Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

We have a poster here who is upset that the NYT published an article that made Hamas look ghastly and vampiric (due to Hamas’ own actions) so yeah, I’d say that not everyone here is 100% against Hamas.

"I'm 100% against Hamas but I'm happy to come here and post prolifically about how it was actually the IDF that killed and burned all of the Israelis on 10/7" 🤡

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

DP there is very little Hamas propaganda. Most of the posts are Israel propaganda and fantasy. Every time israel goes on a murdering spree you will see stories like those in the NYT to justify their actions. There is no justification form Israel’s action in Gaza. I have moved from neutral on Israel to seeing it and its supporters as an evil force in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the reasons above, I understand why Israel is needed so Jews can have a safe place. They aren’t home in the US if that makes sense but I never see Israel explain itself this way . Palestinian kids don’t even learn about the Holocaust so they really don’t know why Jews are there or why they need a Jewish homeland or Jewish state. We do need more dialogue to get to some sort of peace and Mutual understanding

You should learn why Israel was created in the Middle East. It had nothing to do with the European Jewish population wanting to go there; sure, some moved there in the late 1800s. It had to do with the leaders of the European nations not wanting to part with an inch of land for Jewish people in Europe and getting them off their hands and putting that "pesky little problem" out of their hands.

This was due to antisemitism, and then after the Second World War, to some guilt that European powers turned a blind eye. To this day, you have antisemitism in Europe, in many strata. In fact, post-Second World War, Germans tried to paint themselves as victims of Hitler and the Nazis and deny their knowledge and involvement in the Holocaust. Major collaborator countries of the Nazis denied their involvement in the "Jewish problem" and rewrote their Second World War histories to become victims. That includes Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, France, Netherlands, all Scandinavian countries, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Hungary, etc. To this day, you can go to the Jasenovac concentration camp and have insults hurled at you by Croatian passersby. My Croatian friend was taught in 1960 Croatia/Yugoslavia that Croats were victims of their own version of Nazis. She actually believes that Croats rescued Jews, but they did not. Italians in Dalmatia actually did! Even while allied with Germany. Many academic Croatian historians are calling the camp an amusement and fun soccer and music-loving camp! Those who write the facts received death threats in Croatia!

Shall we talk about the Canadian parliament giving a standing ovation to a Nazi who was introduced as a Second World War hero who, even back then, fought against the Russians! And he was not from present-day Ukraine, so we can say his family was exterminated by Stalin , he was from present-day Poland where there was no famine prior to the WWII. The simple statement that he fought against the Russians, meant that he fought with the Germans! I do not care what their excuse is; it is unacceptable to give a standing ovation to the person who killed the Jewish population.


I can't tell the difference between you and him.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

DP there is very little Hamas propaganda. Most of the posts are Israel propaganda and fantasy. Every time israel goes on a murdering spree you will see stories like those in the NYT to justify their actions. There is no justification form Israel’s action in Gaza. I have moved from neutral on Israel to seeing it and its supporters as an evil force in the world.

Oh really? It's Israel's propaganda that the IDF deliberately targeted Baptist Hospital and killed 500 people? (when in truth it was a Hamas rocket that exploded in the parking lot and killed nowhere near that many) - it's Israel's propaganda that it was actually the IDF who went out and slaughtered all of those Israelis on 10/7 and not Hamas?

really?

REALLY?

REALLY?????

You are a clown. 🤡

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

DP there is very little Hamas propaganda. Most of the posts are Israel propaganda and fantasy. Every time israel goes on a murdering spree you will see stories like those in the NYT to justify their actions. There is no justification form Israel’s action in Gaza. I have moved from neutral on Israel to seeing it and its supporters as an evil force in the world.

The families of the 1200 Israelis butchered and murdered by Hamas on 10/7 would disagree with you and kind of outrank you on relevance.

[Anonymous]

"I'm not pro-Hamas but I want to come on DCUM and spend pages and pages and pages and pages writing about how evil Israel is with not a single word or acknowledgement of Hamas and its war crimes and atrocities and with zero acknowledgement that the invasion and bombing of Gaza only happened because Hamas attacked and murdered hundreds of innocent civilians on October 7th."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

That’s a lot of words to say “I’m a vicious anti-Semite who freely uses the most ancient of anti-Semitic tropes.”

