work childcare/household responsibilities because, after all, she doesn't have a "real job" like you (nevermind if your job actually involves a lot of sitting, downtime, and socializing with colleagues and clients, things that could easily be called easy when compared to the hardest parts of what even a SAHM of school age kids does).

Which is why the only "solution" anyone has ever found to this is outsourcing a lot of the childcare and housework so that the couple can divide what is left. But most families can't afford that.

Is there ANY situation in which you actually believe that a man should do 50% (or more!) of the childcare/housework/household admin? I bet no. That's women's work.

Um, not most men. My father wasn't like this. My husband isn't like this. I know plenty of men who aren't like this.

I also know men who do more than 50% at home because their wives' careers are more intense or they have other issues going on.

It's comments like the ones you're responding to that make these complaints hard to take seriously. We have data; we know what "most men" do. They don't come home and do "nothing" they come home and do less, but they also work more. The issue, if there is one, is about distribution, not that either party is doing "nothing." Overall, we're all doing about the same amount.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:where can i sign up for these privledges

you do realize that if it doesnt apply to you or your husband then you arent the audience of the list?

keep doing what you do.

Do you realize that most of the comments are painting “most” men with the same broad brush? Why wouldn’t any man want to defend the inaccurate stereotypes being foisted upon them for no other reason than gender?

The article says most and a majority/if not all of the comments are about their own husbands.

Have a talk with other men in your life versus defending stereotypes. The data supports a lot of the issues here. Again, glad you are in the minority. Doesnt mean we dont have to address the majority. You want congratulations for being exceptional when we are talking about the fact that what you do should be normal. And its not. Stop being defensive over someone else inadequacies.

So...if some people of X group do Y, then I should just sit back and take it when people accuse me of doing Y because I belong to X group? Do you hear yourself?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Find it here: https://zawn.substack.com/p/the-dad-privilege-checklist

Please read the checklist and return for a conversation about it. I want to hear from others about their own experiences with coparenting their children with the children's dad.

Honestly, this is trope stacked on top of trope and is really some lazy thinking by someone heavily invested in martyred mothering (just note the name of the substack -- "Liberating Motherhood" -- this thing comes at this with an axe to grind and part of the business model is to stoke outrage; it's not dissimilar from right-wing news media like Fox or Newsmax in that regard.) The article itself incredibly lazy thinking that borrows the language of liberation theology for cynical purposes, and I'm going to hazard a guess that the "checklist" is just a crowdsourced list of grievances from women with a similar mindset. In other words, I don't think the author has any original thoughts on the matter.

This is not to say some individual items on the list aren't valid phenomena -- I have definitely been approached by women at the playground when I was out with my toddlers and praised for being a great dad and giving mom a "break," for example, but I've also been approached by women keen on "helping" me because they assumed by these women to be incompetent because I have a penis). So, this isn't really dad "privilege" so much as it is a recounting of various stereotypes that are harmful to both women AND men. It's kind of like the dumb, clueless dad trope you used to see in advertising (and thankfully don't see so much anymore, that ridiculous car commercial where the dad gets the wrong binky notwithstanding).

So, I'm not going to say "not all men." I'm going to say "hardly any men" fit this list of "privilege." (Another co-opted term intended to provoke a response, natch).

Let's just look at the first two:

I know that someone else will register my children for school.

I know that someone else will know the signs of developmental disabilities and mental health issues in my children.

I guess we're assume that these things are exclusively the mom's domain? But I don't think that's true in any family I know of. I will say that same as women are known to approach dads at playgrounds and either praise or offer to help them, schools similarly default to contacting the mom, nevermind the fact that most dads are perfectly competent and capable caregivers.

I know of NO families where the presence of developmental disabilities or mental health issues are unilateral concerns for just mom.

The third one on the list about giving birth was first the clue to me that this was a crowdsourced list -- it's just dripping with contempt and doesn't make sense.

The next two:

My partner will be judged for my parenting shortcomings.

I don’t have to worry about school supplies because someone else will do it for me.

I guess it's true that men, in general, don't give a shit what other people think so wouldn't fret about being "judged." That's not "privilege," however. That's just a case of having self-confidence. To the degree women have more insecurities and worry about what other people think, that's a woman problem (and probably an individual one), not some broader indictment of men; everyone should carry on without caring what other people think, much less caring if someone else is "judging."

