Please sign this petition to continue countywide magnets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have not read this whole thread but I have a child who would be a great fit for one of the middle school magnets but the commute would absolutely kill any downtime they might have. But our home school is not good and has no real accelerated classes aside from Math. The whole idea of these limited programs being available ONLY BY LOTTERY and only for kids who can manage the commute is insane. Every single school should have an actual advanced program and if we are going to do magnets there should be a magnet within a reasonable radius for every kid.

I guess the question is, are people saying they want an actual magnet program or do they want a good school?

I know it's not a popular opinion nowadays but schools was a major factor on where we decided to move to. If schools weren't a factor, we would've been open to a lot more areas.

Yes, the area we picked is more expensive and on the wealthier side.

So my point of view is that the magnet program is a really specialized program for the really elite few. You see the kind of things those students are showcasing at local events and it's really a different breed. We would've liked for our kids to go to those special programs. But prior to all the changes going on or proposed, we are fully okay with the local schools we're currently zoned for.

Are people asking for more access to the actual current magnet programs and what it offers. Or are people asking for better schools where their kids would have access to the more higher level and rigorous classes? ie in the groups we are in, not just in MCPS but in surrounding school systems, taking Calculus by 10th grade is very normal and there is the full expectation that the local high schools have what the students need/want for grades 11 and 12.

I'm not saying that there should be a high price of entry for "good" schools. But I'm questioning if people are really asking for magnet programs or if they're asking for better schools.

People are asking for both.

It’s a well known fact that some schools and cluster lack the more advance and specialized classes and programs. There is a sense of lower expectations because there are more EML students or less vocal parents. However evidence has shown that when provide the challenge students will rise to it. It’s also been proven in MCPS own data that the EML students are completely capable of performing at proficient or above levels once they exit the English learning program.

Taking Calculus by 10th grade is not that normal. It’s very accelerated and most college professors think it’s overkill and kids are not getting good foundations. Calculus by 12th is the goal (and technically that accelerated). Calculus by 11th is supposed to be the highly accelerated. Calculus by 10th, and now people are wondering why is everyone trying to accelerate further. What’s the goal? Yes, some kids are extremely math inclined and some very small number are beautiful mind like gifted. But not than many. What’s going on here mostly is parents racing and enriching like it’s a sport.

I'm still not a fan of dividing the region into six individual regions with a separate magnet program within each region and no overall magnet program for the county.

So in some regions, the school is basically just some sort of honors school. So students can take some more advanced courses that are offered at some other regular schools. But they need to pool enough students in a particular region to be able to offer the course.

Then some other regions might have a super magnet program. But students in other regions won't be able to access it due to being in another region.

Unless that's something they're purposely doing to try to keep the individual regions happy.

Having 6 creates more opportunities and puts more advanced classes at more schools. NOT everyone wants the magnet but kids want access to more advanced math and science. We have zero AP's in science and no math past BC. They are doing it so more kids have opportunities. Why is that a bad thing? You keep assuming we want that particular program and many don't. We just want the access to classes adn having a magnet at a school allows access to those classes more easily.

I guess I'm getting hung up on considering it a magnet.

But looking through the slides, I guess it's not called magnet and just Science, Math & Computer Science and Engineering

So I guess if they're actually coming out and saying yes, they are are eliminating the county wide magnet programs for these programs instead, then it'd be a little bit more easier for me to process. Not happy with it or anything but less argumentive.

The issue for me comes from people saying, no it will be the same program but just regionalized.

Over the years, I've seen students travel to other schools for classes not offered at their school. Including ROTC, language and math courses.

To my knowledge it wasn't anything special. In some cases they had a group of students shuttle together on their own with a teacher driving them. Other times students drove there on their own.

It seems like if this was to just give access to more classes they could do something like that, instead of coming up with a complicated plan. ie have two schools partner together and pool students interested in a class together.

But I guess maybe having established regions like this will have a more set transportation system allowing students to be able to travel to the schools more easily.

What do you mean, "calling it a magnet"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have not read this whole thread but I have a child who would be a great fit for one of the middle school magnets but the commute would absolutely kill any downtime they might have. But our home school is not good and has no real accelerated classes aside from Math. The whole idea of these limited programs being available ONLY BY LOTTERY and only for kids who can manage the commute is insane. Every single school should have an actual advanced program and if we are going to do magnets there should be a magnet within a reasonable radius for every kid.

I guess the question is, are people saying they want an actual magnet program or do they want a good school?

I know it's not a popular opinion nowadays but schools was a major factor on where we decided to move to. If schools weren't a factor, we would've been open to a lot more areas.

Yes, the area we picked is more expensive and on the wealthier side.

So my point of view is that the magnet program is a really specialized program for the really elite few. You see the kind of things those students are showcasing at local events and it's really a different breed. We would've liked for our kids to go to those special programs. But prior to all the changes going on or proposed, we are fully okay with the local schools we're currently zoned for.