Do you realize just how awful you sound to rational people who aren’t gleefully stewing in anti-Semitism day in and day out? I’m genuinely curious, to quote you.

- non-Jew, since obviously if I were Jewish you’d start going on about the protocols of Zion or whatever. And I feel dirty even talking to you, like I’m giving credence to someone who would have watched the Hamas videos for fun.

You may be surprised to learn that I am a secular Ashkenazi Jew, but that's neither here nor there. Many orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in general and the current Israeli government in particular. Don't let that get in the way of trying to win a cheap point by screeching about antisemitism (which is antisemitic in itself).

What is relevant is that nobody has answered my question about rape videos. Do they or don't they exist? And why do you throw up smokescreens of insults rather than trying to address my arguments? Well, we know why, but couldn't you at least try to be honest enough to address my actual statements instead of lying about them? When you so obviously lie about and misrepresent what I have said, why do you expect me to naively believe anything else you might say?

Nobody has addressed my point about the lying. Given that the 40 beheaded babies/baby baked in an oven/babies on clotheslines stories were, well, flat-out lies, why is is "antisemitic" to wonder how true similar stories might be? It's the lying, stupid. When someone lies and lies and then lies some more, you start to wonder about the credibility of every story they tell. Kind of like when someone screams "antisemitism" again and again and again some more, you start to wonder if maybe they're trying to bury the truth under all that faux indignation and hysteria. Prove me wrong. Show you have some integrity and explain to me why I should believe the chopped-off-breast story when so many other stories have turned out to be lies. What differentiates that story from the babies-on-clotheslines story? Why would it be unreasonable to want some sort of verification, given that so many of these stories turned out to be false?

And please don't tell me I'm "denying atrocities" because I "hate Jews" or any similar dishonest and evasive craziness. I acknowledge that atrocities occurred. I even said I think there were probably rapes and that rape is "horrific." I am not dismissing unverified claims. Some may very well be true. Under the circumstances, however, I would simply like to see some sort of authentication before I make up my mind one way or the other. What is your problem with that?

Since you’re so fixated about the lying, let’s start with your lies first. Give me hard and solid proof that Israel — specifically Israel, not an individual Jew unless you are taking the position that one Jew speaks for all of Israel — but that “Israel” (your words) said that there were specifically 40 beheaded babies, a baby baked in an oven, and a baby on a clothesline. Show me where “Israel” as a single entity lied repeatedly about every single one of these, because that’s your assertion: that “Israel,” not an individual, not an entity in Israel, not an individual Jewish reporter, not a Jewish extremist, not even the IDF, but that “Israel” itself lies. So show me that proof. Find me the evidence that singular Israel collectively and repeatedly lied. You say it happened as a fact and you’ve repeated that “fact” over and over. So show me your mountains of evidence.

Spoiler alert: you are lying.

And yes. I will call out antisemitism when I see it, and it’s profoundly antisemitic to repeatedly and chillingly talk about how “Israel” lies all the time. That is the most ancient of antisemitic tropes and your anger at being identified for using that trope is not my problem.

Well, that's easy. Poor, old Biden (of whom I am inordinately fond, but I think he needs to step down) shuffled home from Israel talking about beheaded babies after meeting with Netanyahu, who speaks for ... Israel. Netanyahu also showed Blinken photographs of the charred remains of a child, leading him to believe the child was burned by Hamas. We now know that those burned on 10/7 were almost certainly burned by the Israeli military. This article provides more details: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-28/ty-article/.highlight/in-a-perfect-storm-of-deceit-and-denial-netanyahus-lies-start-to-collide/00000189-98fa-d5eb-abcb-f9fe850c0000
And more of the same: https://hebhjamal.substack.com/p/a-list-of-israeli-lies-propaganda

Israel has discredited itself. Recent polls in Israel show that Israelis increasingly distrust Netanyahu. His ratings are plummeting and his nationalist base is beginning to desert him. There's a better than zero chance he may end up in jail on corruption charges, which might be the best thing to happen to Israel in a long time.

Why are you spreading false Hamas propaganda, and wild conspiracy theories that 10/7 was some kind of false flag staged by the IDF?

