Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?

Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.

Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?

Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone else is outraged by images on CNN of children stripped near naked and blindfolded by the IDF, know that this is standard Israeli practice, for years they have unlawfully detained and mistreated Palestinian children.

These articles are from this year and pre October 7th.
Save The Children
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

"Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-hebron-raid-female-israeli-soldiers-forced-palestinian-women-to-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000

well those of you outraged can have a nice conversation among (or between) yourselves! Have a let's be mad party!

Well, that's pretty callous! I guess this person really doesn't care about Palestinian children.

The let's be mad party is also the gathering of people who love to engage in pointless, non effective, name calling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone else is outraged by images on CNN of children stripped near naked and blindfolded by the IDF, know that this is standard Israeli practice, for years they have unlawfully detained and mistreated Palestinian children.

These articles are from this year and pre October 7th.
Save The Children
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

"Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-hebron-raid-female-israeli-soldiers-forced-palestinian-women-to-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000

well those of you outraged can have a nice conversation among (or between) yourselves! Have a let's be mad party!

Well, that's pretty callous! I guess this person really doesn't care about Palestinian children.

You can have a contest who cares more about Palestinian children at you let’s be mad party.

This is repugnantly racist and ought to be removed! How would you feel if someone made the same comment about Israeli children?

Everyone involved is White.
The issue is that your goal is to characterize Israel as inherently evil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?

Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.

Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?

Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.

But what is Israel to us Americans? It’s a very small country in the desert, we don’t need to fund it forever, they can and should support themselves. Status quote should definitely change, billions of dollars worth weapons were sent to Israel by Blinken within 2 days of 10/7, no discussion took place, its almost like a middle of the night robbery. Politicians are falling over themselves to voice support for Israel because of political donations. What is an average American citizen gaining out of all this?? Nothing is being gained and we should stop any and all political contributions from AIPAC, if not then we should rename ourselves to United States of Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone else is outraged by images on CNN of children stripped near naked and blindfolded by the IDF, know that this is standard Israeli practice, for years they have unlawfully detained and mistreated Palestinian children.

These articles are from this year and pre October 7th.
Save The Children
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

"Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-hebron-raid-female-israeli-soldiers-forced-palestinian-women-to-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000

well those of you outraged can have a nice conversation among (or between) yourselves! Have a let's be mad party!

Well, that's pretty callous! I guess this person really doesn't care about Palestinian children.

You can have a contest who cares more about Palestinian children at you let’s be mad party.

This is repugnantly racist and ought to be removed! How would you feel if someone made the same comment about Israeli children?

Everyone involved is White.
The issue is that your goal is to characterize Israel as inherently evil.

No, I'm actually characterizing you as evil.

Being anti-Palestinian is generally considered racist. The term "racism" generally encompasses ethnic prejudice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

I did ask for a better brand of troll in another thread and here's the one floating the balloon that "both sides" "need swift and unrelenting justice."

What could go wrong?

These arguments aren't grounded in the real world. They're grounded in slogans and fantasies and that's really quite dangerous.

Is it only one side that has parties requiring swift and unrelenting justice?

I think you just like saying that phrase. I bet you say it when you're playing Elden Ring all the time.

I think you are a low energy, racist waste of protoplasm, a troll unworthy of being taken seriously by even those unfortunate to have landed in your diseased family tree.

"This isn't fun anymore. I am sad."
That's what Google translate gave me from the Arabic? Or Russian? You know those different alphabets... We dumb Americans struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

I did ask for a better brand of troll in another thread and here's the one floating the balloon that "both sides" "need swift and unrelenting justice."

What could go wrong?

These arguments aren't grounded in the real world. They're grounded in slogans and fantasies and that's really quite dangerous.

Is it only one side that has parties requiring swift and unrelenting justice?

I think you just like saying that phrase. I bet you say it when you're playing Elden Ring all the time.

I think you are a low energy, racist waste of protoplasm, a troll unworthy of being taken seriously by even those unfortunate to have landed in your diseased family tree.

"This isn't fun anymore. I am sad."
That's what Google translate gave me from the Arabic? Or Russian? You know those different alphabets... We dumb Americans struggle.

