DOJ Appellate Staff (Civil Division)

[Anonymous]

Just saw that the Appellate Staff in the Civil Division is hiring (or claims to be, anyway, assuming they don't already have people in mind). Can anyone provide any insight into the culture and quality of life in this section? Hours, flexibility, perks like work from home, etc? I assume the people are very smart and hard-working and probably collegial. Do they trend toward the younger, recent grads with no kids, or are there older attorneys with families? Is the travel just a couple of days a month, or is it a week or more of back-to-back arguments in various circuits?

I have been out of law school for 8 years, do appellate litigation for another agency, and have an infant (and hope to have another in a year or two). Hence my queries about quality of life. I have done Biglaw as well and do not want to return to that lifestyle. I have great autonomy and flexibility in my current work, but the work itself is not scintillating and in recent months there hasn't been enough of it.

Thanks for any insights from anyone who has worked there or knows people who have worked there.

[Anonymous]

NP here - also curious about the office. How many attorneys are in the appellate group? What are the chances they are really hiring (I haven't seen a posting by them for years for vacancies)? What is the usual caseload, and do people usually stay in that position for a while or if not, where do they usually go after that? Tia

[Anonymous]

Did you go to HYS? Did you have an appellate clerkship? If you don't have both of those, I wouldn't bother applying.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I would add that a good chunk of their work seems to be writing memos, "supervising" delegated cases, and attending meetings at OSG, not actually writing briefs and oral argument. I think the line attorneys typically have less than six oral arguments per year. There's certainly the prestige factor, but I actually think I'd be pretty bored there day to day.

-DOJ Civil (not Appellate) attorney

[Anonymous]

Did you go to HYS? Did you have an appellate clerkship? If you don't have both of those, I wouldn't bother applying.

I'm going to have to echo this. We had several people from my section in DOJ Civil do details there (we handle our own appeals, so all also had previous appellate experience). Not one of them was offered a permanent position, either after the detail or after subsequent applications to vacancies, even though they were all terrific attorneys. They are obviously very into pedigree there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Did you go to HYS? Did you have an appellate clerkship? If you don't have both of those, I wouldn't bother applying.

I'm going to have to echo this. We had several people from my section in DOJ Civil do details there (we handle our own appeals, so all also had previous appellate experience). Not one of them was offered a permanent position, either after the detail or after subsequent applications to vacancies, even though they were all terrific attorneys. They are obviously very into pedigree there.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Did you go to HYS? Did you have an appellate clerkship? If you don't have both of those, I wouldn't bother applying.

I'm going to have to echo this. We had several people from my section in DOJ Civil do details there (we handle our own appeals, so all also had previous appellate experience). Not one of them was offered a permanent position, either after the detail or after subsequent applications to vacancies, even though they were all terrific attorneys. They are obviously very into pedigree there.

OP here. I figured as much. I went to Yale and had a district court clerkship, so I am aware that I don't have the top-most pedigree. Still, I am curious; you never know unless you apply, right? But before I even do that much I'm looking for more information. What another PP said about them supervising more than writing is interesting and the sort of information I'm looking for. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I don't get the impression you'd be overworked or over-travelled, compared to other parts of Civil. Think most of the attorneys there have been there for quite some time; can't speak to their familial status. You'd have telework options like in other parts of Civil.

[Anonymous]

OP, I don't mean to be discouraging, but I'm pretty familiar with the office and can say with confidence that no one in recent history (i.e., last 15 years at least) has been hired who didn't have a federal court of appeals clerkship, and most have also clerked on the Supreme Court or have a Supreme Court clerkship lined up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Did you go to HYS? Did you have an appellate clerkship? If you don't have both of those, I wouldn't bother applying.

I'm going to have to echo this. We had several people from my section in DOJ Civil do details there (we handle our own appeals, so all also had previous appellate experience). Not one of them was offered a permanent position, either after the detail or after subsequent applications to vacancies, even though they were all terrific attorneys. They are obviously very into pedigree there.

+1

You also need to be really good at subtly reminding others how much better and smarter you are than them. That's why they look for the HYS grads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I don't mean to be discouraging, but I'm pretty familiar with the office and can say with confidence that no one in recent history (i.e., last 15 years at least) has been hired who didn't have a federal court of appeals clerkship, and most have also clerked on the Supreme Court or have a Supreme Court clerkship lined up.

Good to know. Discouraging is fine -- I know it would be a tremendous long shot to get the job, perhaps even to get an interview. Maybe they'd laugh in disdain when they read my resume!

Also, one of the things I like about my current agency is that it's not overrun with HYS people reminding each other how awesome they are. If that is truly what the culture is like at the office, then that's a negative as far as I'm concerned. Some of the best attorneys I've worked with went to state schools, but no one I work with really talks about law school anyway since we're all long graduated.

[Anonymous]

Not at DOJ, but have worked with that division a fair bit. By and large, they seem to be very nice people in person-to-person relations. But, yeah, there is a high professional snob factor.

[Anonymous]

Also, one of the things I like about my current agency is that it's not overrun with HYS people reminding each other how awesome they are. If that is truly what the culture is like at the office, then that's a negative as far as I'm concerned. Some of the best attorneys I've worked with went to state schools, but no one I work with really talks about law school anyway since we're all long graduated.

PP with friends who detailed there - they did not feel like the other attorneys that they worked with were snobby or stuck up. The issue was just that the office only intends to hire folks with the "right" pedigree, not that the office environment was bad or coworkers were stuck up.