College App Process with weak public HS counselors who are preoccupied with other things

[Anonymous]

Looking for advice. I know the college advising is poor. The Naviance info shows a remarkably small range of schools to which students apply, and the stray applications beyond that range are largely unsuccessful. Scatter plots are not even available because the number of students who apply to anything other than the state schools is so low.

I know the counselor does not have the resources to write helpful recommendations or advise on where to apply. I can navigate finding best fit colleges, and the logistics of the application process. Would really appreciate advice however, in how to be sure the school doesn't tank any applications by being so unhelpful it doesn't look like the student is supported, or by indifference or ignorance. There is a good (small) cohort of kids at the top of the school, but it is clear they are not getting great advice.

If you have navigated this and have advice, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

My child's hs counseling was poor. So, I bought books off of Amazon and figured it out myself. Great success - daughter got into highest ranked Ivy.

If you give me the scores, grades, h.s., I can "guesstimate" your chances for particular schools.

[Anonymous]

The school enters in to the equation in a couple of ways. One is teacher recs. These are typically submitted through the Common App. If your school doesn't have a lot of college bound kids it's probably best to pick a teacher in an AP or equivalent class who is more likely to have experience writing recommendations. If the teachers really don't have this experience then I would consider giving them some background information on the student to help them with the process, like a resume or even a narrative summary of the child's accomplishments (which might find its way into the rec).

The second is the counselor rec. At our school the kids filled out a packet on themselves and their activities and we were required to write a note as well. We worked pretty hard on both with the assumption that the counselors probably use large parts of that to complete the narrative portion of their recs. If your school doesn't have this process again you might consider providing the info anyway.

Other than that it's mostly an admin role - sending transcripts. At our school that was mostly handled by a person in the college guidance office, not the individual counselors. You filled out the request, gave them $5 per transcript, and they sent it out. All of this gets recorded on the Common App so you can see where things stand.

Bottom line - if you want real counseling, you probably need a private counselor. I frankly wouldn't worry as much about the school's role.

Are you in an underperforming DC public school?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your response. I can figure out a good fit or a reach school. It's how to get the best out of limited resources at the high school. Do we sort of pre-write the recommendation letter that comes from the guidance office? What if the counselor doesn't even know the student or the nature of the schools to which the student is applying? They can't be enthusiastic if they don't have a clue about the schools. Also, few out of state schools even bother to recruit at this HS. I'm not looking for a "connection" from the counselors, I'm worried about their level of oblivion reflecting on the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your response. I can figure out a good fit or a reach school. It's how to get the best out of limited resources at the high school. Do we sort of pre-write the recommendation letter that comes from the guidance office? What if the counselor doesn't even know the student or the nature of the schools to which the student is applying? They can't be enthusiastic if they don't have a clue about the schools. Also, few out of state schools even bother to recruit at this HS. I'm not looking for a "connection" from the counselors, I'm worried about their level of oblivion reflecting on the students.

You are quite right in your concerns. My DC's counselor in a good FCPS school was extremely inefficient in the precious few things needed from her, like transcripts and LoR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your response. I can figure out a good fit or a reach school. It's how to get the best out of limited resources at the high school. Do we sort of pre-write the recommendation letter that comes from the guidance office? What if the counselor doesn't even know the student or the nature of the schools to which the student is applying? They can't be enthusiastic if they don't have a clue about the schools. Also, few out of state schools even bother to recruit at this HS. I'm not looking for a "connection" from the counselors, I'm worried about their level of oblivion reflecting on the students.

Recruiting happens primarily for sports and primarily through club sports. If your student is looking at recruiting they should be contacting the coaches.

If you are referring to the colleges visiting the school, I wouldn't worry about that. My DC only went to a couple of those and then decided he couldn't miss any more classes for the info sessions. Most of those visits are about drumming up applications. They aren't evaluative.

My DC went to one of the best public school in the area and we did not rely on the school for advice, and I had one kid at private school and it was no better. So don't rely on the school to do anything. Use the various search engines, get on college confidential, go to various college info sessions (some schools do college process ones that aren't specific to their college, plus plenty of the college counselors/SAT prep places do into type sessions).

And it goes without saying that your student should really be taking the lead on this process.

