Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
was the IRA Catholic terrorism? its a terrorist group, and it was only partially successful, Northern Ireland is still occupied, Hamas is islamic terrorist in the same way Sinn Fien is Catholic. I'm sure that Hamas and the PLO would be perfectly ok with a similar settlement and abandon terrorist methods of warfare. I find it incredibly sad that people who are so appalled by antisemitism are purposefully fanning the flames of islamophobia. Like the group that is trying to get people upset by chants of Allah Akbar near the WTC, when we've come a long way and we know that Allah Akbar is not a terrorist statement. I went to Stone ridge in the 1980s/90s and most of the families there donated money and political lobbying efforts to the IRA, did you have problem with that? And I think the 10/7 attacks were beyond horrific, thats not the same as a car bomb but this is a natural result of colonialism and if you lived in Poland for 500 years, regardless of what they think, you are polish, you cant just move into your ancestors land. I have all kinds of sympathy for the Cherokee, I dont think they can move all the people in Georgia and Tennessee out of there and create a Cherokee state. The best we can do is give them money to purchase land in Georgia and be accepted as citizens of the United States. If they kept on chanting about the horrors of wounded knee and attacked us, well we were killing AIM members in the 1980s- its a bit hypocritical that we spend so much treasure propping up the middle eastern equivalent of a successful AIM movement.
I get what you're trying to say re: native Americans, but the fact is that they are all citizens of the US of A. There is no separate citizenship for the individual states in America. In my recollection, no one tried to offer Palestinians in the occupied territories Israeli citizenship.
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
It’s kept short because to me, it’s an obvious position. Of course I’m loathesome toward and unwilling to support or abide by Islamic terrorism. I think nearly everyone has that view.
Why I find it necessary to spend more time denouncing Israeli actions that amount to state-sponsored terrorism is because scumbags like you deny those actions even constitute terrorism, and try (feebly, thank god) to dissuade others from reading and learning about it. Because you desperately want to preserve and expand upon the status quo.
And while the emotional part of me understands the arguably defensible part of that motivation in your mind (supposed personal fears of existential threat to Jews), the rational part of me knows it’s just a miserable “I’m on top now, and ain’t nothing taking me off this high” oppressor’s dream come true for you, and one you won’t sit idly by while others seek to encourage peace amongst the regional players.
You WANT Israeli dominance. You WANT to see Israel crush anyone that tries to hold it accountable.
Not my problem. I take almost unimaginable satisfaction in knowing that peace with find its way to that region, with or without Israel’s cooperation. That train sings being stopped, darlin’. I hope it’s with Israel’s cooperation because it will come sooner and lying Islamophobic racists like you will be pelted with “I told you so” glances by frustrated global citizens who have been calling for it for years. But it will come one way or another.
So again in discussing Islamic terrorism, you have to talk about Jews and Israel. You wrote 2 sentences about how you loathe Islamic terrorism vs multiple paragraphs about Jews, Israel, Islamophobes, etc. I literally asked you “what are your feelings about Islamic terrorism?” and from that you accused me of wanting world dominance and Islamophobia. You are unhinged.
First of all, you should have no expectation that you can dictate what I discuss. Your directions fall on my deaf ears.
As a courtesy, I replied to the question. I was clear and direct. I don’t spend time discussing my opposition to Islamist terrorism because it’s unequivocal, nearly everyone agrees it should be absolute position taken by all, and I’ve seen literally nobody here defend it. There’s nothing further to say.
HOWEVER, scumbags like you defend, fight tooth-and-nail, and resort to literally every dirty trick in the book to sidetrack and disable any scrutiny of Israel’s actions. You are the problem. You are deranged. And again, to my great satisfaction, you are not my problem to deal with. You’re just a miserable, racist human being who defends state-sponsored terrorism.
Yet you spend paragraphs attacking Israel who is currently fighting a war on Islamist terrorism.
I hope you see why that it makes your denouncement of Islamist terrorism ring rather hollow when you spend so much time attacking Israel for fighting against such terror. One would think someone who so clearly opposes Islamist terrorism to support those fighting against it, otherwise one has to believe you either do support such terror, or have found yourself sucked so deep down the pro-Hamas misinformation rabbit hole that you have convinced yourself that supporting their “cause” is detached from supporting their Islamist terrorism. I do hope that it is the latter and one day you can find the truth and stand tall next to your Jewish brethren and neighbors in defense of the State of Israel.
