FCPS Appeals decision are out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes in practice giving the underdog kid extra help throughout their education life will yield a measure of success in closing the achievement gap. I think what people are really having trouble with here is the concept of what "closing the achievement gap" means and how "equity" is used to do that. Unfortunately, what you should be lobbying for as a parent of White/Asian origin whose kids are being left out is what a previous poster noted--incorporate a robust GenEd program so that you don't feel like your kids are "losing out" on an education. Whether you just arrived to this country from S. Korea or India isn't the issue. Chances are, your smart kid will get into a good college and earn a rewarding degree to become successful irrespective of AAP placement in elementary school. However, there's less empirical data that the same occurs for the H/AA kid that shows potential. Chances are, without giving them a leg up in the process, that kid's trajectory is not the same. It's not great to hear, I get that, but it is what is being discussed in all circles dealing with this issue.

There's a difference between giving an underdog kid extra help so they can merit the advanced classes vs. artificially boosting them into classes for which they are unqualified, watering down the class, and then inflating their grades so they look like they belong there. FCPS already has some programs that actually boost minority students and help them thrive in advanced courses. In theory, Young Scholars is supposed to function to give underdogs a leg up. Likewise, the middle school AVID program is designed to give disadvantaged students the help they need to meet the requirements of an honors class, which is great. FCPS has also been known to pressure minorities into taking AAP classes for which they are grossly unqualified and ultimately get like a 1 on the AP Exam. But since they're only rated on minority participation and not minority success, they're perfectly happy to use minority kids as props without actually helping them achieve.

As far as AAP goes, 3rd and 4th grade are very foundational. Pushing kids into faster paced math classes than they can handle is not beneficial to anyone. If the class moves too fast for the kid to fully and completely understand the content, then those comprehension gaps will ultimately cause problems. Likewise, kids who are not reading above grade level will be unable to fully engage with the AAP language arts curriculum. Additionally, in both cases, the teacher will have to water down the entire class for the kid who is behind. There is a limit to just how much differentiation the teacher can do within one classroom, and the bottom kids will generally require the lion's share of the teacher's attention.

We are all being speculative here and assuming the Hispanic or African American child who gained entry to AAP LIV is the one who is behind in reading level or can't advance quickly enough in math. I'm sure there are plenty of White and Asian kids who have the same issue. Will the White or Asian child who scores 150+ on the WISC have the same issue? Who knows! The child could still be bored out of their mind and completely disengaged. That child would really not benefit in FCPS's LIV AAP program, but that's not being discussed here at all. In certain countries, gifted/talented programs are stratified. Grades are sectioned with the most advanced kids in a particular section, the next tier of kids in a separate section and so on. Elementary schools have 4 sections generally per grade, from A (highest achievers/most gifted) to D (GenEd). And larger schools may have two of the same section to accommodate the student in the right section. There are many ways to really address the issue. I think FCPS picked one, which for the folks who are left out seems quite unfair. For the parents whose kids scored 150+, you really should investigate other modes of learning for your children. FCPS's AAP program is certainly not meant for your children. I would go further and say that you are stifling your child's potential by keeping them in AAP and thinking that will meet their needs.

[Anonymous]

Ugh. You're missing the point. FCPS kids who do not attend TJ will still receive a fabulous education. FCPS kids who are above grade level are unlikely to receive much of an education in elementary gen ed. That's why white and Asian parents are so desperate to get their kids into AAP, but also why white parents don't care so much about getting their kids into TJ.

Providing advanced math starting in 3rd in every school and stronger differentiated instruction in language arts to the advanced kids would alleviate a lot of the desperation people have to get their advanced kids into AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. You're missing the point. FCPS kids who do not attend TJ will still receive a fabulous education. FCPS kids who are above grade level are unlikely to receive much of an education in elementary gen ed. That's why white and Asian parents are so desperate to get their kids into AAP, but also why white parents don't care so much about getting their kids into TJ.

Providing advanced math starting in 3rd in every school and stronger differentiated instruction in language arts to the advanced kids would alleviate a lot of the desperation people have to get their advanced kids into AAP.

I think a poster noted that most advanced White or Asian child is getting advanced education through enrichment classes. There is more bragging rights for White and Asian parents that their kids are in LIV AAP, but that's about it. Let's not make LIV AAP something it is not. Outside of Advanced Math, LIV curriculum is laughable.

[Anonymous]

Outside classes are not really a thing at our center for any of the kids my boys hang out with—unless you are talking about music lessons or sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We are all being speculative here and assuming the Hispanic or African American child who gained entry to AAP LIV is the one who is behind in reading level or can't advance quickly enough in math. I'm sure there are plenty of White and Asian kids who have the same issue. Will the White or Asian child who scores 150+ on the WISC have the same issue? Who knows! The child could still be bored out of their mind and completely disengaged. That child would really not benefit in FCPS's LIV AAP program, but that's not being discussed here at all. In certain countries, gifted/talented programs are stratified. Grades are sectioned with the most advanced kids in a particular section, the next tier of kids in a separate section and so on. Elementary schools have 4 sections generally per grade, from A (highest achievers/most gifted) to D (GenEd). And larger schools may have two of the same section to accommodate the student in the right section. There are many ways to really address the issue. I think FCPS picked one, which for the folks who are left out seems quite unfair. For the parents whose kids scored 150+, you really should investigate other modes of learning for your children. FCPS's AAP program is certainly not meant for your children. I would go further and say that you are stifling your child's potential by keeping them in AAP and thinking that will meet their needs.

