Yu Ying - Do/Can Non-Native Kids Actually SPEAK Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:5:21's take makes sense. In the unlikely event that DC ed leaders pay attention to a discussion like this one, lessons could be learned about how to set up immersion programs. If the local native speaking community of a particular language is tiny, like with the Chinese in DC, as a school system, you're better off running an immersion school as a traditional public schools than charters, as long as the programs are of good quality. That way, schools could offer lotteries to attract native speakers from a tiny pond.

Arguably, you can only build a serious program for teaching speaking in a language if you're in a position to attract both bilingual students and many non native parents willing to put out to ensure that kids can really speak. With these inputs, eventually you can also build a high performing International Bacc. Dip program. Even the Oyster situation isn't all that great for immersion students, feeding into Wilson where IBDip isn't offered (AP languages don't challenge the strongest immersion students).

+1000 x 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As others have said, many on this thread are not actually YY families. I am a PP with a kid studying another language at another immersion school with a sizable proportion of native speakers; I've chimed in a few times, as I've been following this thread. My only connection to YY is that a few of my neighbors' kids attend.

I still think some of the YY detractors have been mean-spirited in their mocking of current families, saying the kids "speak like toddlers," etc. That is in large part what is creating the backlash--the downright pettiness from several (or one?) of the detractors. Also, some suggestions/opinions re: YY kids' language acquisition skills may indeed be reasonable, but they aren't being taken well because of some PPs' sneering, mocking delivery of this information.

Also, if some of you have indeed moved on after leaving YY many, many years ago, and your kids' current schools are working out well, why are you so invested in criticizing YY, to the point of posting at all hours during the workday, etc.? Seems a lot of valuable time spent on a school that should be in your rearview.

THIS x 1000. This is the odd thing about this thread and others like it. Whether or not the kids are speaking great Mandarin, WHY DO YOU CARE? Clearly you're here to trash a school for no reason, since your kids don't go there. W.T.F.

Because it's a public school subsidized by their tax dollars. I also care about Ballou and Dunbar, even though my children don't attend them.

LOL. You lie like a rug. Have yet to see a DCUM thread on Ballou, or even Eastern. Chinese parents don't seem bent about the Mandarin classes at CMI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As others have said, many on this thread are not actually YY families. I am a PP with a kid studying another language at another immersion school with a sizable proportion of native speakers; I've chimed in a few times, as I've been following this thread. My only connection to YY is that a few of my neighbors' kids attend.

I still think some of the YY detractors have been mean-spirited in their mocking of current families, saying the kids "speak like toddlers," etc. That is in large part what is creating the backlash--the downright pettiness from several (or one?) of the detractors. Also, some suggestions/opinions re: YY kids' language acquisition skills may indeed be reasonable, but they aren't being taken well because of some PPs' sneering, mocking delivery of this information.

Also, if some of you have indeed moved on after leaving YY many, many years ago, and your kids' current schools are working out well, why are you so invested in criticizing YY, to the point of posting at all hours during the workday, etc.? Seems a lot of valuable time spent on a school that should be in your rearview.

THIS x 1000. This is the odd thing about this thread and others like it. Whether or not the kids are speaking great Mandarin, WHY DO YOU CARE? Clearly you're here to trash a school for no reason, since your kids don't go there. W.T.F.

Because it's a public school subsidized by their tax dollars. I also care about Ballou and Dunbar, even though my children don't attend them.

LOL. You lie like a rug. Have yet to see a DCUM thread on Ballou, or even Eastern. Chinese parents don't seem bent about the Mandarin classes at CMI.

I'm not Chinese and neither are my children. You realize there are more than 2 people commenting here?

[Anonymous]

+1 I reported him to Jeff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:+1 I reported him to Jeff.

Who? And why?

[Anonymous]

12:19, he's a big bully

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree wholeheartedly. Not Chinese but I'm concerned about PC notions of love, harmony, equality etc. trumping actual learning a lot in public schools these days, at our economic peril. China's a rising superpower in large part because their national, provincial and city governments, while not democratically elected, are fundamentally practical.

Our city ed leaders can't handle making tough ed policy decisions. 2-way immersion works best but the city doesn't bother with it for any language but Spanish. The charter immersion programs could have been DCPS or charter-DCPS hybrids with dual lotteries, like Oyster, but DC public generally can't be bothered to do things right. Bilingual American Born Chinese are seen as a threat on these boards by the jealous, pure and simple.

I've seen this statement made before in other threads and I do not understand this. Who here expressed anything that could be construed as jealously of American Born Chinese? And how could they be considered a threat? This makes no sense especially in the context of this thread.

It's not jealousy. It's resentment that the Chinese-heritage people have the temerity to judge YY and find it lacking. All the responses by YY parents or supporters I read are about "how dare you say my DS/DD speaks worse Chinese than she/he should have by now." It's like they are afraid to ask for higher standards.