Now I'm truly puzzled. Where do I claim that 10/7 was staged by the IDF? This is (yawn) another straw man. Let me guess -- you will follow up with another ad hominem? Can I believe that 10/7 was NOT staged by the IDF AND also believe that the babies on a clothes line stories is untrue? Or are you insisting that IF I believe that 10/7 was NOT staged by the IDF, I must ALSO believe the babies-on-a-clothesline IS true? Do you understand that, as someone above just pointed out, two claims need not be mutually exclusive?

Wow. You really are a piece of work. Right above this,

"We now know that those burned on 10/7 were almost certainly burned by the Israeli military."

Unreal that anyone would try and claim that the 10/7 violence was Israeli military when we have HOURS AND HOURS of Hamas video showing it was in fact Hamas.

Stop playing dumb games here. You are really failing badly here.

She has no evidence that the IDF did any of the burning of Israel civilians just like she has no evidence that IDF stated “40 beheaded babies” anywhere. I hate calling her a she, because that would imply that she could potentially be a mother, and that would be the greatest tragedy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I'm not pro-Hamas but I want to come on DCUM and spend pages and pages and pages and pages writing about how evil Israel is with not a single word or acknowledgement of Hamas and its war crimes and atrocities and with zero acknowledgement that the invasion and bombing of Gaza only happened because Hamas attacked and murdered hundreds of innocent civilians on October 7th."

And don't forget to include all of the insane Hamas conspiracy theories, like "it wasn't even Hamas, it was the IDF that murdered and butchered and burned all of those Israeli civilians on 10/7"

But totally not pro-Hamas, nope, not at all /s

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

That’s a lot of words to say “I’m a vicious anti-Semite who freely uses the most ancient of anti-Semitic tropes.”

Do you realize just how awful you sound to rational people who aren’t gleefully stewing in anti-Semitism day in and day out? I’m genuinely curious, to quote you.

- non-Jew, since obviously if I were Jewish you’d start going on about the protocols of Zion or whatever. And I feel dirty even talking to you, like I’m giving credence to someone who would have watched the Hamas videos for fun.

You may be surprised to learn that I am a secular Ashkenazi Jew, but that's neither here nor there. Many orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in general and the current Israeli government in particular. Don't let that get in the way of trying to win a cheap point by screeching about antisemitism (which is antisemitic in itself).

What is relevant is that nobody has answered my question about rape videos. Do they or don't they exist? And why do you throw up smokescreens of insults rather than trying to address my arguments? Well, we know why, but couldn't you at least try to be honest enough to address my actual statements instead of lying about them? When you so obviously lie about and misrepresent what I have said, why do you expect me to naively believe anything else you might say?

Nobody has addressed my point about the lying. Given that the 40 beheaded babies/baby baked in an oven/babies on clotheslines stories were, well, flat-out lies, why is is "antisemitic" to wonder how true similar stories might be? It's the lying, stupid. When someone lies and lies and then lies some more, you start to wonder about the credibility of every story they tell. Kind of like when someone screams "antisemitism" again and again and again some more, you start to wonder if maybe they're trying to bury the truth under all that faux indignation and hysteria. Prove me wrong. Show you have some integrity and explain to me why I should believe the chopped-off-breast story when so many other stories have turned out to be lies. What differentiates that story from the babies-on-clotheslines story? Why would it be unreasonable to want some sort of verification, given that so many of these stories turned out to be false?

And please don't tell me I'm "denying atrocities" because I "hate Jews" or any similar dishonest and evasive craziness. I acknowledge that atrocities occurred. I even said I think there were probably rapes and that rape is "horrific." I am not dismissing unverified claims. Some may very well be true. Under the circumstances, however, I would simply like to see some sort of authentication before I make up my mind one way or the other. What is your problem with that?

Since you’re so fixated about the lying, let’s start with your lies first. Give me hard and solid proof that Israel — specifically Israel, not an individual Jew unless you are taking the position that one Jew speaks for all of Israel — but that “Israel” (your words) said that there were specifically 40 beheaded babies, a baby baked in an oven, and a baby on a clothesline. Show me where “Israel” as a single entity lied repeatedly about every single one of these, because that’s your assertion: that “Israel,” not an individual, not an entity in Israel, not an individual Jewish reporter, not a Jewish extremist, not even the IDF, but that “Israel” itself lies. So show me that proof. Find me the evidence that singular Israel collectively and repeatedly lied. You say it happened as a fact and you’ve repeated that “fact” over and over. So show me your mountains of evidence.