I'm not assuming that Hispanic or AA kids who get accepted into AAP are definitely behind in reading or math. A few PPs have suggested that kids of target racial groups who are behind in math or language arts should still get pushed into AAP in the name of diversity. I think due to the nature of AAP, kids should have to be above grade in both math and language arts to be admitted.

Regarding the bolded, I completely agree! AAP is not going to be a good fit for kids with an IQ above 140 who are several grade levels ahead. I wonder if part of the reason some are being rejected is that the kid is too advanced to be a good fit in AAP, and that the kid would be better served with homeschooling or private school. If AAP has a limited number of spots available, in a weird way, it almost makes sense to give the spot to a less advanced kid who might benefit from the program than a kid too advanced to really benefit.

[Anonymous]

Why does closing the achievement gap mean RAISING the achievement gap for one group and lowering it for another? Isn't that taking it even further apart?? LOWER it for the URM. But don't RAISE it for Asian Americans!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TJ and AAP aren't analogous here. Kids who have the aptitude to handle TJ but aren't accepted into TJ will still have a full load of AP/IB classes available at their base schools and will still have excellent college prospects.

Kids who have the aptitude for AAP but aren't accepted will not be given a good education in gen ed at most FCPS schools. They will be bored, unchallenged, and largely ignored by the teacher throughout elementary school.

Says someone without a high schooler. In middle school there are honors classes and there is no AAP math, only honors math. By high school there are just as many nonAAP kids taking AP classes as there are former AAP kids. All the kids listed on this thread who were rejected will be just as prepared as the AAP kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh. You're missing the point. FCPS kids who do not attend TJ will still receive a fabulous education. FCPS kids who are above grade level are unlikely to receive much of an education in elementary gen ed. That's why white and Asian parents are so desperate to get their kids into AAP, but also why white parents don't care so much about getting their kids into TJ.

Providing advanced math starting in 3rd in every school and stronger differentiated instruction in language arts to the advanced kids would alleviate a lot of the desperation people have to get their advanced kids into AAP.

I think a poster noted that most advanced White or Asian child is getting advanced education through enrichment classes. There is more bragging rights for White and Asian parents that their kids are in LIV AAP, but that's about it. Let's not make LIV AAP something it is not. Outside of Advanced Math, LIV curriculum is laughable.

+1 And most school have compacted math in elementary that allows nonAAP kids to be a year ahead in math anyway, so it really is about the parent's ego or a misguided belief that AAP is a rigorous academic program. The language arts in AAP was abysmal. My advice to the parents whose kids were found ineligible, supplement with high quality workbooks and your kid will get more than what AAP offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
How was it possible for Asians (many of whom are relatively recent immigrants with no social status or connections and English being a foreign language to them) to overcome the "achievement gap" with similar obstacles and discrimination faced by Hispanics and blacks in America? Don't say only elites cam to US because clearly that is not the case- most Asian immigrants came to US for economic reasons.

Didn't they overcome the gap by working hard and studying hard or maybe even harder? Do you want to try going to S. Korea and try to become one of the top students there when you do not speak Korean? How much extra effort and studying would that take? So mow we want to discourage hard working and hard studying?

US is the laughing stock of the world now because we moved away from merit based system too much in the last several decades among other reasons.

The difference is Asians chose to come here and AA didnt. Asians were not subjected to the same psychological warfare endured by AA through slavery and racism. The genes of the gifted and talented Asians could be passed down to generations whereas the smartest and gifted AA were lynched and murdered. Success and Independence were rewarded in the Asians while entire "black wallstreet" towns were burned. The government didnt inject Asian communities with drugs but destroyed generations of AA families by injecting black communities with cocaine.

These differences in experiences of ethnic groups in America is most profoundly observed in Nigerian Americans which are the most educated and successful immigrant group in the US. If you really want to evaluate the AA achievement gap, the real question is why are black immigrants the most educated and successful immigrants in the US while black americans (who had to endure the sins of this nation) are struggling to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Do most schools have advanced math starting in 3rd? A lot seem to wait until 5th or even 6th. In some schools, advanced math isn’t even it’s own class, but rather it’s a 10 kid grouping within a regular math class. When this is done, the kids aren’t receiving a true advanced math class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why does closing the achievement gap mean RAISING the achievement gap for one group and lowering it for another? Isn't that taking it even further apart?? LOWER it for the URM. But don't RAISE it for Asian Americans!

