How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women have to really think hard if they themselves and the guy they want to marry is really family material or not. To be fair, so should men. Every person isn't cut out to be a good partner or a good parent.

I think it's very, very difficult if not impossible to predict this in advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I'm not really getting a sense of how these marriages, especially long term ones, evolved from what originally were satisfactory relationships into intolerable ones. All these posts are pretty much "I've been married for 10 15 or 20 years" to this guy who is useless around the house, doesn't meet my expectations, and never did.

The wives seem to be saying that not only do they place a very high priority on having a very clean and organized home and.family life. It has to be clean and organized in a particular often idiosyncratic way. The husband is also required to share that same sense of priority. Further, the wife's expectation seems to be that the husband must contribute exactly the same level of effort, passion and commitment as the wife determines is required.

It's almost as if all these expectations were created by attending some kind of women's study classes in college, or discussions with third wave feminists, or assumed as the default, but we're never actually discussed, much less negotiated, with their husbands at any stage of the relationships. No, demands aren't negotiations or discussions.

Everyone is entitled to set priorities as they see fit. However, it is unrealistic to assume your partner will have the same priorities or the same investment in fulfilling them.

Basically the job, whatever it is, belongs to the person who cares the most about it. Getting angry that your spouse simply doesn't care as much as you think he should about living in a dirty house is not only unrealistic, it misunderstands the real issue, which in all these cases seems to be about the frustrated spouses sense of lack of ability to control her lazy spouses behaviors. Well that's not something you are ever going to be able to do. And you shouldn't be angry about it. The answer to a spouse who won't clean the house isn't to get divorced, it's to clean it.yourself or hire it out. Don't pretend you were unaware he was a slob when you married him. You married him for other reasons and you know it.

Why do you think marriages were satisfactory? My grandmother was miserable and had a massive anxiety problem because of the demands placed on her, but it was a time when there were zero other options for women.

Women have options now and can demand better.

I expect that my H will prioritize our marriage and family above everything else. And that means being a fully functioning partner, and maintaining a minimum of the same standard he holds himself to at work. If, at work, he is able to accomplish tasks on time and to completion, not pawn his work off on anyone else, and clean up after himself, I expect the same behavior at home. To do any less is a clear message that he respects and values his colleagues more than his family, and that is not acceptable to me.

I do not believe the job belong to whoever “cares” about it. It’s not about caring about the dishes. It’s about caring for your partner and your family, and wanting to do the absolute best by them.

People who do not hold themselves to this standard, who cannot treat their family with value and respect, should not get married nor have children. No one is forcing these men to get married, and if they prefer to be selfish and think only of themselves, they are free to remain single.

While I agree with you, many times it does boil down to one partner "caring" sooner about something. The dishes will eventually bother my husband, just not as soon as they bother me. He rejects my assertion they need to be done after every meal.

Your assertion is literally false. Dishes don't need to be done after every meal. You want them done after every meal, but it is clearly not a necessity. No wonder you are having issues with this stuff.

So did you discuss all these.things before marriage? Did you screen potential husband's for diligence and responsibility in terms of doing housework?

How often is doing dishes a necessity? Does it depend on when you can see bugs crawling in the sink, or is it more that you only have to do dishes once you run out?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My guess is he did stuff early in the relationship and you always corrected him, pointed out how it wasn't done "your way" which equal the only correct way.

OMG how many women have to explain that’s not at all what happened.

I have never in my life complained about H’s cooking. He’s a fantastic cook. But he still refuses to cook unless I do 90% of the work. He waltzes in to a fully stocked kitchen, selected recipe, trashes the place, pats himself on the back for “doing dinner”, then wanders away from stacks of dirty dishes, spills all over the counter and floor, trash everywhere to let the magic fairies clean up and replenish the groceries.

Are you cleaning up the mess? You can’t. You leave it all there. That’s the only way they learn.

On my first maternity leave I told my husband he was in charge of cooking. I told him this means he buys the groceries, cleans up etc. Not asking me what’s for dinner expecting me to hand him a list for the store. He learned.

They can get a law degree, but you have to list all of the things that encompass "cooking." It's so ridiculous.