Are people asking for more access to the actual current magnet programs and what it offers. Or are people asking for better schools where their kids would have access to the more higher level and rigorous classes? ie in the groups we are in, not just in MCPS but in surrounding school systems, taking Calculus by 10th grade is very normal and there is the full expectation that the local high schools have what the students need/want for grades 11 and 12.

I'm not saying that there should be a high price of entry for "good" schools. But I'm questioning if people are really asking for magnet programs or if they're asking for better schools.

People are asking for both.

It’s a well known fact that some schools and cluster lack the more advance and specialized classes and programs. There is a sense of lower expectations because there are more EML students or less vocal parents. However evidence has shown that when provide the challenge students will rise to it. It’s also been proven in MCPS own data that the EML students are completely capable of performing at proficient or above levels once they exit the English learning program.

Taking Calculus by 10th grade is not that normal. It’s very accelerated and most college professors think it’s overkill and kids are not getting good foundations. Calculus by 12th is the goal (and technically that accelerated). Calculus by 11th is supposed to be the highly accelerated. Calculus by 10th, and now people are wondering why is everyone trying to accelerate further. What’s the goal? Yes, some kids are extremely math inclined and some very small number are beautiful mind like gifted. But not than many. What’s going on here mostly is parents racing and enriching like it’s a sport.

I'm still not a fan of dividing the region into six individual regions with a separate magnet program within each region and no overall magnet program for the county.

So in some regions, the school is basically just some sort of honors school. So students can take some more advanced courses that are offered at some other regular schools. But they need to pool enough students in a particular region to be able to offer the course.

Then some other regions might have a super magnet program. But students in other regions won't be able to access it due to being in another region.

Unless that's something they're purposely doing to try to keep the individual regions happy.

Having 6 creates more opportunities and puts more advanced classes at more schools. NOT everyone wants the magnet but kids want access to more advanced math and science. We have zero AP's in science and no math past BC. They are doing it so more kids have opportunities. Why is that a bad thing? You keep assuming we want that particular program and many don't. We just want the access to classes adn having a magnet at a school allows access to those classes more easily.

I guess I'm getting hung up on considering it a magnet.

But looking through the slides, I guess it's not called magnet and just Science, Math & Computer Science and Engineering

So I guess if they're actually coming out and saying yes, they are are eliminating the county wide magnet programs for these programs instead, then it'd be a little bit more easier for me to process. Not happy with it or anything but less argumentive.

The issue for me comes from people saying, no it will be the same program but just regionalized.

Over the years, I've seen students travel to other schools for classes not offered at their school. Including ROTC, language and math courses.

To my knowledge it wasn't anything special. In some cases they had a group of students shuttle together on their own with a teacher driving them. Other times students drove there on their own.

It seems like if this was to just give access to more classes they could do something like that, instead of coming up with a complicated plan. ie have two schools partner together and pool students interested in a class together.

But I guess maybe having established regions like this will have a more set transportation system allowing students to be able to travel to the schools more easily.

Traveling means parents drive and they miss out oh two classes during that commute time. I’ve done it. MCPS refused transportation. It assumes you have a driving kid with a car, both schools can offer parking or a flexible parent for a mid day trip. It’s far from ideal. Each school has their own schedules and even lunches don’t align.

If you want support, you need to give support. We don’t need the same programs and different ones would be great. I don’t see what’s so great about it as it’s very restrictive.

You talk a good game but have no idea the real reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have not read this whole thread but I have a child who would be a great fit for one of the middle school magnets but the commute would absolutely kill any downtime they might have. But our home school is not good and has no real accelerated classes aside from Math. The whole idea of these limited programs being available ONLY BY LOTTERY and only for kids who can manage the commute is insane. Every single school should have an actual advanced program and if we are going to do magnets there should be a magnet within a reasonable radius for every kid.

I guess the question is, are people saying they want an actual magnet program or do they want a good school?

I know it's not a popular opinion nowadays but schools was a major factor on where we decided to move to. If schools weren't a factor, we would've been open to a lot more areas.

Yes, the area we picked is more expensive and on the wealthier side.

So my point of view is that the magnet program is a really specialized program for the really elite few. You see the kind of things those students are showcasing at local events and it's really a different breed. We would've liked for our kids to go to those special programs. But prior to all the changes going on or proposed, we are fully okay with the local schools we're currently zoned for.

Are people asking for more access to the actual current magnet programs and what it offers. Or are people asking for better schools where their kids would have access to the more higher level and rigorous classes? ie in the groups we are in, not just in MCPS but in surrounding school systems, taking Calculus by 10th grade is very normal and there is the full expectation that the local high schools have what the students need/want for grades 11 and 12.

I'm not saying that there should be a high price of entry for "good" schools. But I'm questioning if people are really asking for magnet programs or if they're asking for better schools.

People are asking for both.