You're not actually raising the threshold for the Asian or White child. You're creating a bell curve for White population and Asian population, and certain White or Asian children may be 'screened out' based on a peer comparison because they are on the very high end +2SD or into +3SD (as a WISC score of 150+ suggests) or didn't receive as good of an overall rating as compared to the other White or Asians against which they were compared. For the +3SD, the parents should really be looking elsewhere as some posters have noted here. FCPS is not the right setting to serve these children and hopefully the parents have some understanding of this. The reason for the screening out the high end of the curve is to serve the White, Asian, Hispanic and AA population that are relatively comparable. Though even in this scenario, the population of White and Asian accepted into the program score much higher than Hispanic and Asian.

All of this is also largely predicated on demographics of the school, both for feeder and center schools. If you're in Colvin Run or Churchill territory, you're looking at Hispanic/AA population at approx 5% and 10%, respectively, for the center schools and the feeder schools. Think about that! We are talking combined ethnicities. You have a very small pool of Hispanic or African Americans who will be considered for AAP. Compare that to Mosby Woods and the feeder schools for MW, where the range of Hispanic/AA go from 20% to 35% (sometimes equivalent to the number of Asians). Is it possible that FCPS screened out more Asian or White kids in Mosby Woods center based LIV program compared to that of Colvin Run or Churchill? It's most likely what occurred. As an Asian or White in the MW center/feeder schools, your competition is also a lot stiffer. You're competing for a seat that is being challenged by not only more Hispanic/AA representation (since FCPS won't be able to meet their quotas in schools like Colvin Run or Churchill or other few), but also a stiffer White and Asian population. Your Asian kid might have gotten a 140 CoGAT and 2F. The other Asian child received a 136 on CoGAT but a 4Cs. My bet is that the latter Asian child getting through but the former getting rejected. You may follow up with the WISC, but if most of the spots are already gone at the center, it makes it hard for the appeals process to work in your favor. Even with a high WISC score. I think that's why when FCPS says they look at AAP admissions "holistically," we really should think much bigger picture than an individual's packet. Their holistic approach is noting some much larger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why does closing the achievement gap mean RAISING the achievement gap for one group and lowering it for another? Isn't that taking it even further apart?? LOWER it for the URM. But don't RAISE it for Asian Americans!

You're not actually raising the threshold for the Asian or White child. You're creating a bell curve for White population and Asian population, and certain White or Asian children may be 'screened out' based on a peer comparison because they are on the very high end +2SD or into +3SD (as a WISC score of 150+ suggests) or didn't receive as good of an overall rating as compared to the other White or Asians against which they were compared. For the +3SD, the parents should really be looking elsewhere as some posters have noted here. FCPS is not the right setting to serve these children and hopefully the parents have some understanding of this. The reason for the screening out the high end of the curve is to serve the White, Asian, Hispanic and AA population that are relatively comparable. Though even in this scenario, the population of White and Asian accepted into the program score much higher than Hispanic and Asian.

All of this is also largely predicated on demographics of the school, both for feeder and center schools. If you're in Colvin Run or Churchill territory, you're looking at Hispanic/AA population at approx 5% and 10%, respectively, for the center schools and the feeder schools. Think about that! We are talking combined ethnicities. You have a very small pool of Hispanic or African Americans who will be considered for AAP. Compare that to Mosby Woods and the feeder schools for MW, where the range of Hispanic/AA go from 20% to 35% (sometimes equivalent to the number of Asians). Is it possible that FCPS screened out more Asian or White kids in Mosby Woods center based LIV program compared to that of Colvin Run or Churchill? It's most likely what occurred. As an Asian or White in the MW center/feeder schools, your competition is also a lot stiffer. You're competing for a seat that is being challenged by not only more Hispanic/AA representation (since FCPS won't be able to meet their quotas in schools like Colvin Run or Churchill or other few), but also a stiffer White and Asian population. Your Asian kid might have gotten a 140 CoGAT and 2F. The other Asian child received a 136 on CoGAT but a 4Cs. My bet is that the latter Asian child getting through but the former getting rejected. You may follow up with the WISC, but if most of the spots are already gone at the center, it makes it hard for the appeals process to work in your favor. Even with a high WISC score. I think that's why when FCPS says they look at AAP admissions "holistically," we really should think much bigger picture than an individual's packet. Their holistic approach is noting some much larger.

*African American

[Anonymous]

Our DC's AAP center was very diverse. White Oaks

[Anonymous]

Competition for whites and Asians to get into MWES is not at all stiff. Generally, a 120-ish Cogat and decent but not great GBRS is all you need. The center is overflowing with mediocre white and Asian kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do most schools have advanced math starting in 3rd? A lot seem to wait until 5th or even 6th. In some schools, advanced math isn’t even it’s own class, but rather it’s a 10 kid grouping within a regular math class. When this is done, the kids aren’t receiving a true advanced math class.

I’d be interested to know this. My kids’ school doesn’t and it’s apparent why some parents are desperate to get their kids into the center. My older kid is at the center but my younger two, who had high 120s scores on the NNAT and CogAt, are at the base. We supplement at home because they’re definitely coasting. I’m glad I saved most of the math worksheets and stuff from our older kid.