Spoiler alert: you are lying.

And yes. I will call out antisemitism when I see it, and it’s profoundly antisemitic to repeatedly and chillingly talk about how “Israel” lies all the time. That is the most ancient of antisemitic tropes and your anger at being identified for using that trope is not my problem.

DP no it isn't and your transparently cheap rhetorical tricks do nothing but show your own personal lack of credibility and integrity.

Israel is not the same word as Israeli and neither of those words equal Jew. Treating those three different words as synonymous is ironically deeply anti-Semitic.

You are wrong but let’s focus on facts here: provide the extensive and hard proof that “Israel” as a singular whole lied about 49 beheaded babies, the baked baby, and the baby on the clothesline. Not a single Israeli reporter, not an organization, not a Jewish extremist, not the IDF, not a spokesman for Likud, but “Israel” as a singular whole. Because that’s what you said. You said “Israel” lies and “Israel” lied specifically about those three things. So find me the proof of “Israel” lying.

You are twisting and turning here because you can’t provide that proof and you know it. That’s why you are attempting to lash out at me: because you’ve been exposed.

You're a clown lost in your own smugness.

"Israel" is not an animate object. It does not have the ability to do anything. When someone says a country, any country, does something they are always referring to its government or leaders. Because as should be woefully obvious a political construct is not capable of thought, speech, actions or anything else.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

[Anonymous]

This conflict, both in the Middle East, and here in DCUM-land, needs a good Venn diagram break for the sanity of everyone involved.

1. Hamas (and any other terrorist group intent on causing harm to Palestinians or Israelis) is despicable, is an obstacle to peace, and should be dismantled with extreme prejudice. All members of Hamas (and such other groups) are Palestinian (I think?), but not all Palestinians are members of Hamas (or such other groups).

2. As to #1 above, not all Palestinians or Muslims outside the Middle East are members of Hamas (or such other groups) and not all Palestinians or Muslims outside the Middle East are supportive of Hamas (or such other groups).

3. The Likud coalition governing the State of Israel right now and the settler community they enable are despicable, are obstacles to peace, and should be shown the door by Israeli voters. Certain among them possibly referred to the ICC for criminal prosecution. All Likudniks are Israeli (I think?), most are Jewish, but not all Israelis are Likudniks and not all Israelis are Jewish.

4. As to #3 above, not all Jews outside the Middle East are Likudniks and not all Jews outside the Middle East are supportive of the Likud coalition government and the settler community in Israel.

Anyone finding dispute with the foregoing?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

DP there is very little Hamas propaganda. Most of the posts are Israel propaganda and fantasy. Every time israel goes on a murdering spree you will see stories like those in the NYT to justify their actions. There is no justification form Israel’s action in Gaza. I have moved from neutral on Israel to seeing it and its supporters as an evil force in the world.

DP. Well, Hamas’ own videos have moved me from being a supporter of a free Palestine in a two-state solution to being a supporter of Israel so I guess we balance out. I suppose you are correct, though, that the videos Hamas proudly distributed on its own are not actually Hamas propaganda. They are proof of what Hamas is doing, live-streamed torture that they cheer on. I don’t think it’s propaganda when you are live-streaming torture you are proud of. So in that sense, yes, Hamas isn’t actually showing propaganda in their snuff videos. They are showing who they are exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The victim mentality is really beyond what I even imagined.

Literally murdering thousands of kids and still screaming “everyone hates us for no reason!!”

It’s certifiable

It is certifiable that so many people hate Israelis and Jews, no?

It that every Jew is responsible for what Israeli policy is. Must mean every Muslim is pro Hamas / pro terrorist.

This is a good point. "If you don't support Hamas and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an Islamophobe who wants to genocide all Muslims" makes as much sense as "If you don't support Israel and believe everything it says unconditionally, you must be an antisemite who wants to genocide all Jews."

I suspect the previous poster(s) understands this, but they're backed into a corner and can only spew a smokescreen of insults. Which is a very dishonest practice.

DP

Everyone here is 100.00% anti-Hamas. What about that fact don't you get? Stop trying to gin up a defense for what Israel is doing by arguing that those opposed to those actions are supportive of Hamas. It's pathetic. Even you can do better.