It’s a well known fact that some schools and cluster lack the more advance and specialized classes and programs. There is a sense of lower expectations because there are more EML students or less vocal parents. However evidence has shown that when provide the challenge students will rise to it. It’s also been proven in MCPS own data that the EML students are completely capable of performing at proficient or above levels once they exit the English learning program.

Taking Calculus by 10th grade is not that normal. It’s very accelerated and most college professors think it’s overkill and kids are not getting good foundations. Calculus by 12th is the goal (and technically that accelerated). Calculus by 11th is supposed to be the highly accelerated. Calculus by 10th, and now people are wondering why is everyone trying to accelerate further. What’s the goal? Yes, some kids are extremely math inclined and some very small number are beautiful mind like gifted. But not than many. What’s going on here mostly is parents racing and enriching like it’s a sport.

And that is my issue with what MCPS is doing. Not in regards to these regions and special programs.

But they're trying to slow things down according to the lower performing students.

In the past, if you were in your own little silo or island it might not have mattered.

But we've been seeing that there is an overall push to slow down the curriculum for all schools based on some kind of county standard.

Honestly, it's as I said. From what we've seen, Calculus by grade 10 is the norm and there isn't anything really special or different being done trying to get kids into it. Not every kid is on that track and that's okay. The most important thing is making sure that students are grasping the concepts before moving on.

But it is as the previous poster kind of mentioned too. The track kids are put on in elementary school is pretty hard to move up from later on. So it really does start in elementary school.

Just to note, I was looking around mdreportcard and the middle schools with the largest number of Algebra 2 MCAP test takers are:
Mount View Middle-Howard-29 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Clarksville Middle-Howard-27 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Robert Frost Middle-Montgomery-26 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
White Oak Middle-Montgomery-18 test takers-16.7 percent proficiency
Burleigh Manor Middle-Howard-17 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Ellicott Mills Middle-Howard-10 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Lime Kiln Moddle-Howard-10 test takers-90 percent proficiency
Takoma Park Middle-Montgomery-10 test takers->=95 percent proficiency

I think the rest of the schools have less than ten test takers.

I'm just kind of pointing that out, where as mentioned for our area Calculus in grade 10 is very normal. There are those on a faster track and that is considered advanced. And there are more schools in other counties that looks like they offer more rigorous opportunities for students. Whereas it looks like MCPS is trying to slow students down.

It does look like MCPS is the only school district with Algebra I MCAP test takers in elementary school at Ritchie Park, Cold Spring and Bells Mill. Those are like the really really advanced students.

But while MCPS should absolutely be trying to raise the lower end and providing more accessible resources and opportunities to all students, they shouldn't be taking away or holding back from the top end too.

MCPS needs to provide opportunities for all kids. MCAP is just one test. Some kids have a bad day a bomb it. 10-11th is normal for calc. My super smart kid who we know knows the material has had a bad day and didn't test well. It happens.

Calc by 10th is not the norm and your numbers even support that. You listed under 50 students. Any given class year has 10-15k students. Even if it’s 100 students a year, that is a tiny fraction of students taking math. Why should MCPS teach two levels above Cal for such a small percentage. Thats not a good use of resources. In this scenario they should warn parents that their child will likely have to take a lower math or need to take a higher level a the collegiate level (in person or via distance learning). Providing an opportunity/access doesn’t mean the course is always going to be provided where you are located.

Also, the county has made a point of slowing down the acceleration because overall county and national results have shown that students have not grasped and retained enough foundational skills to be ready for upper level math and a science class. Central office can see the same things that other parents see which is that it’s because an acceleration race that’s not in the interest of kids. And in trying to get up with it, they are creating inequity in many places because they aren’t even providing the base acceleration everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have not read this whole thread but I have a child who would be a great fit for one of the middle school magnets but the commute would absolutely kill any downtime they might have. But our home school is not good and has no real accelerated classes aside from Math. The whole idea of these limited programs being available ONLY BY LOTTERY and only for kids who can manage the commute is insane. Every single school should have an actual advanced program and if we are going to do magnets there should be a magnet within a reasonable radius for every kid.

I guess the question is, are people saying they want an actual magnet program or do they want a good school?

I know it's not a popular opinion nowadays but schools was a major factor on where we decided to move to. If schools weren't a factor, we would've been open to a lot more areas.

Yes, the area we picked is more expensive and on the wealthier side.

So my point of view is that the magnet program is a really specialized program for the really elite few. You see the kind of things those students are showcasing at local events and it's really a different breed. We would've liked for our kids to go to those special programs. But prior to all the changes going on or proposed, we are fully okay with the local schools we're currently zoned for.

Are people asking for more access to the actual current magnet programs and what it offers. Or are people asking for better schools where their kids would have access to the more higher level and rigorous classes? ie in the groups we are in, not just in MCPS but in surrounding school systems, taking Calculus by 10th grade is very normal and there is the full expectation that the local high schools have what the students need/want for grades 11 and 12.