Are you going to Krav Maga some Palestinian babies today or what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If anyone else is outraged by images on CNN of children stripped near naked and blindfolded by the IDF, know that this is standard Israeli practice, for years they have unlawfully detained and mistreated Palestinian children.

These articles are from this year and pre October 7th.
Save The Children
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

"Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-hebron-raid-female-israeli-soldiers-forced-palestinian-women-to-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000

well those of you outraged can have a nice conversation among (or between) yourselves! Have a let's be mad party!

Well, that's pretty callous! I guess this person really doesn't care about Palestinian children.

You can have a contest who cares more about Palestinian children at you let’s be mad party.

This is repugnantly racist and ought to be removed! How would you feel if someone made the same comment about Israeli children?

Everyone involved is White.
The issue is that your goal is to characterize Israel as inherently evil.

No, I'm actually characterizing you as evil.

Being anti-Palestinian is generally considered racist. The term "racism" generally encompasses ethnic prejudice.

Yes, this foolishness is what naive segments of America are falling for, let's give all the POC (but not including black people, that is another story) everything they ask for to assuage our guilt.
Oh and the term racism does not generally encompass ethnic prejudice, but yes, foreigners with dark hair (I guess that is all it takes to be a POC?) will use the word to deceptively ride the coat tails of the American civil rights movement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If anyone else is outraged by images on CNN of children stripped near naked and blindfolded by the IDF, know that this is standard Israeli practice, for years they have unlawfully detained and mistreated Palestinian children.

These articles are from this year and pre October 7th.
Save The Children
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian

"Ramallah, 10 July – Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. "

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-09-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/in-hebron-raid-female-israeli-soldiers-forced-palestinian-women-to-undress/0000018a-6187-d895-ab8b-6fe7b7860000

well those of you outraged can have a nice conversation among (or between) yourselves! Have a let's be mad party!

Well, that's pretty callous! I guess this person really doesn't care about Palestinian children.

You can have a contest who cares more about Palestinian children at you let’s be mad party.

This is repugnantly racist and ought to be removed! How would you feel if someone made the same comment about Israeli children?

Everyone involved is White.
The issue is that your goal is to characterize Israel as inherently evil.

No, I'm actually characterizing you as evil.

Being anti-Palestinian is generally considered racist. The term "racism" generally encompasses ethnic prejudice.

If you characterize anything anti Palestinian as evil, then everything Palestinian is holy and infalliable, everything they want is good and right. I see that sentiment on this message board actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

If you want every wrong thing in the world addressed, what about goings on in Saudi Arabia? Syria? Belarus? South Africa? Indonesia? Why are you soooo focused on Israel?

Because the only 75+ year refugee group involved in any of those countries is in Israel. Because the U.S. provides more financial aid and U.N. interference for Israel than any of those countries. And because there is no end in sight to this conflict.

Why are you soooo focused on ensuring the status quo on Israel?

Palestinians shouldn't be considered refugees.
There isn't wrong with the U.S. providing aid to Israel. Palestinian's not liking it is not a problem. Palestinians are not our gods, we don't have to check every decision with them.
Status quo doesn't have to be changed.
You make things imperatives that actually are not.

But what is Israel to us Americans? It’s a very small country in the desert, we don’t need to fund it forever, they can and should support themselves. Status quote should definitely change, billions of dollars worth weapons were sent to Israel by Blinken within 2 days of 10/7, no discussion took place, its almost like a middle of the night robbery. Politicians are falling over themselves to voice support for Israel because of political donations. What is an average American citizen gaining out of all this?? Nothing is being gained and we should stop any and all political contributions from AIPAC, if not then we should rename ourselves to United States of Israel.

The U.S. is a rational actor, it has reasons for the foreign aid it provides. What are those reasons, and why are you against them? If you don't know the reasons, then you can't argue against them, unless Israel as a concept is anathema to you.

[Anonymous]

The Pro Palestine Cult: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17gwgp7/pro_palestinians_and_cult_mentality/

We see it live here on DCUM

Pro Palestinians' and Cult Mentality
I will readily admit that I did not understand much about the Israeli Palestinian conflict prior to three weeks ago. Like many people, I sort of stayed out if it and believed a lot is the buzz terms that were thrown around over the years.