In fairness, a lot of 1Ls in law school act clueless about expectations until somebody laughs in their face and refuses to help them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Some of this is just how hard kids are. Dh and I both were hard working, very clean and loved to cook. 3 kids, tons of promotions later, much larger house and we just cannot keep up. I do 5x more than I did before and Dh is still doing the same. He can’t juggle the way I can. I can’t fault him. He’s wonderful, great father, great husband. I still feel like I’m drowning. Women just can’t have it all. I feel lied to.

I’m constantly shocked at how messy my life and house is. No matter how early I start shoving everyone out the door, we’re always late. The playroom is always messy, there’s constantly food all over the floor

I do a ton more and try not to feel upset about it. I will say that I WANT more than Dh does though. I need the great vacations, wonderful holidays, parties that we throw. and the kids really want that stuff too. Like the kids want birthday parties, decorated house for Christmas, mom showing up to volunteer at their classes all the time.

That's why I stopped at two kids and severely limited the decorating and vacations. We take one vacation a year, I don ' have the energy to plan a trip to a Caribbean resort or Europe.

I also work and I outsource as much as I possibly can (nanny, regular housecleaning, grocery delivery, laundry service, restaurant delivery of healthy food) and I still feel the same way. Although for vacations, just go to Beaches or Club Med. All you have to do is show up. There is no expectation that working parents volunteer at school - kids will forget you ever did it by the time they are adults. There are things you can do to ease your burden, but it doesn't ever feel like it's enough...

I'm pretty sure our husbands have never once contemplated if what they are doing at home is enough. Not once.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women have to really think hard if they themselves and the guy they want to marry is really family material or not. To be fair, so should men. Every person isn't cut out to be a good partner or a good parent.

I think it's very, very difficult if not impossible to predict this in advance.

That's true. Plus, my exhusband was and is a very good to excellent parent. Just not at all good at work/life balance, being a caring spouse or friend. Do you or do you not marry someone who is good at something important like parenting but lacking in other ways?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.

I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.

With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?

Things you can not outsource:

Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.

AND ON AND ON.

You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.

If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?

Yes! All of that.

The only counterpoint to consider, and it doesn't make it easier on the mom, is, is the dad doing things not listed.

Notably, all things house and car and finances, if they do them. Trash, poking squeaky hinges, lightbulbs, breaking appliances, clogged drains, yard, landscaping, crumbling masonry, taxes and insurance and investment management, paperwork and budgets, oil changes and fixing squeaky brakes, bringing in repeairpeople, killing a wasp nest in the yard, fixing paint or wiring himself when he can.... To the extent he does this, this is also a lot of mental a d physical load, including managing any external service providers.
Also electronics and computer and network management.

The unfortunate thing is, however, that many men have no knowledge or ability to do a lot of these things themselves or competently hire people to do them, so it falls on the wife again, or they do one thing once and call it an achievement, and it falls by the wayside or mom has to do it when she has time.

It probably depends on a case by case basis whether a wife acknowledges that contribution from husband or he just doesn't add anything.

I’m a lesbian, and I do all that stuff, and it’s definitely less than the daily household grind. My wife does do more of that, but it would be completely unbalanced if she were to do all of it herself. I’d say she spends 100% of her time on house work, and I spend 70% of my time on housework and 30% on those occasional tasks. It just isn’t the same unless you are, I don’t know, single-handedly rehabbing a Victorian.

PP you responded to.
That's good on you. My husband doesn't do those things and it is frustrating, but I take my hat off to those who do, because it is so overwhelming to me. Not the finances, but the house, car, electronics. There are things I have some ability to judge quality and learn about and some things (internet security, routers, etc) it's a bit of a steep learning curve for me and so I respect those who have that expertise and ability.

In your case....if you were doing 70% and she's doing 100%, from her perspective you still don't have bandwidth for 50% of hers, just.... I guess 15% (so you eajx are equally burdened).

Even if it's less work, it's not negligible and should be taken into account when doing the accounting; it might get the overwhelmed help with 1-2 chores but not the wholesale relief she might want or need.

