"Opening up" means risking your life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And if that takes another six months?

If it takes another six months then I suggest that you vote for Biden due to Trump's inability to manage the epidemic better because it should not take another six months.

I don't know what you want me to say. I think I have explained this very clearly. I do not think we can safely reopen the economy now. I think the loudest voices to reopen are not the ones who will be taking the risks and that they are putting their financial interests ahead of the health of others. I am arguing that the health risks of reopening be decreased to the point that those calling for reopening are comfortable accepting that risk for themselves and their families. I don't think that is an unreasonable position or one that is hard to understand.

Jeff, you have an unreasonable expectation of when we can reopen. According to you you want near universal testing before opening Germany South Korea Sweden aren't doing this. Not only that the testing would have to occur multiple times a week according to you.

I'm done trying to talk sense into you for the last time social distancing with masks is the way to go. Otherwise like I said, your scenario might happen in 2021. Keeping everyone home for the next 6 months is ridiculous.

All you need to say is, "I am prepared to risk my health and the health of my family members by exposing ourselves in current conditions". But, you don't appear to be willing to say that. Rather, you seem to be prepared to protect yourself, your family, and your finances while others take the risk.

Everyone does this when they go to the grocery store already. I went to the grocery store on Friday. I wear a mask and social distance. No problem. This fear is completely ridiculous and unnecessary.

What are your working conditions? If we reopen the economy are you going to be exposed to people or will you continue teleworking and social distancing while others take the risk? There is a big difference between a quick trip to the grocery store and all day, every day, exposure to the public.

Jeff, I'm not sure why you keep saying this. Isn't it obvious that many of us disagree with your assessment of how dangerous this virus is?

Not Jeff. Your disagreement is spurious an innumerate, so it's not worth even responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test everyone. Activate FEMA and Nat Guard and USPS and volunteer workers to deliver food to those in need at home. Get all negative testers back to work and all positive testers stay at home/hospital till clear. Do it. Now.

If you add in getting PPE and hygeine measures to all the front-line workers (transit, utility, service sector) then I'm on board with this plan.

[Anonymous]

Jeff's logic doesnt make sense. On one hand he doesnt want death, yet in another thread he was talking about a walk in Rock Creek Park the other day. Another hypocritical statement with political overtures I'm guessing

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, I'm not sure why you keep saying this. Isn't it obvious that many of us disagree with your assessment of how dangerous this virus is?

There are quite a few dead people who shared your assessment. Good luck not joining them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
??? Well there's no where to go. But if everything opened up tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eye about taking my kids to Busch Gardens. I don't understand why you think those of us who think things need to be reopened would find it too scary to go out. If we did we would not be in favor of reopening so soon.

If you would go to Busch Gardens tomorrow, you have a completely different understanding of the dangers of the virus than I do. Are you completely unaware of the spread of COVID-19 resulting from spring break, various church services, funerals, and so on? But, good luck to you.

Has FL Spring Break been traced to any localized outbreaks? FL rates remain well below the national average, and there is absolutely zero evidence it's hiding a NY-sized catastrophe (even if you think, as I do, adding in the nursing homes might increase death rates by 50-100%.)

Mardi Gras almost certainly seems to have been the cause of LA's outbreak, but why FL didn't spike up a la LA (maybe it's b/c Spring Break is more of a daytime thing and the UV rays zapped the virus?) is an question the pro-shutdown folks have to answer. Likewise, the pro-open folks have to answer how they'd handle 20 Smithfield food outbreaks.

It's cute that you think the "pro-open" folks have anything approaching an evidentiary basis to answer the question. On the one side, we have people trying in good faith to answer a very difficult question in an emergency. On the other side, you have people who just want to p)wn the libs.

I think there might be some thoughtful folks among the "how can we sustain this shutdown" crowd. I'm not doubting for a second that the Trump humpers would be singing a different tune if it were Hillary as President or the moment Biden might take over. Then it'll be "WHAR MASKS? WHAR PPE? WHAI STUF OPEN?" from that crowd, and we all know it.