Agree. This thread has been loaded with resentment that ethnic Chinese speakers dare report that they aren't impressed with YY's Mandarin instruction. Interestingly, the complaints on the Spanish immersion threads are usually about English instruction, not Spanish. The YY parents and supporters do sound afraid to ask for better instruction. They sound like they know standards are lacking and want higher standards, but make claims to the contrary in their resentment. I'm having trouble imagining them being worse off if they took the criticism with a grain of salt, learned from it, and responded by pushing for higher standards.

NP. I disagree and I don't think you're accurately characterizing what's been said in this thread. It's perfectly fine to voice legitimate criticisms about YY and the language skills of the students. There are numerous posts discussing what steps the school and families can take and several in which posters agreed that there's room for improvement. It's quite a different thing to ridicule and be derogatory toward the students and the families, which is what a significant number of the posts in this thread are doing. THOSE are the posts eliciting responses of "how dare you." But some on this thread seem hellbent on insisting that YY families are jealous of or resent Chinese heritage people for speaking out about deficiencies, even when there is nothing to support that sentiment.

Nothing to support that sentiment? Give me a break. I'm not Chinese but when your DS/DD is struggling to learn a really difficult Asian language you can't understand, a language that seriously upwardly mobile Chinese immigrants (who steer clear of the school) speak beautifully, jealously AND resentment are naturally going to rear their ugly heads. Almost all the posts pointing out that the kids Mandarin isn't so hot after years and years of immersion study have elicited defensive responses. THOSE are the posts showing the posters' true colors.

But you're assuming the reason posters are getting defensive is because of jealousy and resentment, when in reality, those PPs are most likely just feeling attacked or criticized themselves. And it isn't difficult to understand why they might be feeling attacked, because as several PPs have pointed out, the tone and nature of what's being said about people who send their kids to YY is unpleasant. It's really bizarre to keep insisting that people are jealous of Chinese people because of their ability to speak their own language. Why on earth would anyone resent someone for something like that?? People are resentful and jealous because of things like money, power, beauty, prestige and status - NOT one's ability to be fluent in their native language. Even if I hope that my child will one day become fluent in that language, it'll never be the same and to me, it makes no sense to be jealous or resentful of something like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This conversation is already 21 pages long so I haven't read (and probably won't read) all that came before, just gonna give my experience.

My child is a 3rd grader now, so been at YY for 4 full years (PreK4 through 2nd), and now early in his 3rd grade year. None of us are of Chinese origin, and none of us spoke Chinese before he started at YY. He also gets no supplementary Chinese instruction or tutoring, we don't go to any weekend classes or other classes outside of his regular work at YY, and we don't have any nanny or au pair.

My experience with his Mandarin language skills is very positive. Because this is DC, we have sought out and found several ways to throw him into situations where he's speaking Mandarin with natives, to see how it goes and what they have to say about his skills. First of all, as early as the end of 1st grade there were very few things that anyone would say to him in Chinese that he didn't understand. He wasn't always able to find the best words to answer, but even that early there was abundant back and forth and the people he was speaking to ALWAYS commented on how good his comprehension was, how great his tones are, and they can't believe he can converse like that. And it's just gotten better since 1st grade.

Also, on playdates with other YY kids they will often on their own start speaking Chinese, although more often it's by a parent suggesting it. But they really do do it on their own as well.

While I understand (according to many native speakers) that Chinese people are gracious and unlikely to say anything super-negative about a child's language skills in these kinds of contexts, it always annoys me when people dismiss the positive feedback some of us get as if NO ONE Chinese is capable of being sincere or clear about their impressions. There is almost always clear surprise and clear appreciation for his skills, most people are very specific about what impresses them.

And most importantly, to the original question, his conversations are real conversations. Not just broken "What you say when ordering at a restaurant". At this point I can't remember the last time somoene said something to him in Mandarin and he didn't understand and answer, on his own, with no prompting.

So I don't know what's in these pages, but our experience at YY is far from unusual- it's very common. I don't know any kids in his grade with poor or really incomplete Mandarin skills, although I obviously also don't know every single kid in his grade. But the ones we do know, and the ones we see out and about in contexts where there are adult native speakers, do very very well and are always highly praised and we get lots of great feedback. And it's not always the same - sometimes kids get different feedback on specific things, like tones. But overall it's far far more advanced than cute little phrases or canned exchanges.

We hope you're on the mark, but since you don't speak Chinese, who knows.

Not the previous poster, but I think the same thing about Spanish! I don't speak it, so I have no way of knowing how well or poorly my DD speaks.