Perhaps my post wasn't sufficiently clear? Of course everyone here is anti-Hamas and, more specifically, opposes its actions on 10/7. I was making a comparison between absurd conclusions. Nobody believes that opposing Hamas means you're a genocidal Islamophobe who hates Muslims. Similarly, nobody believes that opposing Israel means you're a genocidal antisemite who hates Jews. Well, almost nobody in both cases. Some people are deliberately obtuse or deceitful or too fanatical to think straight, and my post was aimed at these folk. I don't support either statement, which is ... kind of why I put them both in quotes.

That's objectively false. Can't be anti-Hamas and yet be their direct mouthpiece repeating their false claims and conspiracy theories.

Which I have done ... where, exactly? Another straw man. Sorry, but this is getting very boring.

Don't know if it was you or who, as posts are anonymous, but I'm definitely not the only one here who keeps seeing Hamas propaganda and false talking points popping up over and over again.

Which makes your role here what...? A confused person who doesn't know what's going on? Someone who is naive and lacks critical thinking skills? Clearly not, since you are also hyperfocused on rhetorical devices, like "ad hominem" and "strawman" which tells me you are here specifically to argue. Yet if that's the case, then why are you ignoring the instances where Hamas talking points are being used? Perhaps you overestimate the notion of plausible deniability?

The PP keeps throwing around the terms “ad hominem” and “strawman” as an attempt to discredit the detailed NYT reporting. She’s using those terms (incorrectly but whatever) to distract from the objectively horrific and meticulously detailed description of the vicious sexual torture used by Hamas on 10/7. If she can get people to mentally associate that detailed reporting with cheap rhetorical devices, it helps her cause. It’s a classic propagandist move, albeit an easily identifiable one. She’s a propagandist, just not a very skilled one.

DP

The NY Times account is horrifying. It would be impossible to look into the eyes of those parents and not feel tremendous sadness for them (and for the world, frankly, since what happened to their daughter is just horrific for our shared sense of humanity).

I can't take the position that I'm sure the reporting is not true, but there is something about this reporting that doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't think I have ever come across reporting related to severe trauma (and this reported trauma is probably as severe as one can imagine) where the eyewitness accounts are even 10% as vivid and detailed as the ones featured in the Times. I'm not prepared to call anyone involved a liar, but I would just gently point out that shock and trauma, at least in my experience, just does not lend itself to a very vivid and detailed memory of the events in question - for most people, anyway.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

That’s a lot of words to say “I’m a vicious anti-Semite who freely uses the most ancient of anti-Semitic tropes.”

Do you realize just how awful you sound to rational people who aren’t gleefully stewing in anti-Semitism day in and day out? I’m genuinely curious, to quote you.

- non-Jew, since obviously if I were Jewish you’d start going on about the protocols of Zion or whatever. And I feel dirty even talking to you, like I’m giving credence to someone who would have watched the Hamas videos for fun.

You may be surprised to learn that I am a secular Ashkenazi Jew, but that's neither here nor there. Many orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in general and the current Israeli government in particular. Don't let that get in the way of trying to win a cheap point by screeching about antisemitism (which is antisemitic in itself).

What is relevant is that nobody has answered my question about rape videos. Do they or don't they exist? And why do you throw up smokescreens of insults rather than trying to address my arguments? Well, we know why, but couldn't you at least try to be honest enough to address my actual statements instead of lying about them? When you so obviously lie about and misrepresent what I have said, why do you expect me to naively believe anything else you might say?

Nobody has addressed my point about the lying. Given that the 40 beheaded babies/baby baked in an oven/babies on clotheslines stories were, well, flat-out lies, why is is "antisemitic" to wonder how true similar stories might be? It's the lying, stupid. When someone lies and lies and then lies some more, you start to wonder about the credibility of every story they tell. Kind of like when someone screams "antisemitism" again and again and again some more, you start to wonder if maybe they're trying to bury the truth under all that faux indignation and hysteria. Prove me wrong. Show you have some integrity and explain to me why I should believe the chopped-off-breast story when so many other stories have turned out to be lies. What differentiates that story from the babies-on-clotheslines story? Why would it be unreasonable to want some sort of verification, given that so many of these stories turned out to be false?

And please don't tell me I'm "denying atrocities" because I "hate Jews" or any similar dishonest and evasive craziness. I acknowledge that atrocities occurred. I even said I think there were probably rapes and that rape is "horrific." I am not dismissing unverified claims. Some may very well be true. Under the circumstances, however, I would simply like to see some sort of authentication before I make up my mind one way or the other. What is your problem with that?