I'll admit seeing some FB posts from my center-left establishment friends saying "keep it locked down FOREVAH" started making me doubt THAT wisdom. But seeing Trump humper friends scream about how they won't eat Chinese food again (I'm not kidding) makes me realize 70-80% of the pro-opening crowd (or call them "pro-rapid infection" crowd) is just worried about Trump's re-election chances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test everyone. Activate FEMA and Nat Guard and USPS and volunteer workers to deliver food to those in need at home. Get all negative testers back to work and all positive testers stay at home/hospital till clear. Do it. Now.

You just can't mandate testing "everyone".
This ain't communist china, thank God.

Personal responsibility is essential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test everyone. Activate FEMA and Nat Guard and USPS and volunteer workers to deliver food to those in need at home. Get all negative testers back to work and all positive testers stay at home/hospital till clear. Do it. Now.

You just can't mandate testing "everyone".
This ain't communist china, thank God.

Personal responsibility is essential.

Oh ffs. Personal responsibility can't change the supply chains. And yes, we very much can mandate testing for everyone, just like vaccines can be mandated. If you don't want to be tested, then you can continue staying at home.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff's logic doesnt make sense. On one hand he doesnt want death, yet in another thread he was talking about a walk in Rock Creek Park the other day. Another hypocritical statement with political overtures I'm guessing

Yes, I walked in Rock Creek Park because daily exercise is necessary to maintain good health. I stayed more than six feet from anyone else. When I saw that the park became crowded, I began wearing a mask during walks, while still maintaining a safe distance from others. Then, I hurt my foot and haven't been able to walk for a few days.

If we could reopen the economy while allowing everyone to maintain similar conditions as I do on my walks, I would strongly support reopening. But, in fact, we can't so I don't. That is consistency rather than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is demanding that the working class risk its health while you continue to protect yours.

[Anonymous]

I worry about the risks of opening too soon and certainly opening without widespread testing available and in play.

At the same time, I’m really worried about the impact of prolonged quarantine on communities already struggling. There’s a public health effect of the financial devastation. And I worry that it may tip the scales for people to either reopen prematurely and/or favor Trump and his “return to work” message - hurting the people who are most vulnerable all around (economically and health wise).

This article from WaPo does a good job describing challenges that many of us in the DC area don’t experience bc we are buffered by federal employment and affluence (though I know working and middle class families are certainly suffering in this area too).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/first-the-coronavirus-pandemic-took-their-jobs-then-it-wiped-out-their-health-insurance/2020/04/18/1c2cb5bc-7d7c-11ea-8013-1b6da0e4a2b7_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
??? Well there's no where to go. But if everything opened up tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eye about taking my kids to Busch Gardens. I don't understand why you think those of us who think things need to be reopened would find it too scary to go out. If we did we would not be in favor of reopening so soon.

If you would go to Busch Gardens tomorrow, you have a completely different understanding of the dangers of the virus than I do. Are you completely unaware of the spread of COVID-19 resulting from spring break, various church services, funerals, and so on? But, good luck to you.

Has FL Spring Break been traced to any localized outbreaks? FL rates remain well below the national average, and there is absolutely zero evidence it's hiding a NY-sized catastrophe (even if you think, as I do, adding in the nursing homes might increase death rates by 50-100%.)

Mardi Gras almost certainly seems to have been the cause of LA's outbreak, but why FL didn't spike up a la LA (maybe it's b/c Spring Break is more of a daytime thing and the UV rays zapped the virus?) is an question the pro-shutdown folks have to answer. Likewise, the pro-open folks have to answer how they'd handle 20 Smithfield food outbreaks.

It's cute that you think the "pro-open" folks have anything approaching an evidentiary basis to answer the question. On the one side, we have people trying in good faith to answer a very difficult question in an emergency. On the other side, you have people who just want to p)wn the libs.

I think there might be some thoughtful folks among the "how can we sustain this shutdown" crowd. I'm not doubting for a second that the Trump humpers would be singing a different tune if it were Hillary as President or the moment Biden might take over. Then it'll be "WHAR MASKS? WHAR PPE? WHAI STUF OPEN?" from that crowd, and we all know it.

I'll admit seeing some FB posts from my center-left establishment friends saying "keep it locked down FOREVAH" started making me doubt THAT wisdom. But seeing Trump humper friends scream about how they won't eat Chinese food again (I'm not kidding) makes me realize 70-80% of the pro-opening crowd (or call them "pro-rapid infection" crowd) is just worried about Trump's re-election chances.