The school supplies thing is just stupid -- we always did back-to-school shopping as a family and there were plenty of dads doing the same when we were at Staples or whatever.

The men I know make doctors appointments and take their kids to doctors. They cook. They plan birthday parties (granted, these birthday parties might not be the elaborate affairs some martyr moms might feel like they need to have so they don't feel judged, but that, again, is a woman problem, it's not "dad privilege."). They plan trips and pack their children for them. They chaperone school field trips. In fact, they do most of these things on this list except things they're physically incapable of, such as giving birth or breastfeeding. But they do, in fact, pick up the slack when their partners DO those physical things, the contemptuous tone of the bulleted list items notwithstanding.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I dispute the very premise of the article. I understand it was written to try to rile up women feeling resentful about things. But objectively, the insinuation that men don't do the things on this (ridiculously long, crow-sourced list) is unsupported by facts, except for some things that might fall more into the bucket of "emotional labor," which takes us back to those conversations since, at the end of the day, there are some things some moms care a lot more about than most dads -- and most of those are grounded in <checks notes> fear of "being judged" or other anxieties that men, generally, don't have.

Is not having that anxiety "dad privilege?" I suppose you could make the case. But, honestly, moms didn't have that anxiety for most millennia. If the supposition here is that men should start caring about these things that give moms anxiety (fear of being judged...) that's arguably stupid. Misery loves company, sure... But maybe, just maybe, women should take a page from the attitude most dads have and stop obsessing so much about things that don't matter in the long run.

+1,000 to this guy.

I work FT and am a very involved dad, and always have been. So were my dad, and my FIL.

My wife works PT, and does more than half, but less than 2/3 of family logistical management.

I do all grocery shopping and 90% of the cooking.

Many of you are complaining, essentially, that the judgment from society surrrounding parenting and child outcomes falls primarily on mom. There is truth to that.

You’re ignoring that, likewise, the judgment for the family’s earning and financial situation falls primarily on dad. When people think “it’s too bad they aren’t able to stay in a fancier hotel at Disney World, or travel to Europe for Spring Break, or send four kids to private colleges,” they’re wondering why dad doesn’t earn more. Not mom. So enjoy your “mom privilege.”

Ultimately, only we can decide for ourselves wise will individually adopt this guilt as our own burdens. My wife and I decided long ago that we would not, and we’re a lot happier for it. Highly recommend anyone who wants to submit such lists to substack instead try to find the same peace and confidence.

I have literally never heard anyone ever wonder why a dad isn’t earning more or say any version of anything you quoted. It’s really hard to believe this has happened to you more than once if at all. Or you hang out with total jerks.

What I do hear constantly is women who are judged as being bad moms for working AND other moms who are judged for being lazy because the SAH. Every choice a mom makes is fair game for judgement. You have no idea what you are talking about.

You don’t think that Dads who stay home don’t get judged as lazy? I sure have news for you.

Only by other men, because men as a group don't value childcare or work in the home.

I have never heard a woman disparage a SAHD. Ever. These men are generally complimented to their faces and talked about reverently among the women who know them as being unusually with it and caring, and being willing to buck gender stereotypes and do what is right for their family.

Meanwhile I have NEVER heard a SAHM spoken of this way.

Oh please, there was an entire thread the other day about how a SAHM should consider her husband's successes her own. People post glowing things about SAHMs (including on this very thread!) all the time.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

Exactly. This stuff is only considered nitpicky make-work by men who just assume everything will work itself out because, in his experience, everything [through the invisible efforts of all the women around him making adjustments, plans, concessions, etc.] does.

"OMG why do you make everything so hard?!!" Her mistake was discussing out loud the stuff that men are used to women doing silently and without complaint. Oops.

No, her mistakes was taking on a task she didn't want to do.

DH: Can my mom come stay with us next weekend?

DW: Sure thing, that'll be nice.

That's it. That's all you have to do. Let your husband, his mother's son, figure out what needs to be done for his mom to come visit. By playing into this whole woe is me I have to make fresh meatballs stereotype you're just enabling, and probably raising, another generation of useless men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly, all of this is made easier if mom stays home with the children and dad makes more money to compensate. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but most women would feel much less resentment if they dropped work to focus their efforts (when the children are young) on raising them and let their DH work harder to cover the bills.