However one thing I would say I'm well read on is cults and cult mentality. Here are a few observations I've made based on arguments and reading comments.

A quick note here, this is not to say everyone who supports Palestinians and their cause is in a cult. I personally support Palestinian rights tremendously. I am referring to the 'pro Palestinians' who share certain common traits.

Cult members and leaders will not concede even small or seemingly irrelevant points.

For example, David Koresh (Waco) admitted lied that he ever played in a band when he was younger and recorded albums. Jim Jones would not accept that he had a drug dependency problem even though he required and took drugs every day. They won't concede or accept any truth on any issues if they believe it sheds bad light on them.

Sound familiar? Many 'pro Palestinians' will not accept that there is antisemitism in the world or that it is a wider problem in Palestine. They won't accept that Hamas lied about the hospital - even though it doesn't really affect the pro Palestinian cause.

2. Invalidate all contrary facts as a conspiracy and hype 'fringe' sources.

Cult members from Scientology to Heavens Gate have done this for years.

Anytime someone brings in scientific or historic evidence from mainstream sources, the default tactic is to attack the sources. Scientologists, when presented with lab tested evidence to show their ometers were bogus, immediately went on the attack to discredit the scientific community. There was a conspiracy to destroy them, and that the mainstream was oppressing the real voice. Again - this is typically of many pro Palestinians. When faced with real evidence from multiple sources that have no motive to lie, they immediately attack the source and assume their is a Jewish lobbying conspiracy. At the same time, they will cute sources with dubious and unverifiable 'facts' such as witness accounts not backed by evidence.

3. Disengagement.

This one is the most tragic. When faced with such extreme cognitive dissonance (two contrasting facts don't line up) cult members will disengage from further discussion, and flock to the people who validate their arguments. NXIVM members moved away from family, cut off communications, and saw themselves as living a separate enlightened life outside the 'norm'. Anytime facts or reason became too real, they would simply cut themselves off. They then brigade and are then accepted into the safe community that believes and validates them.

4. Failure to accept responsibility.

This one is the most terrifying since it's the reason cults do horrific things. When people in jonestown started poisoning children and their loved ones it was all because of the government conspiracy to oppress them. When the Proudboys instigate and then use violence, it's not the individual's responsibility. They are acting as part of a justifyable 'resistance movement'.

How many lawyers, doctors, or politicians who've never even been to Palestine have said the most hateful, antisemetic rhetoric over the past two weeks? When asked about their own personal responsibility for those statements it's the same excuse. I was justifiedband not responsible because I'm part of something bigger.

5. Recoding language.

All cults have their own created internal lingo. These redefined terms to deprogram to suit the needs of the ideology. Heavens gate members weren't taking poison to kill themselves, they were 'transporting'. Children of God sexually abused children as part of 'freeing' them.

So you can see in the pro palestinian movement certain words have been twisted from their common meaning. 'genocide' is not like Bosnia, or the holocaust, it is about oppression and land disputes. 'War crimes' are not about the written laws in the Geneva convention, but about bombing military targets, killing any civilian. Apartheid is not about south Africa, it's about a border checkpoint.

6. Complete faith in their leaders and vilifying of 'enemies'.

Cult members cannot accept their leaders are fallable. They are often seen as inhuman, and impervious to human vices. There's no greed, ignorance, vanity, or deceit. Contrarily, their 'enemies' have no bounds to the evil schemes. Every one of their actions is motivated by the evil.

This is why pro Palestinians have such a hard time accepting or critiquing things like rocket attacks on innocent civilians over the years were a stupid idea that made things worse. Or that Hamas leaders are filthy rich from stolen money. Or that UNRWA taught children antisemitic rhetoric in Gaza for a decade. It's also why pro Palestinians see Israel as pure evil motivated by racism, globalism, and pure hatred.

As a final note - anyone is susceptible to cult followings. There are Jewish people in pro Palestinian, intelligent well educated people, and people who have never even stepped foot outside a western country.