I think you’re misunderstanding the fact that there can be two wrongs in a given conflict.
Without getting into a debate as to the “who started it first” question, it’s clear as day that (1) Islamist terrorism committed by Hamas and others is abhorrent and IS NOT a defensible way to accomplish any goals and (2) Israel, insofar as its actions for the past 76 years have been led by Zionists, HAS repeatedly engaged in conduct (both provoked and non-provoked) that likewise constitutes abhorrent, indefensible terrorism. The latter also constitutes flagrant violations of actual international law because Israel is and should be held to a higher standard as a nation state deserving of full recognition by all other countries.
Both parties ARE in the wrong. This isn’t “whatsboutism”. It’s reality.
DP... It IS whataboutism - and whataboutism is an old favorite of propagandists. And while there are elements of truth to what you are saying, it is ALSO true that you are very much using a tactic of whataboutism as a constant deflection from the much greater problem of Hamas. It is an absolute fact that this current bombing would not be happening if Hamas hadn't initiated it with their violent attack and no amount of complaining and handwaving and whataboutism you can do will ever make that go away. Ever. You are wasting your time here trying to accomplish that, yet whenever I pop on here for a few minutes to catch up I see the same old patterns and tactics of yours, going on and on and on and on for hours. Without convincing anyone, because everyone here sees right through you. Stop wasting your time.
Stop wasting our time - use less words in your flailing censorship campaign.
Here’s what you mean:
Stop “Israel bad, too” talk. Bibi no like, bubbie no like, too. Arab bad. Chosen people good. Stop telling truth. Bad for Zionism. Go away.
Are you having a nervous breakdown?
Does laughing at your desperate attempts to stop others from scrutinizing Israel’s actions constitute a nervous breakdown?
If so, yes. Maybe two of ‘em. But I think your DSM-V is broken.
Did you google DSM-V while jousting with imaginary windmills?
I clearly can’t compete with your Dollar Store Psy.D. from Loyola or whatever diploma mill spit you out, ready to take on the world and hurl amateur hour Dx insults at others.
I tried figuring out your symptoms
1. Stick up his ass
2. Auditory hallucinations
3. Paranoia (everyone is out to silence and cancel you, right?)
4. Hostile affect
5. inability to focus
6. Lack of reading comprehension
7. Delusions of grandeur
Unfortunately, my dollar store diploma is insufficient to diagnose a medical marvel such as you.. Get help, dude, you will feel better.
So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
It’s kept short because to me, it’s an obvious position. Of course I’m loathesome toward and unwilling to support or abide by Islamic terrorism. I think nearly everyone has that view.
Why I find it necessary to spend more time denouncing Israeli actions that amount to state-sponsored terrorism is because scumbags like you deny those actions even constitute terrorism, and try (feebly, thank god) to dissuade others from reading and learning about it. Because you desperately want to preserve and expand upon the status quo.
And while the emotional part of me understands the arguably defensible part of that motivation in your mind (supposed personal fears of existential threat to Jews), the rational part of me knows it’s just a miserable “I’m on top now, and ain’t nothing taking me off this high” oppressor’s dream come true for you, and one you won’t sit idly by while others seek to encourage peace amongst the regional players.
You WANT Israeli dominance. You WANT to see Israel crush anyone that tries to hold it accountable.
Not my problem. I take almost unimaginable satisfaction in knowing that peace with find its way to that region, with or without Israel’s cooperation. That train sings being stopped, darlin’. I hope it’s with Israel’s cooperation because it will come sooner and lying Islamophobic racists like you will be pelted with “I told you so” glances by frustrated global citizens who have been calling for it for years. But it will come one way or another.
So again in discussing Islamic terrorism, you have to talk about Jews and Israel. You wrote 2 sentences about how you loathe Islamic terrorism vs multiple paragraphs about Jews, Israel, Islamophobes, etc. I literally asked you “what are your feelings about Islamic terrorism?” and from that you accused me of wanting world dominance and Islamophobia. You are unhinged.