So you think the only function women should have once they become mothers is to solely focus on being a mom? Why is that fair? Women have talents, skills and brains that society can benefit from! Why can Dads be dads and also productive members of society!

You do know the story of Japan? Women are choosing not to become mothers because of the unequal treatment of women! I am not encouraging my dds to become mothers! If the population dies out so be it.

I’m saying that mothers would be much happier if the focused solely on being moms when their children are young. They very well may have talents/brain/skills society can benefit from, but the discussion about happiness and purpose are two separate ones. The vast majority of career women have jobs, not careers, and it is ironic that women supporting feminism parrot the incredulous lie that working 45 hours per week as Regional Sales Manager to Management is worth more to women than being home with their child. It is certainly worth more to your company that you spend those hours click-clacking on your laptop, but it won’t make you happier. I think the female resentment is symptomatic that some women are waking up like “what the hell am I doing, getting sucked dry for $35/hr?” but the market absolutely cannot allow her to consider quitting so - quick! - blame her DH and they can fight about who cleans gutters so that no one stops and says “wait, who is actually getting all our time?”

Maybe... but only if her DH is happy to be the sole earner. A lot of men today hate that role and don't want their wives to stay home. Also many, many men simply do not make enough money to support a SAHM, even for a few years.

I know a lot of women who would happily have taken 4-5 years as a SAHM when their kids were small. Happily. But the household finances made this hard (it's not like 50 years ago where most working women made a small fraction of their husband's salary -- most married couples have a lot more pay parity now and losing one earner means losing 30-50% of the household income, not a small thing), plus they know that for their longterm finances (college, retirement) they have to go back to work, and they fear that even a couple years out of the workforce can mean a massive pay cut and never getting back on track.

Lots of women would love to be able to just focus on their kids for a while. They can't. But for some reason, this is just their problem and not a collective problem their husbands also must contend with.

That is why is said the solution for the resentment problem relies on both parents - women quit their job to focus on their children when they are young and men make more money. Unfortunately, telling men to make more money so their wives can stay home with a brand new baby is akin to telling women to lose weight. That this conversation is a such a black-box is a design of an efficient market, his company will fight tooth and nail to not pay him a dime more, so you fight about who is doing equal dishes at home so that no one stops and asks “why the hell does he get a $100 bonus when the company made millions in profit this quarter?”

I agree with the bolded but not the rest of it.

Why can't the answer be that the solution is rely on both parents TO RAISE THE CHILDREN THEY BOTH MADE?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, all of this is made easier if mom stays home with the children and dad makes more money to compensate. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but most women would feel much less resentment if they dropped work to focus their efforts (when the children are young) on raising them and let their DH work harder to cover the bills.

So you think the only function women should have once they become mothers is to solely focus on being a mom? Why is that fair? Women have talents, skills and brains that society can benefit from! Why can Dads be dads and also productive members of society!

You do know the story of Japan? Women are choosing not to become mothers because of the unequal treatment of women! I am not encouraging my dds to become mothers! If the population dies out so be it.

I’m saying that mothers would be much happier if the focused solely on being moms when their children are young. They very well may have talents/brain/skills society can benefit from, but the discussion about happiness and purpose are two separate ones. The vast majority of career women have jobs, not careers, and it is ironic that women supporting feminism parrot the incredulous lie that working 45 hours per week as Regional Sales Manager to Management is worth more to women than being home with their child. It is certainly worth more to your company that you spend those hours click-clacking on your laptop, but it won’t make you happier. I think the female resentment is symptomatic that some women are waking up like “what the hell am I doing, getting sucked dry for $35/hr?” but the market absolutely cannot allow her to consider quitting so - quick! - blame her DH and they can fight about who cleans gutters so that no one stops and says “wait, who is actually getting all our time?”

Maybe... but only if her DH is happy to be the sole earner. A lot of men today hate that role and don't want their wives to stay home. Also many, many men simply do not make enough money to support a SAHM, even for a few years.

I know a lot of women who would happily have taken 4-5 years as a SAHM when their kids were small. Happily. But the household finances made this hard (it's not like 50 years ago where most working women made a small fraction of their husband's salary -- most married couples have a lot more pay parity now and losing one earner means losing 30-50% of the household income, not a small thing), plus they know that for their longterm finances (college, retirement) they have to go back to work, and they fear that even a couple years out of the workforce can mean a massive pay cut and never getting back on track.

