De factor segregation threatens MCPS

[Anonymous]

Here's an analysis of the demographic effects of basing school assignments on where the student lives, especially looking at the Downcounty and Northeast Consortiums vs. the W schools and B-CC.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/19285/de-facto-segregation-threatens-montgomery-public-schools/

[Anonymous]

^drat, there's no r in "de facto"

[Anonymous]

It is absolutely true and this is a good analysis.

However it does not mention some of factors making the W-clusters somewhat less attractive: the significant overcrowding as parents load up these neighborhoods trying to take advantage of the "private publics," and the fact that the schools in the east are intentionally given much lower class sizes in the early grades (e.g. my child's 1st grade class had 16 kids, vs. 26 or higher in the schools on the west side). Not to mention the fact that going to school with only rich white kids isn't much of a preparation for living in the 21st century.

[Anonymous]

The article doesn't look at opportunities. Teachers at downcounty schools are on the same pay scale as upcounty schools, and presumably are just as bad/good.

Generally, educational outcomes are highly influenced by the child's socioeconomic background, so perhaps that explains the disparity in outcomes? They should correlate the two and then look at those results.

[Anonymous]

More -- about the Downcounty Consortium and the Northeast Consortium.

http://greatergreatereducation.org/post/19286/montgomerys-experiment-with-school-choice-really-isnt/

[Anonymous]

This is sad. Instead of lumping socio-economically similiarly situated schools together to form consortia, why not make school-choice county-wide? Obviously there would be push-back from parents in the desirable (high property value) areas. Conversely, I wonder if as people like myself who are educated but just starting out, who buy in less affluent areas because we can't afford Bethesda, Chevy Chase or the like, will cause the demographics of schools in the down-county and northeast to change, or if the majority of such people will just opt to go private or move to a different area as their kids get older? I'm all for diversity, socio-economic as well as racial, but I know that my local elementary school completely lacks both since it is heavily low-income and Hispanic, which doesn't entirely match the neighborhood demographics (and therefore leads me to believe that lots of families currently go private). I don't see why people living in wealthy areas wouldn't value diversity in their kids' schools the same way that I value it in my kids' school, however achieved. I know people hate busing, but I was bused for certain grades as a kid, from a majority white, relatively affluent suburb to the inner city, and I don't recall an outcry by the suburban parents, or parents pulling their kids from the school. Most people did it, it wasn't a big deal, you still went to school with kids from your neighborhood, and you met kids you probably wouldn't have met otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I would value more diversity and we're lucky to be in great cluster that is internationally diverse. It hasn't been brought here but IMO busing or school-wide choice is bad solution to the problem.

One of the compelling aspects of public school is community. We switched from private and the fact that the kids go to school with neighbors makes a big difference. They see each other at activities in the area and it requires less planning to car pool and just have people over. The school fun events are more widely attended because everyone is close by. These things do make a difference for kids and is an experience I would like them to continue to have.

I also don't think its good from a safety standpoint to have young children commuting 30+ minutes to an hour each way to another school.

[Anonymous]

One thing he mentioned is kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds benefit academically from a school population that is diverse economically. He said he will address that in later columns. I am interested in what impact that has on kids. I was on the lower $ spectrum and went to a much more economically diverse school. I was able to take AP and honors courses with kids from much wealthier families. I still didn't do as well as they did, but it at least gave me a group of kids who cared about educational achievement. And it was a competitive atmosphere that made me strive even harder.

But what benefit is a diverse school to the wealthy? How did my presence benefit the rich kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I would value more diversity and we're lucky to be in great cluster that is internationally diverse. It hasn't been brought here but IMO busing or school-wide choice is bad solution to the problem.

One of the compelling aspects of public school is community. We switched from private and the fact that the kids go to school with neighbors makes a big difference. They see each other at activities in the area and it requires less planning to car pool and just have people over. The school fun events are more widely attended because everyone is close by. These things do make a difference for kids and is an experience I would like them to continue to have.

I also don't think its good from a safety standpoint to have young children commuting 30+ minutes to an hour each way to another school.

Agree with this. We are in a W school and if it was a county wide school, and kids in our neighborhood went to schools all over, then we would probably go back to private school. I suspect the same would be true of others. Then MCPS becomes more like DCPS.