[Anonymous]

Thanks PPs. Your info is helpful. I was figuring the higher level course teachers will be the biggest help. And I forgot that once the basics are in the Common App, that will help too.

Not DC btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your response. I can figure out a good fit or a reach school. It's how to get the best out of limited resources at the high school. Do we sort of pre-write the recommendation letter that comes from the guidance office? What if the counselor doesn't even know the student or the nature of the schools to which the student is applying? They can't be enthusiastic if they don't have a clue about the schools. Also, few out of state schools even bother to recruit at this HS. I'm not looking for a "connection" from the counselors, I'm worried about their level of oblivion reflecting on the students.

I wouldn't worry about the bolded part. If anything, a kid who has good grades and test scores and has generally stayed on track for college at a school where that is not the norm will look better to colleges. Admissions office counselors will see the positives in a student who can do well in a less than ideal situation. They realize that doing all the things necessary to put together a good college application is more difficult at some schools than others and they take those factors into account.

[Anonymous]

OP, I was in your shoes 2-3 years ago. I can't find the thread I started asking these very same questions. I did, however, find a recap I did a year later answering someone just like us who was wondering whether to hire a private college counselor to supplement the big public high school counselor. I cut and pasted it below the asterisks, hope it's helpful.

To address your concerns, the good news is that our big public high school counselor got everything in on time. She had given us bad advice (like telling us two years of language is enough) so I really didn't trust her to get the forms in--but she did, apparently because like PP, our DC got into "one of the highest ranked Ivies."

Is your kid a junior or a senior? Your MCPS school probably (if it's like ours) has an extensive packet you and your kid need to fill out with info about your kid's favorite hobbies and activities. Also, here's where you can prompt the counselor with explanations (illness, whatever) for a bad semester or give him/her other important info (soloed at the Kennedy Center, first in family to go to college) that might not be in the school's own records. The counselors crib from these packets to write the recs.

Starting cut and paste from my old post:
***************

Our kids are in a large MoCo school and we, too, considered hiring a private counselor for DC#1. In fact, my post asking this very same question is probably still somewhere in the DCUM archives.

Things really have changed since our day, wrt APs, SATIIs, essay-writing, and wrt the competitiveness of the colleges that we got into. So you're right to look for help. Don't just assume that you can do what you did, back in the day, and it will all work out. The question is, do you need to hire this help, or can you figure it out yourself?

I got some helpful answers here two years ago. After going through the process with DC#1, I agree with most of the advice I got. Since people were so helpful to me, I'll try to recapitulate (other PPs, feel free to add on).

Basically, your need for a private counselor boils down to how you answer/view the questions below.
(1) How much free time and interest do you have to do your own research? There are books to read (Crazy U, of course, but also Fiske, maybe Price of Admission, a book or two on what the process looks like these days). There are Naviance and College Confidential to spend hours navigating. And as a base, there will be unavoidable, normal school transcript and counseling office demands that you will have to do anyway, and as a minimum, at your W school.
(2) Do you get frustrated and/or overwhelmed by lots of information and choices? Or do you see this as a fun challenge and maybe a chance to bond with your kid?
(3) Your kid - can you rely on you kid to do a lot of the work? Or are you thinking, as you read this, that you are dreading the process and you will really need a neutral third party to push your kid to write the essays?
(4) How much of a financial stretch will hiring a counselor be for you? Is this money you could save for college, or is this money you can spare?
(5) How good are you at dealing with professionals? Can you fire them, and say "no" to the $3,000 package if you don't think you need it? There are better and worse professionals in every profession, and I'm sure this profession is no different.
(6) How good is your ability to avoid helicoptering the whole process? Urging your kid not to write his essay about the service trip to Honduras, because you read the books and you know that topic is a bad idea, is totally different from writing the essay for him.

There may be some more things I haven't remembered, but these are what stick in my mind.

When I asked on DCUM, lots of people said we could do this ourselves. And we did. As you might suspect, we have a decent amount of time in the evenings and DC#1 was really motivated.

[Anonymous]

DS didn't want to wait on the counselor's recommendation letter. He was anxious to apply and to hear. He held several leadership positions at school that had required teacher nomination. He highlighted and explained those on his applications. Felt that showed he was a solid school citizen. Apps went in w/out the "recommended" counselor rec. DS was accepted by 2 schools (rolling admission) before the counselor had gotten around to him.