It's also not trying to undermine the many hard working groups that do support Palestinians and their liberties. There are many groups that are furious with Palestinian leaders, see Israel as an ally in their cause, and desparetly want to open up relationships to create lasting peace and liberties for palestinians. They have no problem debating, accepting past errors, compromising, and showing empathy while still advocating for their rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Pro Palestine Cult: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17gwgp7/pro_palestinians_and_cult_mentality/

We see it live here on DCUM

Pro Palestinians' and Cult Mentality
I will readily admit that I did not understand much about the Israeli Palestinian conflict prior to three weeks ago. Like many people, I sort of stayed out if it and believed a lot is the buzz terms that were thrown around over the years.

However one thing I would say I'm well read on is cults and cult mentality. Here are a few observations I've made based on arguments and reading comments.

A quick note here, this is not to say everyone who supports Palestinians and their cause is in a cult. I personally support Palestinian rights tremendously. I am referring to the 'pro Palestinians' who share certain common traits.

Cult members and leaders will not concede even small or seemingly irrelevant points.

For example, David Koresh (Waco) admitted lied that he ever played in a band when he was younger and recorded albums. Jim Jones would not accept that he had a drug dependency problem even though he required and took drugs every day. They won't concede or accept any truth on any issues if they believe it sheds bad light on them.

Sound familiar? Many 'pro Palestinians' will not accept that there is antisemitism in the world or that it is a wider problem in Palestine. They won't accept that Hamas lied about the hospital - even though it doesn't really affect the pro Palestinian cause.

2. Invalidate all contrary facts as a conspiracy and hype 'fringe' sources.

Cult members from Scientology to Heavens Gate have done this for years.

Anytime someone brings in scientific or historic evidence from mainstream sources, the default tactic is to attack the sources. Scientologists, when presented with lab tested evidence to show their ometers were bogus, immediately went on the attack to discredit the scientific community. There was a conspiracy to destroy them, and that the mainstream was oppressing the real voice. Again - this is typically of many pro Palestinians. When faced with real evidence from multiple sources that have no motive to lie, they immediately attack the source and assume their is a Jewish lobbying conspiracy. At the same time, they will cute sources with dubious and unverifiable 'facts' such as witness accounts not backed by evidence.

3. Disengagement.

This one is the most tragic. When faced with such extreme cognitive dissonance (two contrasting facts don't line up) cult members will disengage from further discussion, and flock to the people who validate their arguments. NXIVM members moved away from family, cut off communications, and saw themselves as living a separate enlightened life outside the 'norm'. Anytime facts or reason became too real, they would simply cut themselves off. They then brigade and are then accepted into the safe community that believes and validates them.

4. Failure to accept responsibility.

This one is the most terrifying since it's the reason cults do horrific things. When people in jonestown started poisoning children and their loved ones it was all because of the government conspiracy to oppress them. When the Proudboys instigate and then use violence, it's not the individual's responsibility. They are acting as part of a justifyable 'resistance movement'.

How many lawyers, doctors, or politicians who've never even been to Palestine have said the most hateful, antisemetic rhetoric over the past two weeks? When asked about their own personal responsibility for those statements it's the same excuse. I was justifiedband not responsible because I'm part of something bigger.

5. Recoding language.

All cults have their own created internal lingo. These redefined terms to deprogram to suit the needs of the ideology. Heavens gate members weren't taking poison to kill themselves, they were 'transporting'. Children of God sexually abused children as part of 'freeing' them.

So you can see in the pro palestinian movement certain words have been twisted from their common meaning. 'genocide' is not like Bosnia, or the holocaust, it is about oppression and land disputes. 'War crimes' are not about the written laws in the Geneva convention, but about bombing military targets, killing any civilian. Apartheid is not about south Africa, it's about a border checkpoint.

6. Complete faith in their leaders and vilifying of 'enemies'.

Cult members cannot accept their leaders are fallable. They are often seen as inhuman, and impervious to human vices. There's no greed, ignorance, vanity, or deceit. Contrarily, their 'enemies' have no bounds to the evil schemes. Every one of their actions is motivated by the evil.