Since you’re so fixated about the lying, let’s start with your lies first. Give me hard and solid proof that Israel — specifically Israel, not an individual Jew unless you are taking the position that one Jew speaks for all of Israel — but that “Israel” (your words) said that there were specifically 40 beheaded babies, a baby baked in an oven, and a baby on a clothesline. Show me where “Israel” as a single entity lied repeatedly about every single one of these, because that’s your assertion: that “Israel,” not an individual, not an entity in Israel, not an individual Jewish reporter, not a Jewish extremist, not even the IDF, but that “Israel” itself lies. So show me that proof. Find me the evidence that singular Israel collectively and repeatedly lied. You say it happened as a fact and you’ve repeated that “fact” over and over. So show me your mountains of evidence.

Spoiler alert: you are lying.

And yes. I will call out antisemitism when I see it, and it’s profoundly antisemitic to repeatedly and chillingly talk about how “Israel” lies all the time. That is the most ancient of antisemitic tropes and your anger at being identified for using that trope is not my problem.

DP no it isn't and your transparently cheap rhetorical tricks do nothing but show your own personal lack of credibility and integrity.

Israel is not the same word as Israeli and neither of those words equal Jew. Treating those three different words as synonymous is ironically deeply anti-Semitic.

You are wrong but let’s focus on facts here: provide the extensive and hard proof that “Israel” as a singular whole lied about 49 beheaded babies, the baked baby, and the baby on the clothesline. Not a single Israeli reporter, not an organization, not a Jewish extremist, not the IDF, not a spokesman for Likud, but “Israel” as a singular whole. Because that’s what you said. You said “Israel” lies and “Israel” lied specifically about those three things. So find me the proof of “Israel” lying.

You are twisting and turning here because you can’t provide that proof and you know it. That’s why you are attempting to lash out at me: because you’ve been exposed.

I think this shifted the sands significantly more to Hamas . Nobody would sympathize or justify a baby beheader.

I remember the initial days the support was primarily to Israel and outrage toward Hamas but then as the Gazan death toll increased, it shifted . It’s almost like 10/7 gets more forgotten by the the more Gazans die. It helps Hamas’ hand and they knew it. Palestinians need to realize this. Hamas was relaxing in the tunnels while hell on earth was brought to Gaza above ground.

Israel happens to have the least sharpest leaders of its history in power now running the show so this is a mess until they get replaced. The settler Ben Zion is the one who told the beheaded babies story to the media and Netanyahu had to deny it because Israelis were outraged when they heard it happened .These are the settlers that Israelis themselves do not particularly like .

The point is Israelis and Palestinians need to cut off their governments right now because they are awful. Hamas And Netanyahu are friends and always worked together and Netanyahu ignored intelligence about 10/7. They both need to go

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I couldn't get through the NY Times article. The brutalization of women was planned and carried out in multiple locations on 10/7. Not only is Hamas and its supporters a death cult but it is filled with rapists.

Where were the protests, the signs, the marches for these women? Michelle "bring back our girls" Obama? Susan Sarandon? UN Women? It's like rape has become fashionable again when the victims are Jews.

The sexual abuse of women on 10/7 or on any other day is horrific and disgusting. I'm sure everyone here wishes none of that ever happened.

It's sad that the initial reports were met with guarded skepticism, but consider that we were also told that 40 babies were beheaded, a baby was baked in an oven, and dead babies were found hanging on a clothesline. These stories proved to be untrue. The more lurid and preposterous the claim, the less likely it was to be true, even though some assertions were allegedly based on "eyewitness testimonies" (which were later retracted). We also heard that Palestinian militants had burned many people alive. It turned out, and Israelis who observed the events of the day confirmed this, that in fact the IDF had done most, if not all, of the burning, including burning hundreds of Palestinian militants to death (as has been pointed out, they "did not burn themselves").

Unfortunately, Israel is currently led by some ethically challenged people. To put it bluntly, they lie. A lot. Given Israel's lack of credibility, it would be naive to unquestioningly accept any of its assertions. Israel's moral challenges also make it difficult to believe so-called confessions of rape by captured militants. Israel beats "confessions" out of its detainees, so these "admissions" cannot be assumed to be valid in every case.