I'm not saying that there should be a high price of entry for "good" schools. But I'm questioning if people are really asking for magnet programs or if they're asking for better schools.

People are asking for both.

It’s a well known fact that some schools and cluster lack the more advance and specialized classes and programs. There is a sense of lower expectations because there are more EML students or less vocal parents. However evidence has shown that when provide the challenge students will rise to it. It’s also been proven in MCPS own data that the EML students are completely capable of performing at proficient or above levels once they exit the English learning program.

Taking Calculus by 10th grade is not that normal. It’s very accelerated and most college professors think it’s overkill and kids are not getting good foundations. Calculus by 12th is the goal (and technically that accelerated). Calculus by 11th is supposed to be the highly accelerated. Calculus by 10th, and now people are wondering why is everyone trying to accelerate further. What’s the goal? Yes, some kids are extremely math inclined and some very small number are beautiful mind like gifted. But not than many. What’s going on here mostly is parents racing and enriching like it’s a sport.

And that is my issue with what MCPS is doing. Not in regards to these regions and special programs.

But they're trying to slow things down according to the lower performing students.

In the past, if you were in your own little silo or island it might not have mattered.

But we've been seeing that there is an overall push to slow down the curriculum for all schools based on some kind of county standard.

Honestly, it's as I said. From what we've seen, Calculus by grade 10 is the norm and there isn't anything really special or different being done trying to get kids into it. Not every kid is on that track and that's okay. The most important thing is making sure that students are grasping the concepts before moving on.

But it is as the previous poster kind of mentioned too. The track kids are put on in elementary school is pretty hard to move up from later on. So it really does start in elementary school.

Just to note, I was looking around mdreportcard and the middle schools with the largest number of Algebra 2 MCAP test takers are:
Mount View Middle-Howard-29 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Clarksville Middle-Howard-27 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Robert Frost Middle-Montgomery-26 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
White Oak Middle-Montgomery-18 test takers-16.7 percent proficiency
Burleigh Manor Middle-Howard-17 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Ellicott Mills Middle-Howard-10 test takers->=95 percent proficiency
Lime Kiln Moddle-Howard-10 test takers-90 percent proficiency
Takoma Park Middle-Montgomery-10 test takers->=95 percent proficiency

I think the rest of the schools have less than ten test takers.

I'm just kind of pointing that out, where as mentioned for our area Calculus in grade 10 is very normal. There are those on a faster track and that is considered advanced. And there are more schools in other counties that looks like they offer more rigorous opportunities for students. Whereas it looks like MCPS is trying to slow students down.

It does look like MCPS is the only school district with Algebra I MCAP test takers in elementary school at Ritchie Park, Cold Spring and Bells Mill. Those are like the really really advanced students.

But while MCPS should absolutely be trying to raise the lower end and providing more accessible resources and opportunities to all students, they shouldn't be taking away or holding back from the top end too.

MCPS needs to provide opportunities for all kids. MCAP is just one test. Some kids have a bad day a bomb it. 10-11th is normal for calc. My super smart kid who we know knows the material has had a bad day and didn't test well. It happens.

Calc by 10th is not the norm and your numbers even support that. You listed under 50 students. Any given class year has 10-15k students. Even if it’s 100 students a year, that is a tiny fraction of students taking math. Why should MCPS teach two levels above Cal for such a small percentage. Thats not a good use of resources. In this scenario they should warn parents that their child will likely have to take a lower math or need to take a higher level a the collegiate level (in person or via distance learning). Providing an opportunity/access doesn’t mean the course is always going to be provided where you are located.

Also, the county has made a point of slowing down the acceleration because overall county and national results have shown that students have not grasped and retained enough foundational skills to be ready for upper level math and a science class. Central office can see the same things that other parents see which is that it’s because an acceleration race that’s not in the interest of kids. And in trying to get up with it, they are creating inequity in many places because they aren’t even providing the base acceleration everywhere.

So, by your logic the magnets are not a good use of MCPS money as they only help a small select group of students. If MCPS allowed more kids to start Algebra in 6th, there would be a bigger demand. Many seniors would like to take it and don't have access to MV. So, what about the seniors? You seem to justify why other kids should go without so your kids have more? Good luck getting support.

There is no distance learning. MCPS only provides it to a select few and they will not provide it to our kids. You are missing that MCPS needs to provide enough classes to graduate and they are not doing that at all schools.

I'd be thrilled if they brought virtual learning back. I'd love a hybrid option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How is a level that is only achieved by 10 middle school students at the math science magnet "very normal" to PP?

Calculus by 10th grade is not very normal. It's accelerated and unusual. I would say Calculus in 11th or 12th grade is normal.

It's normal for kids given the opportunity to have algebra in 6th. By PP standards, if only a few kids get magnet, budget wise, its also not a good use of MCPS money. We should cancel all magnets.