This is why pro Palestinians have such a hard time accepting or critiquing things like rocket attacks on innocent civilians over the years were a stupid idea that made things worse. Or that Hamas leaders are filthy rich from stolen money. Or that UNRWA taught children antisemitic rhetoric in Gaza for a decade. It's also why pro Palestinians see Israel as pure evil motivated by racism, globalism, and pure hatred.

As a final note - anyone is susceptible to cult followings. There are Jewish people in pro Palestinian, intelligent well educated people, and people who have never even stepped foot outside a western country.

It's also not trying to undermine the many hard working groups that do support Palestinians and their liberties. There are many groups that are furious with Palestinian leaders, see Israel as an ally in their cause, and desparetly want to open up relationships to create lasting peace and liberties for palestinians. They have no problem debating, accepting past errors, compromising, and showing empathy while still advocating for their rights.

Cool, now do the Zionism cult.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

You just did call everyone involved a liar.

I look forward to watching you say the same thing about the NYT’s meticulous reporting about the child deaths in Gaza and how those babies were killed and what their parents said they saw when their kids died in front of them. Are those parents, with their horrific details of watching their children bleed out and die in front them, also lying? Please do go on and tell me how the Palestinian parents who watched their children die in front of them are also lying.

DP. There is a mix of lies and truths. Yes, some Palestinian children have died, but there are also lies about how many died (such as the grossly exaggerated death count from Baptist Hospital). There are also lies about whose hands they died at. Yes, IDF killed some, but Hamas is also killing Palestinians, like when Hamas was trying to steal humanitarian aid for themselves rather than distribute it and they shot and killed hungry Palestinians who complained about it. Or when Hamas was trying to stop people from trying to evacuate. Or when civilians died because they were placed in harm's way by Hamas as human shields, or were killed because their home or shelter collapsed into Hamas tunnels when Hamas complexes were bombed.

Sure, but that’s not the point. The PP who is saying that the detailed eyewitness accounts of sexual torture must be lies because the shock and trauma should have prevented the creation of vivid and detailed memories of that torture needs to also then come out and say that the Palestinian parents who described watching their child bleed out in front of them in vivid detail are also lying because that level of shock and trauma should have prevented those parents from forming those memories. If she’s taking the position that the stories of sexual torture can’t be true because of “shock and trauma” then she needs to be consistent in how that theory is applied. Unless, of course, she’s taking the position that only Jewish women have this peculiar inability to remember unspeakable horrors, which is what I suspect she’s really getting at.

In any case, I look forward to reading her statements that the Palestinian parents who described the horrific and slow deaths of their dying children in front of their own eyes are also lying when they describe those deaths in excruciating and awful detail.

Exactly how mental are you???

The person used these exact words “I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense.“ and “ I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.”

And from those two statements you walked away with an argument that the accounts “must be lies”? Must be lies? Are you literally deranged?

Right on. Carefully qualified statements from one poster. Complete misrepresentation of her position from the other.

Repeated misrepresentation. Brazenly going so far as to quote the actual words multiple times and, what, I guess hope that their shitty Jedi mind trick would prevent people from actually reading the goddamned words? The words couldn’t be more clear in establishing that the poster was NOT stating that the reporting MUST be based on lies, but I’m sure we’ll now hear from the “word salad” specialist and the “I’ll tell you what you REALLY mean!” thought crime experts to straighten all of this out. The “what do you want to do about your feelings?” poster from Ukraine or Poland or wherever is already on duty.

This is insane. The pro-Zionism part of this equation is absolutely, clinically deranged. And it should be lost on no one that this is an outcome that is perfectly acceptable to them. Show your deranged true colors, get people to throw their hands up and give up, and get the desired result of stopping the exchange of ideas that threatens to topple the status quo.

Absolutely disgusting human beings. And yes, I mean every last person who lies like these lunatics in furtherance of their desperate defense of Zionism. Still love anyone else Jewish or otherwise who recognizes the toxic insanity of Zionism.

you can present your ideas over and over, but people can still say "well, no thanks" over and over. Some might be ok with status quo. You are frustrating yourself by making changing the status quo a good or evil thing.