Lots of women would love to be able to just focus on their kids for a while. They can't. But for some reason, this is just their problem and not a collective problem their husbands also must contend with.

That is why is said the solution for the resentment problem relies on both parents - women quit their job to focus on their children when they are young and men make more money. Unfortunately, telling men to make more money so their wives can stay home with a brand new baby is akin to telling women to lose weight. That this conversation is a such a black-box is a design of an efficient market, his company will fight tooth and nail to not pay him a dime more, so you fight about who is doing equal dishes at home so that no one stops and asks “why the hell does he get a $100 bonus when the company made millions in profit this quarter?”

I agree with the bolded but not the rest of it.

Why can't the answer be that the solution is rely on both parents TO RAISE THE CHILDREN THEY BOTH MADE?

Agreed but I actually appreciate the PPs example because it highlights how lopsided this conversation is. We talk about how women have to/get to choose whether or not to stay home with kids, but realistically they can only do that if their partners make enough on their own to support the family. Most don't.

If people are going to go around telling women they should be home with their children for at least the first 5 years of life (something plenty of conservatives will argue for), why isn't it okay to tell men "you need to make more money so your wives can afford to stay home with the kids"? People (men) freak out when you imply that men need to do a better job of providing financially for a family, but people tell women all the time they need to take better care of their kids. It's a double standard.

I personally agree with you that really couples should just view the whole enchilada (the money, the childcare, the home care, the household planning) as their joint responsibility and allocate it as equally as possible, whether they divide and conquer (one person works for money, the other takes care of the kids) or they split it all down the middle, or some other arrangement that is equitable. But it's worth pointing out that the same people who demand women stay home and care for the kids are not also telling men to facilitate that by earning more (probably because the same people also tend to be anti-worker and pro-corporation and don't want workers getting any ideas about asking for higher pay).

It's a fair point.

[Anonymous]

Hmm, I get what the list is getting at. However, in our household, we divide stuff up. For example, I have not cooked a dinner in years, or chaperoned a field trip ever. But my husband has not planned a birthday party, or replaced outgrown clothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

It’s a real d*ck move not to even attempt to host your own mother via (checks notes) providing a hot meal - and moreover to call your wife “crazy” for wanting to do so. y’all are being either truly dysfunctional or totally dishonest.

So let your husband be a d*ck. Why are you making that your problem?

Look, you are so far out of the realm of normal, basic functioning family life that it’s almost pointless. In normal families you do normal things, like put a hot meal on the table when Grandma comes to visit. Dad privilege is assuming Mom will take care of it. Personality disorder is trashing your wife for *wanting to make YOUR mom a hot meal*, and claiming that it’s totally made up work and she’s an idiot for having such high standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, all of this is made easier if mom stays home with the children and dad makes more money to compensate. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but most women would feel much less resentment if they dropped work to focus their efforts (when the children are young) on raising them and let their DH work harder to cover the bills.

The problem with this is once upon a time when women stayed home, they viewed their role as "homemaker" and that job description included everything: Care for children, keep the house clean and orderly, fix the meals.

Today's young women define this role as "SAHM" with the emphasis on the "M." They think their duty is only to look after the children during the hours that their husband is working or commuting but that he should immediately step in for 50% on all of the other tasks. They bristle at the "homemaker" label -- basically they are invested in intensive mothering; so, basically, they want to be a nanny or governess to their own children. The rest of the duties that used to be embedded in the role are beneath them and either need to be outsourced or shared equally.

Uh, women did all the childcare and housework 24/7 (including physically caring for their husbands like they were children -- cooking for them, cleaning them, washing their clothes, running their errands, even bathing and grooming them sometimes) because they were oppressed, had no economic power and no political rights, and were viewed as the property of their fathers and husbands. Not because the really "embraced the role" of homemaker. But because if they failed to perform the role, their husbands might abandon them and they were not allowed to do most jobs or own property or have bank accounts, plus rape wasn't even illegal except as a violation of another man's property rights so they'd be very vulnerable.

The good old days. When women would cook and clean and tend to children all day, and then the second their husbands came home, tend to him while continuing to cook and clean until bedtime, while their husbands with "real jobs" replaced after a hard day of work.