First of all, you should have no expectation that you can dictate what I discuss. Your directions fall on my deaf ears.
As a courtesy, I replied to the question. I was clear and direct. I don’t spend time discussing my opposition to Islamist terrorism because it’s unequivocal, nearly everyone agrees it should be absolute position taken by all, and I’ve seen literally nobody here defend it. There’s nothing further to say.
HOWEVER, scumbags like you defend, fight tooth-and-nail, and resort to literally every dirty trick in the book to sidetrack and disable any scrutiny of Israel’s actions. You are the problem. You are deranged. And again, to my great satisfaction, you are not my problem to deal with. You’re just a miserable, racist human being who defends state-sponsored terrorism.
Yet you spend paragraphs attacking Israel who is currently fighting a war on Islamist terrorism.
I hope you see why that it makes your denouncement of Islamist terrorism ring rather hollow when you spend so much time attacking Israel for fighting against such terror. One would think someone who so clearly opposes Islamist terrorism to support those fighting against it, otherwise one has to believe you either do support such terror, or have found yourself sucked so deep down the pro-Hamas misinformation rabbit hole that you have convinced yourself that supporting their “cause” is detached from supporting their Islamist terrorism. I do hope that it is the latter and one day you can find the truth and stand tall next to your Jewish brethren and neighbors in defense of the State of Israel.
I think you’re misunderstanding the fact that there can be two wrongs in a given conflict.
Without getting into a debate as to the “who started it first” question, it’s clear as day that (1) Islamist terrorism committed by Hamas and others is abhorrent and IS NOT a defensible way to accomplish any goals and (2) Israel, insofar as its actions for the past 76 years have been led by Zionists, HAS repeatedly engaged in conduct (both provoked and non-provoked) that likewise constitutes abhorrent, indefensible terrorism. The latter also constitutes flagrant violations of actual international law because Israel is and should be held to a higher standard as a nation state deserving of full recognition by all other countries.
Both parties ARE in the wrong. This isn’t “whatsboutism”. It’s reality.
DP... It IS whataboutism - and whataboutism is an old favorite of propagandists. And while there are elements of truth to what you are saying, it is ALSO true that you are very much using a tactic of whataboutism as a constant deflection from the much greater problem of Hamas. It is an absolute fact that this current bombing would not be happening if Hamas hadn't initiated it with their violent attack and no amount of complaining and handwaving and whataboutism you can do will ever make that go away. Ever. You are wasting your time here trying to accomplish that, yet whenever I pop on here for a few minutes to catch up I see the same old patterns and tactics of yours, going on and on and on and on for hours. Without convincing anyone, because everyone here sees right through you. Stop wasting your time.
Stop wasting our time - use less words in your flailing censorship campaign.
Here’s what you mean:
Stop “Israel bad, too” talk. Bibi no like, bubbie no like, too. Arab bad. Chosen people good. Stop telling truth. Bad for Zionism. Go away.
Are you having a nervous breakdown?
Does laughing at your desperate attempts to stop others from scrutinizing Israel’s actions constitute a nervous breakdown?
If so, yes. Maybe two of ‘em. But I think your DSM-V is broken.
I agree. The slanderous accusations of antisemitism and invocations of the Holocaust are being used to give Israel cover to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians. Shulamit Aloni confessed that it's a "trick," and it's disappointing to see that this dishonest approach is still being used to try to silence open discourse and in the service of war crimes.
Israel Hayom reports: “Eleven senior members of Iran's Revolutionary Guards in Syria were killed in an overnight attack on Damascus International Airport, the Saudi Al-Hadath network reported Friday, citing sources.“
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
was the IRA Catholic terrorism? its a terrorist group, and it was only partially successful, Northern Ireland is still occupied, Hamas is islamic terrorist in the same way Sinn Fien is Catholic. I'm sure that Hamas and the PLO would be perfectly ok with a similar settlement and abandon terrorist methods of warfare. I find it incredibly sad that people who are so appalled by antisemitism are purposefully fanning the flames of islamophobia. Like the group that is trying to get people upset by chants of Allah Akbar near the WTC, when we've come a long way and we know that Allah Akbar is not a terrorist statement. I went to Stone ridge in the 1980s/90s and most of the families there donated money and political lobbying efforts to the IRA, did you have problem with that? And I think the 10/7 attacks were beyond horrific, thats not the same as a car bomb but this is a natural result of colonialism and if you lived in Poland for 500 years, regardless of what they think, you are polish, you cant just move into your ancestors land. I have all kinds of sympathy for the Cherokee, I dont think they can move all the people in Georgia and Tennessee out of there and create a Cherokee state. The best we can do is give them money to purchase land in Georgia and be accepted as citizens of the United States. If they kept on chanting about the horrors of wounded knee and attacked us, well we were killing AIM members in the 1980s- its a bit hypocritical that we spend so much treasure propping up the middle eastern equivalent of a successful AIM movement.