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone.

Just wanted to admit a mea culpa and I did indeed misspeak. The norm for Calculus in our area is 11th grade.

It's as mentioned we know a lot of kids, both in MCPS and outside of it, that took Calculus in 10th grade. I was surprised the first time I heard that a student was taking Calculus as a tenth grader. But then later on seeing more students on that track and seeing the course sequencing for math, saw how that was a realistic expectation and goal. And thinking about it when I was in high school there were students that took Calculus AB in 11th grade and then Calculus BC in 12th. So it was reasonable to think that current students are more advanced and they're finishing the course sequence earlier and it wasn't that big of a change if it just shifted one grade earlier.

But I actually just took a closer look at the actual course sequence and realized that I left out a course. So indeed the norm for our area for Calculus is one grade more than I originally stated(11th grade).

But if you all recall the Seven Keys of College Readiness that MCPS tried to push out about fifteen years ago:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/press/index.aspx?pagetype=showrelease&id=2512

One of the indicators and measures were that students earn at least a C in Algebra 1 by 8th grade. I remember at the time this seemed kind of ambitious because MCPS was already dealing with declining proficiency rates, especially in Algebra 1. Keep in mind that there are students who are capable of doing better than earning a C by 8th grade and it seems kind of like a basic requirement. Just like how it doesn't list any math courses past Algebra 2. It's pretty common that academically focused students are taking Precal and Calculus in high school.

One of the reasons why I was posting the Algebra 2 MCAP middle school numbers was because while those numbers are small, I thought that those were the truly advanced students. And that meant that the next group of students afterwards were the ones that would take Calculus by tenth grade and a bigger group of students but harder to identify which grades they were taking Algebra 1 in on mdreportcard. But again now realize the Algebra 2 students are the ones on track to take Calculus by tenth grade or earlier. But the other reason was to show that other school systems do have more schools with students in more higher level classes. And to my knowledge, these schools don't have any special magnet or IB programs. Maybe MCPS will see their numbers increase to the same numbers if they eliminate the county wide magnet programs and those potential students go to their home schools. But these are the things that I look at and evaluate when considering areas and schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hello everyone.

Just wanted to admit a mea culpa and I did indeed misspeak. The norm for Calculus in our area is 11th grade.

It's as mentioned we know a lot of kids, both in MCPS and outside of it, that took Calculus in 10th grade. I was surprised the first time I heard that a student was taking Calculus as a tenth grader. But then later on seeing more students on that track and seeing the course sequencing for math, saw how that was a realistic expectation and goal. And thinking about it when I was in high school there were students that took Calculus AB in 11th grade and then Calculus BC in 12th. So it was reasonable to think that current students are more advanced and they're finishing the course sequence earlier and it wasn't that big of a change if it just shifted one grade earlier.

But I actually just took a closer look at the actual course sequence and realized that I left out a course. So indeed the norm for our area for Calculus is one grade more than I originally stated(11th grade).

But if you all recall the Seven Keys of College Readiness that MCPS tried to push out about fifteen years ago:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/press/index.aspx?pagetype=showrelease&id=2512

One of the indicators and measures were that students earn at least a C in Algebra 1 by 8th grade. I remember at the time this seemed kind of ambitious because MCPS was already dealing with declining proficiency rates, especially in Algebra 1. Keep in mind that there are students who are capable of doing better than earning a C by 8th grade and it seems kind of like a basic requirement. Just like how it doesn't list any math courses past Algebra 2. It's pretty common that academically focused students are taking Precal and Calculus in high school.

One of the reasons why I was posting the Algebra 2 MCAP middle school numbers was because while those numbers are small, I thought that those were the truly advanced students. And that meant that the next group of students afterwards were the ones that would take Calculus by tenth grade and a bigger group of students but harder to identify which grades they were taking Algebra 1 in on mdreportcard. But again now realize the Algebra 2 students are the ones on track to take Calculus by tenth grade or earlier. But the other reason was to show that other school systems do have more schools with students in more higher level classes. And to my knowledge, these schools don't have any special magnet or IB programs. Maybe MCPS will see their numbers increase to the same numbers if they eliminate the county wide magnet programs and those potential students go to their home schools. But these are the things that I look at and evaluate when considering areas and schools.

Many of us don’t move regularly nor have an interest. Private school would be cheaper than moving for hs. The issue is only a handful of schools allow algebra in 6th so you will not see the numbers till it’s offered at all middle schools. And, that’s only one reason to choose a school. If I had to do it all over again I’d go private and force it with my kids who wanted to stay public when we looked at privates. The magnet programs for the DCC are the only schools with higher level classes. Take out those magnets and kids lose access at those schools too. Those schools allow kids to take classes there if parents are willing to drive them, but that also creates another inequity for those of us who cannot drive, wait and drive our kids back and forth daily.