Yeah, it's so weird that women today are not eager to return to that set up, I wonder why.

But ... they want a "shell" of that that set-up. They only want the intensive mothering bit. Which is insanely easy. Easiest job ever. So, really, they're just lazy. The ones who continue to do this when their children are in elementary school are the laziest of them all. It would be different if they embraced the actual job description of a homemaker.

But men want the whole set up. They want to go to work and then come home and do nothing. Men expect this whether their wives work outside the home or not. Whether the kids are toddlers or teens. They do not believe that the work of childcare outside their working hours should be evenly divided. EVEN if both people worked all day (whether that work was for pay or unpaid wiping of butts and preparing snacks and all that).

Women who have husbands with this attitude (which is most husbands) are stuck. If they work, they will still be expected to do the majority of childcare/housework outside of work hours. Sometimes this is justified by "I make more money" or "my job is harder" or "I work longer hours." But usually not.

On the other hand, if they SAHM, they may have more time to do all the tasks they will be expected to do anyway. But they are expected to work 24/7, because men like you think being a SAHM is easy. You don't understand what is so hard about childcare that she can't also keep the house perfectly tidy and do all the administrative stuff too. What's she doing all day? No really, you have no idea, having never cared for kids full time. What IS she doing all day? So even if she spends the entire day working, you still expect her to do the vast majority of the after-work childcare/household responsibilities because, after all, she doesn't have a "real job" like you (nevermind if your job actually involves a lot of sitting, downtime, and socializing with colleagues and clients, things that could easily be called easy when compared to the hardest parts of what even a SAHM of school age kids does).

Which is why the only "solution" anyone has ever found to this is outsourcing a lot of the childcare and housework so that the couple can divide what is left. But most families can't afford that.

Is there ANY situation in which you actually believe that a man should do 50% (or more!) of the childcare/housework/household admin? I bet no. That's women's work.

Um, not most men. My father wasn't like this. My husband isn't like this. I know plenty of men who aren't like this.

I also know men who do more than 50% at home because their wives' careers are more intense or they have other issues going on.

It's comments like the ones you're responding to that make these complaints hard to take seriously. We have data; we know what "most men" do. They don't come home and do "nothing" they come home and do less, but they also work more. The issue, if there is one, is about distribution, not that either party is doing "nothing." Overall, we're all doing about the same amount.

No, we have data showing that men increase women’s domestic labor. Also it’s well known that men hide at work to avoid coming home to take care of kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

Such a great example. Yet what happens when MIL arrives at dinner time on a Tuesday? Has “DH” come home early from work to tidy the house, make up the guest bed, then figured out a nice dinner that allows MIL to feel welcomed while DIL isn’t overly stressed? Lololol. I think we ALL know the answer to that one. Here’s how it really goes:

(Saturday) DW, my mom wants to come stay for a few nights on Tuesday. Is that ok?

DW: of course! your mom is always welcome.

DW: OK, Tuesday I have that presentation at 2 so I won’t have any time to get the house ready on Monday. I think I can get home Tuesday around 5 - that gives me an hour or so to tidy up and put clean sheets on the guest bed. But that doesn’t leave time to make dinner. I think I could put a lasagna together today so I can pop it in the oven Tuesday. Do you think you can do pickup and dropoff on Tuesday so I can make that work?

DH: Why do you have to do any of that? Mom just wants to see the kids, she doesn’t care.

DW: Well the guest bed sheets haven’t been changed since your brother stayed here, the house will be messy, and we do need to eat dinner. I’d like to have something a bit nicer than frozen meatballs for your mom.

DH: Why do you make up all this stuff? None of that needs to be done.

So don't make the dinner. Don't change the bed sheets. Don't clean the house. If YOU want it done, do it. If you don't care, then don't. It's really not that complicated.

So to be clear, the options are:

(1) Make dinner, change the sheets, and clean the house yourself.
(2) Greet a houseguest with a dirty house, dirty sheets, and no food.

Okay, what if the houseguest is a mutual college friend of both people. So if the wife thinks they should do some basic stuff to prepare for the guest, because it's just good manners and will also help the visit to go better, but the husband doesnt care, again, her choice is to do it all her self or just treat the houseguest (who is equally a guest of both partner) poorly?