Maybe I'm particularly sensitive to this because my house is old and the price of outside work is way more than $5000 quoted by another PP, so rehabbing our yard and fixing the issues in our house is a real lift and would cost $$$$$ to outsource and fix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So many women here complaining without realizing how they've contributed to the problem. Seriously ask yourself whether your husband really never does anything? Or does he do stuff, and then you criticize the way he did? The last time he folded the laundry, did you b***h at him about not folding shirts in half? Or the last time he made dinner, did you complain about what he made or the ingredients he used? I bet you did, and after a while, the guy just says, forget this, if you want it done your way then you do it.

Being bad at something doesn’t get you off the hook. If your coworker tells you your work sucks, do you just whine that they always complain? Or is that only reserved for your female spouse?

Being an adult is taking feedback about shortcomings and DOING BETTER. Not tossing up your hands and throwing in the towel.

Men need to grow the eff up. Women have jobs and money and can have kids alone.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Best decision I made in our marriage was to stay at home starting when our first of three was born. I saw the way things were going fairly early on and recognized that although I could “have it all” with a career - it was going to come at a cost trying to balance everything. Still happily married nearly 20 years later.

This is what I did too and while DH appreciated it for a long time, now that the kids are teens he is pressuring me to go back because I have "so much time" and yet he has no desire or willingness to change anything about his behavior. He's trying to make it about the money even though he makes 3x what he made when he was totally fine with my staying home, and we own our home and have college and retirement fully on track. Its quite the pickle and I'm not entirely sure how it will be resolved.

Well, do you have more time? Can you go back to work part-time? I have high schoolers and they require a lot less parental time than kids in elementary school.
I don't get your point. Your DH is working the same amount of hours, but your hours taking care of the kids has decreased. The amount of time taking care of house-related stuff presumably has stayed the same. So, the only variable that's changed is that you have more free time on your hands. Just own up to the fact that you don't want to work because you like not working and leading a leisurely life.

Why should she go back to work, when they have enough money and her DH likely still wouldn’t contribute to running the household? Then she would be in the exact situation we’re discussing here.

Why would anyone work? DH makes $2M+ and I still work and we have two children. I've always worked. If you can't find a part-time job in DC that is intellectually or emotionally fulfilling, especially when you don't need the income, then I would assume that you are limited in some way (intellectually, physically, emotionally, etc.). A grown woman, particularly one who has the benefit of a great education and no need for high income or benefits, should have some sense of, oh I don't know, giving to her community if she is capable. I have friends who are in their 50s with kids now in high school or college, who have not worked since having kids, and they are floundering. Women often need a higher sense of purpose beyond keeping track of the household in order to live a full and meaningful life.

Amen and two thumbs up

How is it any of your business what other women do? I have no desire to judge other women’s choices, I only need to be happy with my own. Many SAHM are dedicated volunteers and make meaningful contributions to their communities, indeed making for a “full and meaningful life” as you describe.

[Anonymous]

I would rather have a wife than a husband.

- wife

[Anonymous]

Didn’t read all 28 pages of this post, but just saw this short comedian bit and thought it described my household

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ChxaR6LDcPB/?igshid=MDM4ZDc5MmU=

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would rather have a wife than a husband.

- wife

No you wouldn't. Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rates. You all aren't as easy to get along with as you think you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would rather have a wife than a husband.

- wife

No you wouldn't. Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rates. You all aren't as easy to get along with as you think you are.

Or perhaps we are easier. I would have divorced long ago if I thought that my husband and I could be friends and amicably co-parent. Maybe lesbians just don’t feel pressured to stay in relationships that aren’t working out. They aren’t afraid their partner is going to be vindictive or lash out against them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would rather have a wife than a husband.

- wife

No you wouldn't. Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rates. You all aren't as easy to get along with as you think you are.

Or perhaps we are easier. I would have divorced long ago if I thought that my husband and I could be friends and amicably co-parent. Maybe lesbians just don’t feel pressured to stay in relationships that aren’t working out. They aren’t afraid their partner is going to be vindictive or lash out against them.

If women are so great, why wouldn't it work out. Gay male marriages have the lowest divorce rates. Maybe everything shouldn't always be the man's fault?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Best decision I made in our marriage was to stay at home starting when our first of three was born. I saw the way things were going fairly early on and recognized that although I could “have it all” with a career - it was going to come at a cost trying to balance everything. Still happily married nearly 20 years later.