This is false equivalency.
Nothing that the IRA or Sinn Fein ever did comes close to matching the scale and the brutality of the atrocities committed by Hamas after they invaded Israel. Same with the Irgun. Their bombing of the King David Hotel killed about 90 people of all nationalities. But attacking the headquarters for the British Mandate is not remotely the same as murdering and torturing and brutally raping hundreds of innocent young people at a music festival. You mention Native Americans. In the 1600s, some tribes fought back and over time killed about 300 colonists. The worst massacre committed by the US Army during the Indian Wars is about 250 people in Idaho.
None of this compares to what Hamas did on 10/7. More than 1200 murdered. Thousands more injured. Hundreds brutally tortured. Dozens of women subject to extreme sexual violence. Hundreds kidnapped, including babies, the elderly, and many young women.
And for what?
How does mass sadism advance any people's interests?
It doesn't matter anymore.
After the attacks on 10/7, any hope for an independent Palestine is gone. It's not happening in anyone's lifetime. Palestinians had their opportunities in 1937, 1948, and 1993. Instead they've chosen war and Islamic extremism. Palestinians in Gaza made a terrible decision choosing Hamas. And they will be paying the consequences for generations.
Anonymous wrote:So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion.
The US may have applied pressure, or maybe not. Going over Congress to keep sending weapons doesn't seem to me as appropriate pressure.
IDF has not changed tactics. There are over a hundred people in Gaza killed each day, sometimes several hundreds.
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
was the IRA Catholic terrorism? its a terrorist group, and it was only partially successful, Northern Ireland is still occupied, Hamas is islamic terrorist in the same way Sinn Fien is Catholic. I'm sure that Hamas and the PLO would be perfectly ok with a similar settlement and abandon terrorist methods of warfare. I find it incredibly sad that people who are so appalled by antisemitism are purposefully fanning the flames of islamophobia. Like the group that is trying to get people upset by chants of Allah Akbar near the WTC, when we've come a long way and we know that Allah Akbar is not a terrorist statement. I went to Stone ridge in the 1980s/90s and most of the families there donated money and political lobbying efforts to the IRA, did you have problem with that? And I think the 10/7 attacks were beyond horrific, thats not the same as a car bomb but this is a natural result of colonialism and if you lived in Poland for 500 years, regardless of what they think, you are polish, you cant just move into your ancestors land. I have all kinds of sympathy for the Cherokee, I dont think they can move all the people in Georgia and Tennessee out of there and create a Cherokee state. The best we can do is give them money to purchase land in Georgia and be accepted as citizens of the United States. If they kept on chanting about the horrors of wounded knee and attacked us, well we were killing AIM members in the 1980s- its a bit hypocritical that we spend so much treasure propping up the middle eastern equivalent of a successful AIM movement.
I get what you're trying to say re: native Americans, but the fact is that they are all citizens of the US of A. There is no separate citizenship for the individual states in America. In my recollection, no one tried to offer Palestinians in the occupied territories Israeli citizenship.
Palestinians who live in Israel do get citizenship. There is a Palestinian member of the Knesset.
Those who live in Gaza want to slaughter Israelis and destroy the state of Israel - do you see how maybe they wouldn't get citizenship?
Anonymous wrote:So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion.
The US may have applied pressure, or maybe not. Going over Congress to keep sending weapons doesn't seem to me as appropriate pressure.
IDF has not changed tactics. There are over a hundred people in Gaza killed each day, sometimes several hundreds.