It just doesn't make sense to run a marriage this way. It would be one thing if we were talking about one partner wanting to just change the sheets and order a pizza, and the other is like "no we have to clean the house top to bottom and make a 5 course meal, nothing else will do." That would be an example of one partner having unreasonably high standards and needing to either do the extra work she's created herself or accept the bare minimum that her partner is advocating for (or even better, have a productive conversation and meet somewhere in the middle).

But we're talking about situations where a wife is advocating for the bare minimum and the husband is like "I simply do not care about incredibly basic home care, hosting, or hygiene, if you want that stuff done do it yourself." This is such childish, petulant BS I simply cannot believe anyone would advocate for it. You can't discuss a meal a few days in advance to ensure you don't have to cook or come up with something last minute when you own mother is coming to visit? What kind of idiot, irresponsible, man child nonsense is that? You can't take 5 minutes to change some sheets or just make sure the guest bathroom is presentable? For your own mother? Again, this is such bare minimum stuff.

What is really happening is that the men in these scenarios KNOW they are fighting against doing the bare minimum, but they are depending on the fact that society judges women much more harshly for this stuff than men (and will blame the wife for a messy house or no dinner even when it's his mom who's coming to visit) to incentivize his wife to just go ahead and do it. So... dad privilege.

+100. Any decent man would perceive that his wife wanting to make his *own mother’s* visit nicer is a valuable gesture that benefits the whole family. It’s just mind boggling to claim otherwise. I do think there are some men who honestly would treat their own mothers that way (dirty house, no food).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, all of this is made easier if mom stays home with the children and dad makes more money to compensate. I know it’s an unpopular sentiment, but most women would feel much less resentment if they dropped work to focus their efforts (when the children are young) on raising them and let their DH work harder to cover the bills.

The problem with this is once upon a time when women stayed home, they viewed their role as "homemaker" and that job description included everything: Care for children, keep the house clean and orderly, fix the meals.

Today's young women define this role as "SAHM" with the emphasis on the "M." They think their duty is only to look after the children during the hours that their husband is working or commuting but that he should immediately step in for 50% on all of the other tasks. They bristle at the "homemaker" label -- basically they are invested in intensive mothering; so, basically, they want to be a nanny or governess to their own children. The rest of the duties that used to be embedded in the role are beneath them and either need to be outsourced or shared equally.

Uh, women did all the childcare and housework 24/7 (including physically caring for their husbands like they were children -- cooking for them, cleaning them, washing their clothes, running their errands, even bathing and grooming them sometimes) because they were oppressed, had no economic power and no political rights, and were viewed as the property of their fathers and husbands. Not because the really "embraced the role" of homemaker. But because if they failed to perform the role, their husbands might abandon them and they were not allowed to do most jobs or own property or have bank accounts, plus rape wasn't even illegal except as a violation of another man's property rights so they'd be very vulnerable.

The good old days. When women would cook and clean and tend to children all day, and then the second their husbands came home, tend to him while continuing to cook and clean until bedtime, while their husbands with "real jobs" replaced after a hard day of work.

Yeah, it's so weird that women today are not eager to return to that set up, I wonder why.

But ... they want a "shell" of that that set-up. They only want the intensive mothering bit. Which is insanely easy. Easiest job ever. So, really, they're just lazy. The ones who continue to do this when their children are in elementary school are the laziest of them all. It would be different if they embraced the actual job description of a homemaker.

But men want the whole set up. They want to go to work and then come home and do nothing. Men expect this whether their wives work outside the home or not. Whether the kids are toddlers or teens. They do not believe that the work of childcare outside their working hours should be evenly divided. EVEN if both people worked all day (whether that work was for pay or unpaid wiping of butts and preparing snacks and all that).

Women who have husbands with this attitude (which is most husbands) are stuck. If they work, they will still be expected to do the majority of childcare/housework outside of work hours. Sometimes this is justified by "I make more money" or "my job is harder" or "I work longer hours." But usually not.

On the other hand, if they SAHM, they may have more time to do all the tasks they will be expected to do anyway. But they are expected to work 24/7, because men like you think being a SAHM is easy. You don't understand what is so hard about childcare that she can't also keep the house perfectly tidy and do all the administrative stuff too. What's she doing all day? No really, you have no idea, having never cared for kids full time. What IS she doing all day? So even if she spends the entire day working, you still expect her to do the vast majority of the after-work childcare/household responsibilities because, after all, she doesn't have a "real job" like you (nevermind if your job actually involves a lot of sitting, downtime, and socializing with colleagues and clients, things that could easily be called easy when compared to the hardest parts of what even a SAHM of school age kids does).