Additionally, there is no available forensic evidence of rape. In a Times of Israel report, it is claimed that "physical evidence of sexual assault was not collected from corpses by Israel’s overtaxed morgue facilities." Additionally, "the government has not released explicit footage or pressed rape survivors to share their stories. Nor have the forensic services released formal reports on whether their findings were consistent with sexual abuse."
(https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/amp/).

I think it likely that, sadly, women were raped on 10/7. I think it equally likely that some of the rape stories we have been told are fabricated. It would be entirely out of character for Israel not to lie about rape, given that it has lied about virtually everything else and is particularly prone to lying about being victimized.

Wow. To me, a non-Israeli and non-Jew, this just reads as horrific sexual rape and torture apologia. I find your entire screed genuinely chilling. You probably don’t even care how vicious you sound, but it’s awful.

You know what I did immediately after 10/7? I went to Hamas’ own telegram channels and watched their own videos, which they kept up until they realized how bad it made them look. You obviously did not and obviously don’t care anyhow, given that the victims were Jewish. I will never forget what I saw. Never.

Did you see any videos portraying rape on the Hamas channels? I am genuinely curious.

Your assessment of my sentiments is entirely incorrect. I have never apologized for rape or torture, and I clearly call sexual abuse "horrific and disgusting," so your conclusions are unfounded. When I point out that the claims of babies being beheaded and hung on clotheslines are false (as in, people lied), this does not mean I don't care about beheading babies or hanging them up with the laundry (in truth, I strenuously object to roasting children or pinning them, either dead or alive, to clotheslines.) It means I have a commitment to the truth. Similarly, I am not detracting from the severity of rape when I point out that Israel has very little credibility, so it would be naive to blindly believe everything it claims (I did acknowledge that I think some of the claims are probably accurate). Perhaps you could try to separate my disinclination to embrace lies as support for whatever is being lied about?

If someone tells you that they met Elvis last Monday and Bigfoot last Tuesday, you could be excused for being a little skeptical if they told you they met Justin Bieber on Wednesday. While it's possible the latest claim is true, one might wonder if this person is prone to hallucinating or is perhaps just plain telling porkie pies.

If I may say so, it seems to me people with an agenda are being rather theatrical and performative about some of Israel's claims. We were all expected to work ourselves into a lather, despise Palestinians, embrace Israel unconditionally, celebrate massacring children in Gaza, and fall about clutching our pearls and collapsing on the fainting couch because Hamas baked a baby in an oven and hung dead babies on a clothesline, except ... that didn't happen. Why would we be stupid enough to blindly believe anything else Israel claims after that? And why would proof of such extreme stupidity be "chilling" or "vicious"? And why would one's very well-founded skepticism indicate lack of sympathy for the victims in the unlikely event something Israel claims actually turns out to be true?

Terrible, cruel, and unjust things undoubtedly happened on 10/7. I don't think anyone denies that. However, the Israeli authorities lie so compulsively that one would have to be extremely dull-witted or childlike not to want some independent verification of anything they tell you.

That’s a lot of words to say “I’m a vicious anti-Semite who freely uses the most ancient of anti-Semitic tropes.”

Do you realize just how awful you sound to rational people who aren’t gleefully stewing in anti-Semitism day in and day out? I’m genuinely curious, to quote you.

- non-Jew, since obviously if I were Jewish you’d start going on about the protocols of Zion or whatever. And I feel dirty even talking to you, like I’m giving credence to someone who would have watched the Hamas videos for fun.

You may be surprised to learn that I am a secular Ashkenazi Jew, but that's neither here nor there. Many orthodox Jews oppose Zionism in general and the current Israeli government in particular. Don't let that get in the way of trying to win a cheap point by screeching about antisemitism (which is antisemitic in itself).

What is relevant is that nobody has answered my question about rape videos. Do they or don't they exist? And why do you throw up smokescreens of insults rather than trying to address my arguments? Well, we know why, but couldn't you at least try to be honest enough to address my actual statements instead of lying about them? When you so obviously lie about and misrepresent what I have said, why do you expect me to naively believe anything else you might say?