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
was the IRA Catholic terrorism? its a terrorist group, and it was only partially successful, Northern Ireland is still occupied, Hamas is islamic terrorist in the same way Sinn Fien is Catholic. I'm sure that Hamas and the PLO would be perfectly ok with a similar settlement and abandon terrorist methods of warfare. I find it incredibly sad that people who are so appalled by antisemitism are purposefully fanning the flames of islamophobia. Like the group that is trying to get people upset by chants of Allah Akbar near the WTC, when we've come a long way and we know that Allah Akbar is not a terrorist statement. I went to Stone ridge in the 1980s/90s and most of the families there donated money and political lobbying efforts to the IRA, did you have problem with that? And I think the 10/7 attacks were beyond horrific, thats not the same as a car bomb but this is a natural result of colonialism and if you lived in Poland for 500 years, regardless of what they think, you are polish, you cant just move into your ancestors land. I have all kinds of sympathy for the Cherokee, I dont think they can move all the people in Georgia and Tennessee out of there and create a Cherokee state. The best we can do is give them money to purchase land in Georgia and be accepted as citizens of the United States. If they kept on chanting about the horrors of wounded knee and attacked us, well we were killing AIM members in the 1980s- its a bit hypocritical that we spend so much treasure propping up the middle eastern equivalent of a successful AIM movement.
I get what you're trying to say re: native Americans, but the fact is that they are all citizens of the US of A. There is no separate citizenship for the individual states in America. In my recollection, no one tried to offer Palestinians in the occupied territories Israeli citizenship.
Palestinians who live in Israel do get citizenship. There is a Palestinian member of the Knesset.
Those who live in Gaza want to slaughter Israelis and destroy the state of Israel - do you see how maybe they wouldn't get citizenship?
Anonymous wrote:So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion.
The US may have applied pressure, or maybe not. Going over Congress to keep sending weapons doesn't seem to me as appropriate pressure.
IDF has not changed tactics. There are over a hundred people in Gaza killed each day, sometimes several hundreds.
no, actually, they have changed.
Yes they started killing more Palestinians civilians and admitting the targeting of refugees camps. It is pretty clear the goal is to level Gaza and kill or displace the 2.3 million Palestinians. Biden fully supported Bibi and laughs at the 23,000 Palestinians dead. Can’t wait to vote against Biden.
Anonymous wrote:So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion.
The US may have applied pressure, or maybe not. Going over Congress to keep sending weapons doesn't seem to me as appropriate pressure.
IDF has not changed tactics. There are over a hundred people in Gaza killed each day, sometimes several hundreds.
no, actually, they have changed.
Yes they started killing more Palestinians civilians and admitting the targeting of refugees camps. It is pretty clear the goal is to level Gaza and kill or displace the 2.3 million Palestinians. Biden fully supported Bibi and laughs at the 23,000 Palestinians dead. Can’t wait to vote against Biden.
Please do! Can’t wait for Trump to take care of Hamas and it’s supporters.
Anonymous wrote:So to revisit this, it does indeed seem like after the US applied pressure, the IDF adjusted certain tactics and the Hamas-reported casualty counts stopped growing by leaps and bounds.
I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion.
The US may have applied pressure, or maybe not. Going over Congress to keep sending weapons doesn't seem to me as appropriate pressure.
IDF has not changed tactics. There are over a hundred people in Gaza killed each day, sometimes several hundreds.
no, actually, they have changed.
Yes they started killing more Palestinians civilians and admitting the targeting of refugees camps. It is pretty clear the goal is to level Gaza and kill or displace the 2.3 million Palestinians. Biden fully supported Bibi and laughs at the 23,000 Palestinians dead. Can’t wait to vote against Biden.
Are the launching rockets from those "refugee camps"? Holding hostages there? Hiding tunnels underneath? Because if they are, then blame Hamas for using their women and children as cover.
Remember that returned hostages are saying they were held in families' apartments. A UNRWA school teacher was one of their jailors. One of the hospital chiefs in a hospital where a hostage was held was himself a Hamas officer. Hamas fighters are using ambulances to get around. This bright line between civilians and combatants doesn't neatly exist in Gaza, unfortunately.
But facts don't matter to propagandists. You'll allege that Israel lies about all of this while conveniently forgetting to acknowledge who Hamas are because it won't suit the narrative you are here to force on us.
Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.
Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”
It’s certifiable
It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?
It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.
This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."
I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.
DP
Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.
Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.
That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.
Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.
Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.
Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?
The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.
DP
The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).
I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.
You just did call everyone involved a liar.
I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.
DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.
Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.
In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.
Exactly how mental are you???
The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”
And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?
Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.
Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.
This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.
Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.
you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.
Feeling person, we get it.
I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.
That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?
Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.
Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.
That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.
All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.
If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?
Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.
Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?
Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.
“Status quo doesn’t have to be changed”.
Not PP but of course not. However, how well has status quo worked so far? To me the escalating violence back and forth is unsustainable.
It isn't a back and forth however. Palestinians are not happy that they are not getting what they want. We don't always get what we want and doesn't require a change of the status quo. They can keep on fighting for the next 200 years and keep on being pushed back, getting nothing, if they so desire. Life choices, we all make them.
This is a very callous take on the aspirations of millions of people who have been ethnically cleansed. I remember white South Africans saying the same about people of color -- their coldness, their absolute belief in their own racial superiority, their smugness. Whites had all the power for years, but you can't repress people indefinitely. The arc of the world is toward equality.
Who has talked about racial superiority? You are turning a land battle into a bunch of things thst is not. You want a piece of land for you and your family, can't have it, and are calling people racist for it.
The “I’m not even Jewish” and “your feelings are not even real things so what do you want us to do about it?” person, whose entire schtick involves shrugging off other posts now hundreds of times with a blasé defense of the status quo, reporting for 24/7 duty.
Doing their noble part to ensure that no progress is made in this never ending conflict because the status quo is their primary aim, followed by further land grabs for Israel. So if everyone who is reasonable and civilized and capable of compassion can just shut the F up and allow this person to go to sleep after 12 straight weeks of spirited defense of racism, state-sponsored Zionist terrorism and apartheid statecraft, that would be kindly appreciated. /s
What are your feelings on Islamic terrorism?
Loathe all forms of terrorism (including state-sponsored and settler driven) and believe all such forms should be eradicated.
It’s interesting though that you can go on very long, very specific tirades about Zionism, but when asked about Islamic terrorism you do not mention it by name nor can you speak about without bringing it back to Israel. Very telling.
was the IRA Catholic terrorism? its a terrorist group, and it was only partially successful, Northern Ireland is still occupied, Hamas is islamic terrorist in the same way Sinn Fien is Catholic. I'm sure that Hamas and the PLO would be perfectly ok with a similar settlement and abandon terrorist methods of warfare. I find it incredibly sad that people who are so appalled by antisemitism are purposefully fanning the flames of islamophobia. Like the group that is trying to get people upset by chants of Allah Akbar near the WTC, when we've come a long way and we know that Allah Akbar is not a terrorist statement. I went to Stone ridge in the 1980s/90s and most of the families there donated money and political lobbying efforts to the IRA, did you have problem with that? And I think the 10/7 attacks were beyond horrific, thats not the same as a car bomb but this is a natural result of colonialism and if you lived in Poland for 500 years, regardless of what they think, you are polish, you cant just move into your ancestors land. I have all kinds of sympathy for the Cherokee, I dont think they can move all the people in Georgia and Tennessee out of there and create a Cherokee state. The best we can do is give them money to purchase land in Georgia and be accepted as citizens of the United States. If they kept on chanting about the horrors of wounded knee and attacked us, well we were killing AIM members in the 1980s- its a bit hypocritical that we spend so much treasure propping up the middle eastern equivalent of a successful AIM movement.
I get what you're trying to say re: native Americans, but the fact is that they are all citizens of the US of A. There is no separate citizenship for the individual states in America. In my recollection, no one tried to offer Palestinians in the occupied territories Israeli citizenship.
Palestinians who live in Israel do get citizenship. There is a Palestinian member of the Knesset.
Those who live in Gaza want to slaughter Israelis and destroy the state of Israel - do you see how maybe they wouldn't get citizenship?
lol now do West Bank.
And please get us a straight answer already where "Israel" is. Because Bibi, Bezalel and Itamar have differing ideas, and if you ask West Bank settlers where they live, I'm sure they'll say "in Israel".
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