Which is why the only "solution" anyone has ever found to this is outsourcing a lot of the childcare and housework so that the couple can divide what is left. But most families can't afford that.

Is there ANY situation in which you actually believe that a man should do 50% (or more!) of the childcare/housework/household admin? I bet no. That's women's work.

Um, not most men. My father wasn't like this. My husband isn't like this. I know plenty of men who aren't like this.

I also know men who do more than 50% at home because their wives' careers are more intense or they have other issues going on.

It's comments like the ones you're responding to that make these complaints hard to take seriously. We have data; we know what "most men" do. They don't come home and do "nothing" they come home and do less, but they also work more. The issue, if there is one, is about distribution, not that either party is doing "nothing." Overall, we're all doing about the same amount.

No, we have data showing that men increase women’s domestic labor. Also it’s well known that men hide at work to avoid coming home to take care of kids.

1) We most certainly do have data showing that between paid work, household work, and caregiving men and women do similar amounts of work in a week. You might not like it, but you can just say "no."
2) We do have data that women in married households do more household work than women in other types of households. Some other data showed men doing less, but there's also data that shows that married men do more household work than single men. The 2022 ATUS data showed men doing a bit over 30 minutes more of household activity per day if they were married and living with their spouse than if they were single (or married but living apart from their spouse). Would you call that "data that women increase men's domestic labor"?
3) I know nothing about men hiding at work to avoid coming home to kids. I don't do it, I don't know a man who does it (all the dads at my office check out early to take do school pick up, actually, but it's a small office). I do think it's funny, though, that time use data about women's housework and childcare is reliable, but the same data about men doing paid labor isn't. Convenient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The list was definitely illuminating. There's a lot of things that don't apply to my family (I would say my husband is honestly better at solo parenting and solo bedtimes than I am)

I do remember one time I asked my husband to do the birthday party invites and boy did he whine and moan about having to copy and paste some some emails from the preschool directory.

This is the behavior that gets me. There's all this stuff I do that DH doesn't do -- arrange childcare, deal with school (registration, supply lists, teacher communication, knowing it's "crazy sock day," telling the school why a kid is staying home, etc.), deal with clothes and shoes, summer camp, etc. I'll try to delegate some of it to DH and he will just be a child about it, complaining about every single step, throwing up his hands in frustration, procrastinating until the very last minute, etc.

So I'm never actually free of these tasks because he makes such a drama out of it if he does it. Often he'll make a huge stink and STILL not actually do it, until the deadline is tonight and I wind up having to help him with it or do it myself in order to ensure the kids get enrolled in camp or they have swim goggles for class or whatever.

The experience is stressful and it makes me think twice before trying to delegate the next time-- do I want to deal with that again? He also just refuses to ever actually own a task. Like I can make him do camp signups with a lot of handholding and moaning one year, but this does not turn into him initiating that process himself the next year, now that in theory he understands the process. I still have to bring it up and ask him to handle it, and if he dies he will need the same amount of help and will complain just as much. He just clearly does not view it as his problem. And the frustrating thing is if I truly dropped the rope and he didn't do it, he also wouldn't view our lack of summer childcare as his problem-- he'd look at me and say "what are we going to do" and wait for me to come up with a solution while taking no initiative.

When I read people in this thread saying "men are better at delegating" I just think about how delegating is a lot easier if you have a competent person with a good attitude to delegate to. It's a lot harder when your "team" is just one guy who acts like spending 5 minutes researching something online or dealing with any paperwork at all is some horrible imposition.

So did none of this behavior show itself before you had kids? My husband and I each had a dog when we started dating, so I was aware of how much effort he would put into taking care of an animal. We went on trips together, so I saw how much time he would be willing to spend researching trips with me. We hosted parties, so I could tell how much help he would provide if we did something like that, including if it was for "my" friends. We spent time with family, so I knew how much he would be responsible for in terms of responsibility for things related to gifts/planning/hosting/etc. What exactly did you do when you were dating?