Feeling person, we get it.

I want a cessation of violence on both sides, consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence, and a good faith plan to establish a two-state plan that guarantees the rights of Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, which will require compromise from both sides. And I want any further aid to the region conditioned upon the successful achievement of these goals. As far as I’m concerned, if Israel and the Palestinians can get across the finish lines, I’m supportive of INCREASING aid to both groups for a certain timeframe to position both states for long term success. I’d love to see them both flourish without the constant conflict, which both sides have earnestly contributed to.

That’s what I want. Is that clear enough for you?

Do you want Hamas gone? Because you didn’t mention that.

Yeah, of course Hamas being dismantled and being brought to justice is a necessity.

That’s why “consequences for parties that have previously engaged in violence” was the second aim. Hamas is one such party, but there are also others. Other militant groups on the Palestinian side, the militant settlers and certain Likud officials on the Israeli side, and any IDF personnel who have engaged in conduct that violates the law of armed conflict.

All of the above should be brought to swift and unrelenting justice as part of that second aim.

I did ask for a better brand of troll in another thread and here's the one floating the balloon that "both sides" "need swift and unrelenting justice."

What could go wrong?

These arguments aren't grounded in the real world. They're grounded in slogans and fantasies and that's really quite dangerous.

Is it only one side that has parties requiring swift and unrelenting justice?

I think you just like saying that phrase. I bet you say it when you're playing Elden Ring all the time.

I think you are a low energy, racist waste of protoplasm, a troll unworthy of being taken seriously by even those unfortunate to have landed in your diseased family tree.

"This isn't fun anymore. I am sad."
That's what Google translate gave me from the Arabic? Or Russian? You know those different alphabets... We dumb Americans struggle.

Are you going to Krav Maga some Palestinian babies today or what?

I would but I shipped most of them to Dublin because I hear the Irish are really good at making steak and baby pie.

(You won't get the reference. It's Swift. And yeah. It's not that funny.)

You are obsessed with telling me what I am and who I am, and what I believe... yet strangely reluctant to give yourself any definitive identity.

I can understand and respect if that's because of trauma. I can even understand and respect why you hate Israelis. Assuming you do. Assuming you actually have any real connection to Palestine or its people.

I was the poster pointing out what a horrific tragedy this is for everyone for quite some time--an obvious point--but bombs and beheadings aren't subtle.

That's who I am. Who are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Pro Palestine Cult: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17gwgp7/pro_palestinians_and_cult_mentality/

We see it live here on DCUM

Pro Palestinians' and Cult Mentality
I will readily admit that I did not understand much about the Israeli Palestinian conflict prior to three weeks ago. Like many people, I sort of stayed out if it and believed a lot is the buzz terms that were thrown around over the years.

However one thing I would say I'm well read on is cults and cult mentality. Here are a few observations I've made based on arguments and reading comments.

A quick note here, this is not to say everyone who supports Palestinians and their cause is in a cult. I personally support Palestinian rights tremendously. I am referring to the 'pro Palestinians' who share certain common traits.

Cult members and leaders will not concede even small or seemingly irrelevant points.

For example, David Koresh (Waco) admitted lied that he ever played in a band when he was younger and recorded albums. Jim Jones would not accept that he had a drug dependency problem even though he required and took drugs every day. They won't concede or accept any truth on any issues if they believe it sheds bad light on them.

Sound familiar? Many 'pro Palestinians' will not accept that there is antisemitism in the world or that it is a wider problem in Palestine. They won't accept that Hamas lied about the hospital - even though it doesn't really affect the pro Palestinian cause.

2. Invalidate all contrary facts as a conspiracy and hype 'fringe' sources.

Cult members from Scientology to Heavens Gate have done this for years.

Anytime someone brings in scientific or historic evidence from mainstream sources, the default tactic is to attack the sources. Scientologists, when presented with lab tested evidence to show their ometers were bogus, immediately went on the attack to discredit the scientific community. There was a conspiracy to destroy them, and that the mainstream was oppressing the real voice. Again - this is typically of many pro Palestinians. When faced with real evidence from multiple sources that have no motive to lie, they immediately attack the source and assume their is a Jewish lobbying conspiracy. At the same time, they will cute sources with dubious and unverifiable 'facts' such as witness accounts not backed by evidence.