Nobody has addressed my point about the lying. Given that the 40 beheaded babies/baby baked in an oven/babies on clotheslines stories were, well, flat-out lies, why is is "antisemitic" to wonder how true similar stories might be? It's the lying, stupid. When someone lies and lies and then lies some more, you start to wonder about the credibility of every story they tell. Kind of like when someone screams "antisemitism" again and again and again some more, you start to wonder if maybe they're trying to bury the truth under all that faux indignation and hysteria. Prove me wrong. Show you have some integrity and explain to me why I should believe the chopped-off-breast story when so many other stories have turned out to be lies. What differentiates that story from the babies-on-clotheslines story? Why would it be unreasonable to want some sort of verification, given that so many of these stories turned out to be false?

And please don't tell me I'm "denying atrocities" because I "hate Jews" or any similar dishonest and evasive craziness. I acknowledge that atrocities occurred. I even said I think there were probably rapes and that rape is "horrific." I am not dismissing unverified claims. Some may very well be true. Under the circumstances, however, I would simply like to see some sort of authentication before I make up my mind one way or the other. What is your problem with that?

Since you’re so fixated about the lying, let’s start with your lies first. Give me hard and solid proof that Israel — specifically Israel, not an individual Jew unless you are taking the position that one Jew speaks for all of Israel — but that “Israel” (your words) said that there were specifically 40 beheaded babies, a baby baked in an oven, and a baby on a clothesline. Show me where “Israel” as a single entity lied repeatedly about every single one of these, because that’s your assertion: that “Israel,” not an individual, not an entity in Israel, not an individual Jewish reporter, not a Jewish extremist, not even the IDF, but that “Israel” itself lies. So show me that proof. Find me the evidence that singular Israel collectively and repeatedly lied. You say it happened as a fact and you’ve repeated that “fact” over and over. So show me your mountains of evidence.

Spoiler alert: you are lying.

And yes. I will call out antisemitism when I see it, and it’s profoundly antisemitic to repeatedly and chillingly talk about how “Israel” lies all the time. That is the most ancient of antisemitic tropes and your anger at being identified for using that trope is not my problem.

Well, that's easy. Poor, old Biden (of whom I am inordinately fond, but I think he needs to step down) shuffled home from Israel talking about beheaded babies after meeting with Netanyahu, who speaks for ... Israel. Netanyahu also showed Blinken photographs of the charred remains of a child, leading him to believe the child was burned by Hamas. We now know that those burned on 10/7 were almost certainly burned by the Israeli military. This article provides more details: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-28/ty-article/.highlight/in-a-perfect-storm-of-deceit-and-denial-netanyahus-lies-start-to-collide/00000189-98fa-d5eb-abcb-f9fe850c0000
And more of the same: https://hebhjamal.substack.com/p/a-list-of-israeli-lies-propaganda

Israel has discredited itself. Recent polls in Israel show that Israelis increasingly distrust Netanyahu. His ratings are plummeting and his nationalist base is beginning to desert him. There's a better than zero chance he may end up in jail on corruption charges, which might be the best thing to happen to Israel in a long time.

Why are you spreading false Hamas propaganda, and wild conspiracy theories that 10/7 was some kind of false flag staged by the IDF?

Now I'm truly puzzled. Where do I claim that 10/7 was staged by the IDF? This is (yawn) another straw man. Let me guess -- you will follow up with another ad hominem? Can I believe that 10/7 was NOT staged by the IDF AND also believe that the babies on a clothes line stories is untrue? Or are you insisting that IF I believe that 10/7 was NOT staged by the IDF, I must ALSO believe the babies-on-a-clothesline IS true? Do you understand that, as someone above just pointed out, two claims need not be mutually exclusive?

Wow. You really are a piece of work. Right above this,

"We now know that those burned on 10/7 were almost certainly burned by the Israeli military."

Unreal that anyone would try and claim that the 10/7 violence was Israeli military when we have HOURS AND HOURS of Hamas video showing it was in fact Hamas.

Stop playing dumb games here. You are really failing badly here.

She has no evidence that the IDF did any of the burning of Israel civilians just like she has no evidence that IDF stated “40 beheaded babies” anywhere. I hate calling her a she, because that would imply that she could potentially be a mother, and that would be the greatest tragedy.

There is ample evidence that “some” of the 10/7 damage was caused by IDF. That evidence is witness reports of helicopter and tank fire, the damage that can only be caused by tank and helicopter shelling, and burned bodies of Hamas militants who most assuredly did not self immolate.