This plan is bad on many levels for many and it either changes nothing or really hurts many especially in the dcc. The magnets are the least of the concerns as expanding them is a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hello everyone.

Just wanted to admit a mea culpa and I did indeed misspeak. The norm for Calculus in our area is 11th grade.

It's as mentioned we know a lot of kids, both in MCPS and outside of it, that took Calculus in 10th grade. I was surprised the first time I heard that a student was taking Calculus as a tenth grader. But then later on seeing more students on that track and seeing the course sequencing for math, saw how that was a realistic expectation and goal. And thinking about it when I was in high school there were students that took Calculus AB in 11th grade and then Calculus BC in 12th. So it was reasonable to think that current students are more advanced and they're finishing the course sequence earlier and it wasn't that big of a change if it just shifted one grade earlier.

But I actually just took a closer look at the actual course sequence and realized that I left out a course. So indeed the norm for our area for Calculus is one grade more than I originally stated(11th grade).

But if you all recall the Seven Keys of College Readiness that MCPS tried to push out about fifteen years ago:
https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/press/index.aspx?pagetype=showrelease&id=2512

One of the indicators and measures were that students earn at least a C in Algebra 1 by 8th grade. I remember at the time this seemed kind of ambitious because MCPS was already dealing with declining proficiency rates, especially in Algebra 1. Keep in mind that there are students who are capable of doing better than earning a C by 8th grade and it seems kind of like a basic requirement. Just like how it doesn't list any math courses past Algebra 2. It's pretty common that academically focused students are taking Precal and Calculus in high school.

One of the reasons why I was posting the Algebra 2 MCAP middle school numbers was because while those numbers are small, I thought that those were the truly advanced students. And that meant that the next group of students afterwards were the ones that would take Calculus by tenth grade and a bigger group of students but harder to identify which grades they were taking Algebra 1 in on mdreportcard. But again now realize the Algebra 2 students are the ones on track to take Calculus by tenth grade or earlier. But the other reason was to show that other school systems do have more schools with students in more higher level classes. And to my knowledge, these schools don't have any special magnet or IB programs. Maybe MCPS will see their numbers increase to the same numbers if they eliminate the county wide magnet programs and those potential students go to their home schools. But these are the things that I look at and evaluate when considering areas and schools.

Many of us don’t move regularly nor have an interest. Private school would be cheaper than moving for hs. The issue is only a handful of schools allow algebra in 6th so you will not see the numbers till it’s offered at all middle schools. And, that’s only one reason to choose a school. If I had to do it all over again I’d go private and force it with my kids who wanted to stay public when we looked at privates. The magnet programs for the DCC are the only schools with higher level classes. Take out those magnets and kids lose access at those schools too. Those schools allow kids to take classes there if parents are willing to drive them, but that also creates another inequity for those of us who cannot drive, wait and drive our kids back and forth daily.

This plan is bad on many levels for many and it either changes nothing or really hurts many especially in the dcc. The magnets are the least of the concerns as expanding them is a good thing.

Instead of dismantling programs that have already proven successful for many students, why not focus on strengthening your own schools and expanding advanced course offerings there — that way, everyone wins.

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Anonymous wrote:What’s frustrating here is the continued push to close the existing flagship magnets under the guise of equity. There’s no need to shut them down in order to open more programs. Someone said the county is closing the magnets to open even more and that's a good thing. The county has already tried expanding access through regional IB programs, compacted math, and ELC. The reality? Very few students enrolled, and many struggled to handle the rigor — in fact, the ELC program had to be discontinued because there simply weren’t enough students prepared for it. Secondly, look at non criteria based watered down lottery magnets or elementary and middle schools. They already are a shadow of what they were with watered down rigor and students opting not to go to them.

The flagship high school magnets work because they bring together a critical mass of the most advanced students. Now, by spreading these kids across six “regional magnets” — you’re inevitably diluting the rigor of the curriculum. That’s not “privilege”; that’s simple logic. To pretend otherwise is just wrong.

And let’s be honest: if these regional magnets move forward as planned, one of two things will happen — either many families won’t choose them, or the courses offered will no longer resemble true magnet-level academics. This will only accelerate the decline of challenging, high-level programs for the students who need them most.

What’s happening here isn’t about serving all students. It’s about optics — allowing MCPS leadership to showcase their “DEI credentials” to the people who put them in, while undermining the very programs that consistently deliver academic excellence.

Yeah thinking about it, I'm not entirely against the programs they're proposing.

But it shouldn't be broken down into six distinct regions with schools segregated from each other.

What they should be doing is seeing is maybe push out a single maybe two schools with the programs. Kind of like how the county is split between Poolesville and Blair.

Then if there is strong demand for a program, then they open it at another school and can split the areas of the county to go to which school.

Same thing with the current countywide magnet program. So there's not enough seats for everyone that wants one. They can open a third one and split the county into thirds. With the bigger areas, there should ideally be wider range in demographics and backgrounds. They can also make transportation easier for people that are interested in the programs.