This is what I did too and while DH appreciated it for a long time, now that the kids are teens he is pressuring me to go back because I have "so much time" and yet he has no desire or willingness to change anything about his behavior. He's trying to make it about the money even though he makes 3x what he made when he was totally fine with my staying home, and we own our home and have college and retirement fully on track. Its quite the pickle and I'm not entirely sure how it will be resolved.

Well, do you have more time? Can you go back to work part-time? I have high schoolers and they require a lot less parental time than kids in elementary school.
I don't get your point. Your DH is working the same amount of hours, but your hours taking care of the kids has decreased. The amount of time taking care of house-related stuff presumably has stayed the same. So, the only variable that's changed is that you have more free time on your hands. Just own up to the fact that you don't want to work because you like not working and leading a leisurely life.

Why should she go back to work, when they have enough money and her DH likely still wouldn’t contribute to running the household? Then she would be in the exact situation we’re discussing here.

Why would anyone work? DH makes $2M+ and I still work and we have two children. I've always worked. If you can't find a part-time job in DC that is intellectually or emotionally fulfilling, especially when you don't need the income, then I would assume that you are limited in some way (intellectually, physically, emotionally, etc.). A grown woman, particularly one who has the benefit of a great education and no need for high income or benefits, should have some sense of, oh I don't know, giving to her community if she is capable. I have friends who are in their 50s with kids now in high school or college, who have not worked since having kids, and they are floundering. Women often need a higher sense of purpose beyond keeping track of the household in order to live a full and meaningful life.

Amen and two thumbs up

How is it any of your business what other women do? I have no desire to judge other women’s choices, I only need to be happy with my own. Many SAHM are dedicated volunteers and make meaningful contributions to their communities, indeed making for a “full and meaningful life” as you describe.

I'm on two not for profit boards. Just pointing out you can make meaningful contributions to your community while holding down a paid job. Everyone can of course make their own choices but you don't have to be a SAHM to volunteer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Best decision I made in our marriage was to stay at home starting when our first of three was born. I saw the way things were going fairly early on and recognized that although I could “have it all” with a career - it was going to come at a cost trying to balance everything. Still happily married nearly 20 years later.

This is what I did too and while DH appreciated it for a long time, now that the kids are teens he is pressuring me to go back because I have "so much time" and yet he has no desire or willingness to change anything about his behavior. He's trying to make it about the money even though he makes 3x what he made when he was totally fine with my staying home, and we own our home and have college and retirement fully on track. Its quite the pickle and I'm not entirely sure how it will be resolved.

Well, do you have more time? Can you go back to work part-time? I have high schoolers and they require a lot less parental time than kids in elementary school.
I don't get your point. Your DH is working the same amount of hours, but your hours taking care of the kids has decreased. The amount of time taking care of house-related stuff presumably has stayed the same. So, the only variable that's changed is that you have more free time on your hands. Just own up to the fact that you don't want to work because you like not working and leading a leisurely life.

Why should she go back to work, when they have enough money and her DH likely still wouldn’t contribute to running the household? Then she would be in the exact situation we’re discussing here.

Why would anyone work? DH makes $2M+ and I still work and we have two children. I've always worked. If you can't find a part-time job in DC that is intellectually or emotionally fulfilling, especially when you don't need the income, then I would assume that you are limited in some way (intellectually, physically, emotionally, etc.). A grown woman, particularly one who has the benefit of a great education and no need for high income or benefits, should have some sense of, oh I don't know, giving to her community if she is capable. I have friends who are in their 50s with kids now in high school or college, who have not worked since having kids, and they are floundering. Women often need a higher sense of purpose beyond keeping track of the household in order to live a full and meaningful life.

Amen and two thumbs up

How is it any of your business what other women do? I have no desire to judge other women’s choices, I only need to be happy with my own. Many SAHM are dedicated volunteers and make meaningful contributions to their communities, indeed making for a “full and meaningful life” as you describe.

I'm on two not for profit boards. Just pointing out you can make meaningful contributions to your community while holding down a paid job. Everyone can of course make their own choices but you don't have to be a SAHM to volunteer.

Lol I like how you think this is a meaningful contribution.