What you're missing is that everyone who is thoughtful is worrying about "how can we sustain this shutdown." EVERYONE. It's Fox/Trump/Brietbart who are turning this into a culture-wars type "team shutdown v. team economy." Just like they do with EVERYTHING. It's dishonest and has zero do to with facts on the ground and policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

It’s not an enormous assumption given the general confidence of actual scientists, as opposed to the worry from posters who don’t actually know anything except the fear that is consuming them or their political agenda. Testing, testing, testing is not a plan—it’s a cliched slogan at this point. Widespread testing is key, but it must be combined with quarantining and contact tracing.

Exactly. Testing in and of itself is useless.

Not really. Testing allows us to know what areas are "clean" and what areas are infected. It allows us to know who already has antibodies and who is an asymptomatic carrier. That is not useless information. It is information that can help maintain safety and also "open up parts of the economy."

So, are you suggesting that the government mandate testing for everyone? And, once that testing is done, that only those with antibodies be allowed to work?
And, there is no hard evidence that antibodies provide protection for this virus.

You are mixing up virus and antibody testing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I worry about the risks of opening too soon and certainly opening without widespread testing available and in play.

At the same time, I’m really worried about the impact of prolonged quarantine on communities already struggling. There’s a public health effect of the financial devastation. And I worry that it may tip the scales for people to either reopen prematurely and/or favor Trump and his “return to work” message - hurting the people who are most vulnerable all around (economically and health wise).

This article from WaPo does a good job describing challenges that many of us in the DC area don’t experience bc we are buffered by federal employment and affluence (though I know working and middle class families are certainly suffering in this area too).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/first-the-coronavirus-pandemic-took-their-jobs-then-it-wiped-out-their-health-insurance/2020/04/18/1c2cb5bc-7d7c-11ea-8013-1b6da0e4a2b7_story.html

If you think Team Trump actually gaf about marginalized communities in DC, I have a bridge to sell you.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff's logic doesnt make sense. On one hand he doesnt want death, yet in another thread he was talking about a walk in Rock Creek Park the other day. Another hypocritical statement with political overtures I'm guessing

Yes, I walked in Rock Creek Park because daily exercise is necessary to maintain good health. I stayed more than six feet from anyone else. When I saw that the park became crowded, I began wearing a mask during walks, while still maintaining a safe distance from others. Then, I hurt my foot and haven't been able to walk for a few days.

If we could reopen the economy while allowing everyone to maintain similar conditions as I do on my walks, I would strongly support reopening. But, in fact, we can't so I don't. That is consistency rather than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is demanding that the working class risk its health while you continue to protect yours.

Walking in Rock Creek Park is a very low-risk activity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test everyone. Activate FEMA and Nat Guard and USPS and volunteer workers to deliver food to those in need at home. Get all negative testers back to work and all positive testers stay at home/hospital till clear. Do it. Now.

You just can't mandate testing "everyone".
This ain't communist china, thank God.

Personal responsibility is essential.

Oh ffs. Personal responsibility can't change the supply chains. And yes, we very much can mandate testing for everyone, just like vaccines can be mandated. If you don't want to be tested, then you can continue staying at home.

Are you planning to padlock my house?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I worry about the risks of opening too soon and certainly opening without widespread testing available and in play.

At the same time, I’m really worried about the impact of prolonged quarantine on communities already struggling. There’s a public health effect of the financial devastation. And I worry that it may tip the scales for people to either reopen prematurely and/or favor Trump and his “return to work” message - hurting the people who are most vulnerable all around (economically and health wise).

This article from WaPo does a good job describing challenges that many of us in the DC area don’t experience bc we are buffered by federal employment and affluence (though I know working and middle class families are certainly suffering in this area too).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/first-the-coronavirus-pandemic-took-their-jobs-then-it-wiped-out-their-health-insurance/2020/04/18/1c2cb5bc-7d7c-11ea-8013-1b6da0e4a2b7_story.html

There is an even more devastating effect when all of the front line workers, all of the grocery store clerks, all of the food processer workers, all of the truck drivers etc are sick or dead. It is really easy for the average DCUM right winger to site in their living room asking others to take on daily risk because they are out of their job temporarily.