Or if it's really just an equity issue, then they can rank students from more of the underrepresented schools a little bit more or guarantee a certain amount of seats for them.

For the magnet program though, the issue really starts prior to high school. I imagine a good portion of students that go to magnet programs were enrolled either at the Eastern or Takoma Park programs. Or at some gifted program in ES. By the time these students start looking at high school, they'll already be at different levels compared to others. So it seems like they should be starting on the other side at the earlier years. Making sure students have a strong foundation, give students access to advanced tracks if it suits them, etc.

I'm kind of more open to the idea of the other programs, other than magnet. But as mentioned I don't think they need six separate areas with their own offerings within their areas. Unless the demand really does show it's big enough where they need to divide the county into six regions.

If the demand was big enough, MCPS would have released that data to bolster its position on the regional programming.

They did release the data…if over 1,000 kids apply to 60 seats at PHS, doesn’t that show demand??

It goes back to what the other poster posted. 1000 applied. But how many actually qualified?

We're not at the high school level yet. So don't know how it works. But we have plenty of kids at our kids' school that qualified for the lottery but didn't get selected. That might show there is a demand for more seats.

But that's different if someone qualified but didn't meet the requirements.

I meant to say if someone applied but didn't meet the requirements.

You ask how many applied. They say my smart kids are not interested to apply.
You ask how many are qualified. They say my smart kids are smart but they are just not good at testing or happen to have a bad day in MAP testing.
You ask what criteria to use. They say you can prep MAP. You can prep CoGAT. You can prep for whatever metrics to use. So you cheat if you got in.
You ask why the majority came from a few HSs. They say, oh, my kids declined/not applied because of the long commute, or later dismissal time is conflicting with their ECs.

They can never recognize or admit that success can never be achieved without consistent self-motivation. There's a will, there's a way. Those students attended and survived these countywide programs because they are willing to challenge themselves and to make a better self, at the sacrifice of longer commute, longer school time, much more homework, away from their local friends, etc.

You're barking up the wrong tree here.

I'm a firm believer that magnet programs should have certain thresholds.

If they want to expand it to the 95 percent instead of 99 that's another thing.(which I'm not in disagreement with)

But either way they need to have a firm line on what the criteria is.

For students that are in the 94th percentile, then MCPS will need to make sure whatever is at their current school has what they need. Or give them access to it.

It's like other poster said, sure if kids are smart but don't test well, then the question is if they really have the discipline to succeed in the program.

And the people that do choose to do the commute are willing to do so for what's offered by the program. Those that aren't willing to, don't really want to. We know people that drive across the county to send their kids to the Parkland and Argyle programs and it's not easy on them.

The magnet programs are not supposed to be for everyone, like the honors for all system.

So if 1000 students met the criteria but there are only 60 seats, then there does need to be a consideration for more seats.

But anyone can send an application in or say they're interested. The question is if they're qualified.

But MCPS needs to improve the offerings at their current schools.

The rub is that the important thing is to make sure that the program succeeds in supporting MCPS's smart kids. (Or, broadly, to ensure the set of enriched/accelerated/GT offerings, locally and by magnet, adequately provides that support.)

MCPS doesn't succeed if the program is not of sufficient caliber to meet that academic need.

But it also doesn't succeed if the seats are too few in comparison to the highly able student population.

It doesn't succeed if the distances are so great as to make reasonable access across the county infeasible.

It doesn't succeed if there are "solutions" that amount to "separate but 'equal'" (e.g., in person for me but schlep to Montgomery College for thee).

It doesn't succeed if the identification paradigm is more gameable, limiting access to those of high ability, including those with few resources outside of school and those whose schools' resources have to be used to address the needs of more difficult populations at the expense of supporting populations with that ability, in favor of those highly prepared (understanding that a Venn diagram would show considerable overlap between ability and preparation).

And it doesn't succeed if it designs programs that rely on some unusual level of extant student discipline, rather than having in-program mechanisms to build the discipline that would improve program outcomes for any of the highly able.

There are many actions MCPS might take to address the needs of the GT student population. Regionalized magnets can be part of that if they adequately address the issues above (and probably several others I've failed to mention).

Should the RMIB and SMCS magnets largely remain as is? If they can support MCPS's overall success in addressing the needs of highly able learners as described above, why not?

Mathematics is a subject where you have to master easier concepts in order to be capable of learning more complicated concepts. No matter how high your IQ, if there’s a deficit in your body of knowledge, you can’t necessarily move on to more advanced lessons. For that reason, I’m not sure programs like SMCS are truly designed for the smartest students. I think they’re actually designed for the most academically accelerated and ambitious STEM students. Does it matter how they became the most academically accelerated? If admissions is based on demonstrated knowledge, is anyone “gaming” the system by knowing more content?