3. Disengagement.

This one is the most tragic. When faced with such extreme cognitive dissonance (two contrasting facts don't line up) cult members will disengage from further discussion, and flock to the people who validate their arguments. NXIVM members moved away from family, cut off communications, and saw themselves as living a separate enlightened life outside the 'norm'. Anytime facts or reason became too real, they would simply cut themselves off. They then brigade and are then accepted into the safe community that believes and validates them.

4. Failure to accept responsibility.

This one is the most terrifying since it's the reason cults do horrific things. When people in jonestown started poisoning children and their loved ones it was all because of the government conspiracy to oppress them. When the Proudboys instigate and then use violence, it's not the individual's responsibility. They are acting as part of a justifyable 'resistance movement'.

How many lawyers, doctors, or politicians who've never even been to Palestine have said the most hateful, antisemetic rhetoric over the past two weeks? When asked about their own personal responsibility for those statements it's the same excuse. I was justifiedband not responsible because I'm part of something bigger.

5. Recoding language.

All cults have their own created internal lingo. These redefined terms to deprogram to suit the needs of the ideology. Heavens gate members weren't taking poison to kill themselves, they were 'transporting'. Children of God sexually abused children as part of 'freeing' them.

So you can see in the pro palestinian movement certain words have been twisted from their common meaning. 'genocide' is not like Bosnia, or the holocaust, it is about oppression and land disputes. 'War crimes' are not about the written laws in the Geneva convention, but about bombing military targets, killing any civilian. Apartheid is not about south Africa, it's about a border checkpoint.

6. Complete faith in their leaders and vilifying of 'enemies'.

Cult members cannot accept their leaders are fallable. They are often seen as inhuman, and impervious to human vices. There's no greed, ignorance, vanity, or deceit. Contrarily, their 'enemies' have no bounds to the evil schemes. Every one of their actions is motivated by the evil.

This is why pro Palestinians have such a hard time accepting or critiquing things like rocket attacks on innocent civilians over the years were a stupid idea that made things worse. Or that Hamas leaders are filthy rich from stolen money. Or that UNRWA taught children antisemitic rhetoric in Gaza for a decade. It's also why pro Palestinians see Israel as pure evil motivated by racism, globalism, and pure hatred.

As a final note - anyone is susceptible to cult followings. There are Jewish people in pro Palestinian, intelligent well educated people, and people who have never even stepped foot outside a western country.

It's also not trying to undermine the many hard working groups that do support Palestinians and their liberties. There are many groups that are furious with Palestinian leaders, see Israel as an ally in their cause, and desparetly want to open up relationships to create lasting peace and liberties for palestinians. They have no problem debating, accepting past errors, compromising, and showing empathy while still advocating for their rights.

Cool, now do the Zionism cult.

You prove the point of the Reddit poster with your response 100%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Pro Palestine Cult: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17gwgp7/pro_palestinians_and_cult_mentality/

We see it live here on DCUM

Pro Palestinians' and Cult Mentality
I will readily admit that I did not understand much about the Israeli Palestinian conflict prior to three weeks ago. Like many people, I sort of stayed out if it and believed a lot is the buzz terms that were thrown around over the years.

However one thing I would say I'm well read on is cults and cult mentality. Here are a few observations I've made based on arguments and reading comments.

A quick note here, this is not to say everyone who supports Palestinians and their cause is in a cult. I personally support Palestinian rights tremendously. I am referring to the 'pro Palestinians' who share certain common traits.

Cult members and leaders will not concede even small or seemingly irrelevant points.

For example, David Koresh (Waco) admitted lied that he ever played in a band when he was younger and recorded albums. Jim Jones would not accept that he had a drug dependency problem even though he required and took drugs every day. They won't concede or accept any truth on any issues if they believe it sheds bad light on them.