That may be, but I find the idea that strangers on the internet think they know what a specific child's actual language skills are or are not better than the native speakers that the parents encounter in real life is absurd. You don't have to take parents' words for their experiences, but the parents know what atual real life humans who interact with their kids say. And those evaluation, as informal as they are (i.e. they don't come with standardized language test scores), those are still more legit and real to the parent who meets those native language speakers over the years than your judgements of kids you don't know on a message board.

YY parents, don't take all this personally. If your experience is very positive, or if you're even a native Mandarin speaker who knows what you see/hear at YY and you have an opinion, cool, whether it's good bad or indifferent. But this idea that a few bitter people who like to insult others actually are making valid points (when they clearly have an axe to grind) is such a waste of time. YY is far from perfect. But a whole bunch of kids seem to be learning very respectable Mandarin skills, and that is a very good thing, critics or no critics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As others have said, many on this thread are not actually YY families. I am a PP with a kid studying another language at another immersion school with a sizable proportion of native speakers; I've chimed in a few times, as I've been following this thread. My only connection to YY is that a few of my neighbors' kids attend.

I still think some of the YY detractors have been mean-spirited in their mocking of current families, saying the kids "speak like toddlers," etc. That is in large part what is creating the backlash--the downright pettiness from several (or one?) of the detractors. Also, some suggestions/opinions re: YY kids' language acquisition skills may indeed be reasonable, but they aren't being taken well because of some PPs' sneering, mocking delivery of this information.

Also, if some of you have indeed moved on after leaving YY many, many years ago, and your kids' current schools are working out well, why are you so invested in criticizing YY, to the point of posting at all hours during the workday, etc.? Seems a lot of valuable time spent on a school that should be in your rearview.

THIS x 1000. This is the odd thing about this thread and others like it. Whether or not the kids are speaking great Mandarin, WHY DO YOU CARE? Clearly you're here to trash a school for no reason, since your kids don't go there. W.T.F.

Because it's a public school subsidized by their tax dollars. I also care about Ballou and Dunbar, even though my children don't attend them.

Oh please. It's one thing - and totally understandable - to take a general view that you care about how your tax dollars are being used in public schools. It's a whole other to claim to have pulled your kids out of one of those schools and then spend years hanging out on an anonymous message board trashing the school and making fun of the families. I've been on DCUM on and off for 5 years, and have seen the same couple of people (and there are many tell-tale signs that you're talking to the same people over and over) spend COUNTLESS hours trashing the school. That is more than "I care abotu my tax dollars". That's "this school offended me or rejected me or did not listen to me, I'm bitter, and I so can't get over it, I look for opportunities to bait people into arguments about how much the school sucks.

If YY is worth that much of your time to make fun of it, it's obviously got something going on because as a PP here said, why else would you care this much to trash it?

[Anonymous]

You sound like the bitter one. Commentators have offered constructive criticism and thoughtful and reasonable comments on this thread. If you're that unhappy with certain posters, report them to Jeff or, better yet, stay off YY threads on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

This happens every time a YY thread comes up. Set your watch for it and I'll see everyone here again next Fall.

[Anonymous]

Maybe - we're hearing new voices on YY threads, including of the Spanish immersion parents. The school's instructional model is coming under new scrutiny, both internally and externally, now that grads have entered hs at DCI.

The old "the kids' languages skills are every bit as good as they could and should be under the circumstances, the real problem is that sour grapes ABCs can't resist taking pots shots at us" doesn't fly like it did 5 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe - we're hearing new voices on YY threads, including of the Spanish immersion parents. The school's instructional model is coming under new scrutiny, both internally and externally, now that grads have entered hs at DCI.

The old "the kids' languages skills are every bit as good as they could and should be under the circumstances, the real problem is that sour grapes ABCs can't resist taking pots shots at us" doesn't fly like it did 5 years ago.

Sure it does, because when you are talking about DCI, you're talking about kids who are several years out of YY. The first kids to have two years of immersion are only in first grade now, so we won't see how they fare in DCI for five more years. You act like you expect to see changes month to month.

[Anonymous]

You can't knock down YY's barriers to good Mandarin by adding a year of PreS3 immersion. Tiny tots pick up languages easily, and lose them almost as easily. As has been explained, few non native-speaking families are going to bother putting out to ensure that kids speak well without any real competition in the Chinese program, strong supports (after-care immersion, full immersion summer camps) and, most importantly, any standards for speaking. The addition of PreS3 immersion is bandaid treatment, a spoonful of Kool-Aid. Better than nothing, but not much.

[Anonymous]

You often hear about the "2 years of full immersion fix" from lower grades YY parents these days, because admins have been selling it for 4 or 5 years. The pitch mainly comes from a HOS who doesn't speak any language but English well.

People who were raised bilingual but no longer speak or understand one of the languages very well as adults know better. The reality is that a child needs serious and sustained immersion inputs until at least age 10 or 11 year round for an level of proficiency/fluency to take root and stick.