There’s this rift between people who think these programs are a prize for those who have been blessed with greater innate abilities versus people who think admission to these programs is earned by demonstrating greater proficiency in a subject regardless of how you achieved that proficiency. MCPS has been admitting students to SMCS on the basis of proficiency and ambition, not innate ability. If they want to change that paradigm in the name of equity, they have to completely rethink their admissions criteria.

"Prize?" How is it that that word is used in the one case and "earned" in the other. Would it not equivalently be a prize for those demonstrating proficiency?

Why is "ambition" entering into the characterization of those currently admitted, but not that of those "blessed with greater innate abilities?" Do those who might not demonstrate proficiency despite ability necessarily fail to do so because of a lack of ambition?

It is true that not all students come to the magnet table with the same level of knowledge having been acquired. However, programs can, and have, as mentioned repeatedly by program staff themselves, worked with students to ensure that they catch up during a program's early stages.

By law, the system is supposed to be identifying gifted students and providing them with education that addresses the associated need. To the extent that such students are denied access due to a combination of limitations on program seats and a resulting preparations race in which not all can compete equitably, the system fails.

Yes. They have to rethink their admissions criteria where such gameability can be reduced. And they should be expanding so that all who likely would benefit have the opportunity to do so. As to whether they also should change the most highly selective current programs, themselves, I'd revert to the earlier sentiment -- if they can serve the proper purpose, why?

This is the debate that takes place on this board routinely. Some people think any student who meets minimum criteria should be able to enroll in a special program. Other people think only the students who have demonstrated the highest levels of proficiency and consistency belong in a program. Then people point out that there’s no significant difference in proficiency between a 98th% scorer and a 97th% scorer. Then other people say that anyone who gets extra enrichment outside of school is “gaming the system” — a system specifically designed to reward those who know more content. Other people chime in that their kids are fully qualified for these programs, but the magnet schools are so far from where they live that they won’t even consider the magnets because of the commute. Meanwhile, still other families are taking magnet programs into consideration in all the choices they make, such as where to live and which extracurricular activities they choose for their kids.

MCPS isn’t testing 8th graders for giftedness. These programs aren’t designed specifically for the gifted population. They are designed for the kids who know the most content, will consistently outperform almost all of their peers on grades and test scores, and are committed to prioritizing academic challenges over other interests. That’s what I mean by ambition. Attracting students who are bright and have potential, but want to have a reasonable commute, participate in athletics at a high level, get an adequate amount of sleep, have a flourishing social life, and stay with their home school friends has not been MCPS’s goal for magnet programs. People complain about equity when kids who have benefited from extracurricular math enrichment get into SMCS, but SMCS isn’t a program for kids who aren’t hungry to do any math outside of the typical course load.

rightly so. at some point 'potential' is irrelevant. why gamble with a kid who supposedly has potential but doesn't know math when you can have a kid who actually knows math? it's the latter kids who needs advanced math classes, not the former one.

Many of our kids do need advanced math and aren't getting it. As in MV as a junior or senior. So, you want us to support your kids, you need to support ours and stop putting them down assuming they are less capable.

Believe me, no one is insulting students who need MV in high school. We do want to support your kids. More seats, even having more than 2 locations for special programs isn’t the problem. Going from 2 to 6 locations rapidly is the problem.

Its not a problem at ALL. You are the only on emaking it a problem. Here's the thing. Not everyone wants that program. Its a very ridged program with little flexibility. Hence, we turned it down. But, in turning it down, we don't have access to things like MV so right now its a problem for my child who will not have enough math to graduate. They went from Calc BC to now Calc AB because it was all that was offered.

So your dc was offered MV via admission to SMCS, but declined because they didn’t like the SMCS curriculum as a whole? Even with a shorter commute, your dc wouldn’t have enrolled in SMCS? This is not a situation that hundreds of students are in each year. This is a niche issue, yet your reason for being angry about this petition is that that SMCS students are such a tiny portion of the population that you don’t think they should expect anyone else’s support. What a hypocrite you are.

Even if there are 6 SMCS programs throughout the county, and enough teachers and qualified students to offer MV at all 6 locations, MCPS isn’t necessarily going to guarantee MV enrollment to students who aren’t in SMCS. What if the SMCS students fill the MV class(es) and there aren’t enough non SMCS students to meet the minimum threshold to form another class? This is a very likely scenario if many fewer schools feed into each SMCS program because the new programs cover much smaller regions. These proposed changes may not even benefit kids like yours.

My kid is not an artist. She has zero interest in paintings. She’s not a theater kid. She enrolled in the humanities magnet even though it requires art history, art projects, many trips to art museums, and sitting through avant guarde adaptations of Shakespeare’s plays. She did it for the peer group, the class discussions, and the advanced research, writing, and history classes. She has been grateful for the experience and says it’s changed her life. Sometimes in life you have to accept the things you don’t want in order to get the things you do want.