Sound familiar? Many 'pro Palestinians' will not accept that there is antisemitism in the world or that it is a wider problem in Palestine. They won't accept that Hamas lied about the hospital - even though it doesn't really affect the pro Palestinian cause.

2. Invalidate all contrary facts as a conspiracy and hype 'fringe' sources.

Cult members from Scientology to Heavens Gate have done this for years.

Anytime someone brings in scientific or historic evidence from mainstream sources, the default tactic is to attack the sources. Scientologists, when presented with lab tested evidence to show their ometers were bogus, immediately went on the attack to discredit the scientific community. There was a conspiracy to destroy them, and that the mainstream was oppressing the real voice. Again - this is typically of many pro Palestinians. When faced with real evidence from multiple sources that have no motive to lie, they immediately attack the source and assume their is a Jewish lobbying conspiracy. At the same time, they will cute sources with dubious and unverifiable 'facts' such as witness accounts not backed by evidence.

3. Disengagement.

This one is the most tragic. When faced with such extreme cognitive dissonance (two contrasting facts don't line up) cult members will disengage from further discussion, and flock to the people who validate their arguments. NXIVM members moved away from family, cut off communications, and saw themselves as living a separate enlightened life outside the 'norm'. Anytime facts or reason became too real, they would simply cut themselves off. They then brigade and are then accepted into the safe community that believes and validates them.

4. Failure to accept responsibility.

This one is the most terrifying since it's the reason cults do horrific things. When people in jonestown started poisoning children and their loved ones it was all because of the government conspiracy to oppress them. When the Proudboys instigate and then use violence, it's not the individual's responsibility. They are acting as part of a justifyable 'resistance movement'.

How many lawyers, doctors, or politicians who've never even been to Palestine have said the most hateful, antisemetic rhetoric over the past two weeks? When asked about their own personal responsibility for those statements it's the same excuse. I was justifiedband not responsible because I'm part of something bigger.

5. Recoding language.

All cults have their own created internal lingo. These redefined terms to deprogram to suit the needs of the ideology. Heavens gate members weren't taking poison to kill themselves, they were 'transporting'. Children of God sexually abused children as part of 'freeing' them.

So you can see in the pro palestinian movement certain words have been twisted from their common meaning. 'genocide' is not like Bosnia, or the holocaust, it is about oppression and land disputes. 'War crimes' are not about the written laws in the Geneva convention, but about bombing military targets, killing any civilian. Apartheid is not about south Africa, it's about a border checkpoint.

6. Complete faith in their leaders and vilifying of 'enemies'.

Cult members cannot accept their leaders are fallable. They are often seen as inhuman, and impervious to human vices. There's no greed, ignorance, vanity, or deceit. Contrarily, their 'enemies' have no bounds to the evil schemes. Every one of their actions is motivated by the evil.

This is why pro Palestinians have such a hard time accepting or critiquing things like rocket attacks on innocent civilians over the years were a stupid idea that made things worse. Or that Hamas leaders are filthy rich from stolen money. Or that UNRWA taught children antisemitic rhetoric in Gaza for a decade. It's also why pro Palestinians see Israel as pure evil motivated by racism, globalism, and pure hatred.

As a final note - anyone is susceptible to cult followings. There are Jewish people in pro Palestinian, intelligent well educated people, and people who have never even stepped foot outside a western country.

It's also not trying to undermine the many hard working groups that do support Palestinians and their liberties. There are many groups that are furious with Palestinian leaders, see Israel as an ally in their cause, and desparetly want to open up relationships to create lasting peace and liberties for palestinians. They have no problem debating, accepting past errors, compromising, and showing empathy while still advocating for their rights.

Cool, now do the Zionism cult.

She did. Did you finish the post?

It's a great post. I personally kind of feel like social media has indoctrinated all of us into our own cults a little. People are tribal. They want to be right, they want a cause. They want to be good. It's pretty easy, sadly, for that to go wrong.

I think the way out is sharing lives. I don't mean in a doxing way. I mean sharing personal reactions and experiences. Anecdotes your mother told you. Stuff you read about. Exchanging how and where and why you came to your opinions. That engagement is what puts us all on a level playing field and makes us all human.