I know the school has their own timeline. I knew it was not going to mesh well with what our family needed. We needed to hear from a few rolling safeties early.

I hope it works out for you. This is a very individualized process.

[Anonymous]

Does your school offer a meeting explaining the college app process at your school? I would recommend attending sophomore year to get your head around all the details. And then attend again during your child's junior year. They can be quite informative. As for recommendation letters, my kids had to provide a resume to each teacher so that the rec was personal. The resume details my child's GPA, higher level classes taken, extracurricular activities,SAT scores, summer jobs etc. Is this all you are asking about or are you wondering how all the pieces of information are sent to the college on a timely basis?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does your school offer a meeting explaining the college app process at your school? I would recommend attending sophomore year to get your head around all the details. And then attend again during your child's junior year. They can be quite informative. As for recommendation letters, my kids had to provide a resume to each teacher so that the rec was personal. The resume details my child's GPA, higher level classes taken, extracurricular activities,SAT scores, summer jobs etc. Is this all you are asking about or are you wondering how all the pieces of information are sent to the college on a timely basis?

OP here. This is what I'm hoping for. I have confidence in the higher level course teachers putting out decent recommendations. I am concerned about the counselor's letter being condescending or dismissive due to lack of understanding of the students or target colleges. I can tell by the list of schools to which past students have applied that the counselors lack knowledge. I am not worried about identifying fit colleges or looking for a college guidance counseling service.

Thanks to all who shared experiences or insight.

[Anonymous]

I have found I have had to become my DD's "counselor" for better or worse as far as finding schools that fit her preferences and abilities. It is extremely time consuming, but fun in its own way, too. Of course, DD is also contributing to discovering schools in which she's interested.

At our MCPS school, the students and parents fill out a questionnaire that the counselor presumably draws from for the recommendations. It's a confusing process as DD's teacher for the recommendation letter just asked her for the addresses (mail and email) for the admissions offices at the schools she's applying to. I assumed this would be better coordinated and the counselor and teacher recommendation letters sent out together. Since we have to waive the right to see the letters, we're kind of flying on blind faith here and hoping for the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your school offer a meeting explaining the college app process at your school? I would recommend attending sophomore year to get your head around all the details. And then attend again during your child's junior year. They can be quite informative. As for recommendation letters, my kids had to provide a resume to each teacher so that the rec was personal. The resume details my child's GPA, higher level classes taken, extracurricular activities,SAT scores, summer jobs etc. Is this all you are asking about or are you wondering how all the pieces of information are sent to the college on a timely basis?

OP here. This is what I'm hoping for. I have confidence in the higher level course teachers putting out decent recommendations. I am concerned about the counselor's letter being condescending or dismissive due to lack of understanding of the students or target colleges. I can tell by the list of schools to which past students have applied that the counselors lack knowledge. I am not worried about identifying fit colleges or looking for a college guidance counseling service.

Thanks to all who shared experiences or insight.

Seems to be something odd going on here. Have you or your DC gotten off on a bad foot with the counselor? If not then why would it be condescending? The counselor writes one rec regardless of wether the application is going to Harvard or Frostburg State. Surely the counselors have some interest in sending a few kids to good colleges. Since you've said you aren't in a DC public school I am surprised that any of the other area school systems don't have at least a few applying to competitive schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have found I have had to become my DD's "counselor" for better or worse as far as finding schools that fit her preferences and abilities. It is extremely time consuming, but fun in its own way, too. Of course, DD is also contributing to discovering schools in which she's interested.

At our MCPS school, the students and parents fill out a questionnaire that the counselor presumably draws from for the recommendations. It's a confusing process as DD's teacher for the recommendation letter just asked her for the addresses (mail and email) for the admissions offices at the schools she's applying to. I assumed this would be better coordinated and the counselor and teacher recommendation letters sent out together. Since we have to waive the right to see the letters, we're kind of flying on blind faith here and hoping for the best.

The teacher recs are done through the common app. Most schools (other than Georgetown) require them to be submitted that way. You should double check on this since you don't want the rec letters to be lost in the process.