[Anonymous]

This is sad. Instead of lumping socio-economically similiarly situated schools together to form consortia, why not make school-choice county-wide? Obviously there would be push-back from parents in the desirable (high property value) areas. Conversely, I wonder if as people like myself who are educated but just starting out, who buy in less affluent areas because we can't afford Bethesda, Chevy Chase or the like, will cause the demographics of schools in the down-county and northeast to change, or if the majority of such people will just opt to go private or move to a different area as their kids get older? I'm all for diversity, socio-economic as well as racial, but I know that my local elementary school completely lacks both since it is heavily low-income and Hispanic, which doesn't entirely match the neighborhood demographics (and therefore leads me to believe that lots of families currently go private). I don't see why people living in wealthy areas wouldn't value diversity in their kids' schools the same way that I value it in my kids' school, however achieved. I know people hate busing, but I was bused for certain grades as a kid, from a majority white, relatively affluent suburb to the inner city, and I don't recall an outcry by the suburban parents, or parents pulling their kids from the school. Most people did it, it wasn't a big deal, you still went to school with kids from your neighborhood, and you met kids you probably wouldn't have met otherwise.

I am hopeful that in down-county and northeast, change is coming. I don't think there are enough private schools to absorb all children that have moved in who might have the means to attend private school.

[Anonymous]

One thing he mentioned is kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds benefit academically from a school population that is diverse economically. He said he will address that in later columns. I am interested in what impact that has on kids. I was on the lower $ spectrum and went to a much more economically diverse school. I was able to take AP and honors courses with kids from much wealthier families. I still didn't do as well as they did, but it at least gave me a group of kids who cared about educational achievement. And it was a competitive atmosphere that made me strive even harder.

But what benefit is a diverse school to the wealthy? How did my presence benefit the rich kids?

I think there is a definite benefit (although I'm not sure it's "academic") to having an economically diverse school population. I attended a private school in the NY metro area that prided itself on its "diversity." But really, it was not so diverse. I think very similar to a lot of elite colleges/universities, there was a very large, very affluent (not just moderately affluent) white population, and then there were the kids on scholarship - and nearly all of the kids of color were on scholarship and mostly from poor/working poor families (not middle class). I am white, but financially it was a huge stretch for my parents to send me to this school. I really felt out of place. I did not fit in with the majority of kids, for whom money was not an issue for anything, ever. It did not enter into their thinking when it came time to apply to college. It did not enter into thinking on summer plans, vacation plans, wardrobe, etc. etc., etc. I didn't see having some scholarship kids attending the school really change that thinking.

I think that when there is true diversity (not just tokens, or a population of just the top and bottom ends of the economic spectrum with no one in the middle) that breeds greater sensitivity/understanding and helps to form a cohesive feeling of community and not us/them mentality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I would value more diversity and we're lucky to be in great cluster that is internationally diverse. It hasn't been brought here but IMO busing or school-wide choice is bad solution to the problem.

One of the compelling aspects of public school is community. We switched from private and the fact that the kids go to school with neighbors makes a big difference. They see each other at activities in the area and it requires less planning to car pool and just have people over. The school fun events are more widely attended because everyone is close by. These things do make a difference for kids and is an experience I would like them to continue to have.

I also don't think its good from a safety standpoint to have young children commuting 30+ minutes to an hour each way to another school.

Agree with this. We are in a W school and if it was a county wide school, and kids in our neighborhood went to schools all over, then we would probably go back to private school. I suspect the same would be true of others. Then MCPS becomes more like DCPS.

Oh the horror. I am a W school graduate who sends her DCs to DCPS. W schools are completely overrated. Their test scores are nothing more than a reflection of SES. If your child went to school with a more socio-economically diverse group of students he/she would do just as well. I guarantee it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
But what benefit is a diverse school to the wealthy? How did my presence benefit the rich kids?

Rich kids who went to school with non-rich kids, in my belief (but I don't have data for this), are less likely to assume that:

1. Everybody (or at least everybody who matters) has all the advantages they have;
2. They are not actually rich, because there are people who are richer than they are;
3. Rich people are rich because they are more hard-working and intelligent than non-rich people;
4. Poor people are smelly, lazy, and distasteful.

People who do not assume these things are better human beings than people who do assume these things. And if being a better human being isn't a benefit, what is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But what benefit is a diverse school to the wealthy? How did my presence benefit the rich kids?

Rich kids who went to school with non-rich kids, in my belief (but I don't have data for this), are less likely to assume that:

1. Everybody (or at least everybody who matters) has all the advantages they have;
2. They are not actually rich, because there are people who are richer than they are;
3. Rich people are rich because they are more hard-working and intelligent than non-rich people;
4. Poor people are smelly, lazy, and distasteful.

People who do not assume these things are better human beings than people who do assume these things. And if being a better human being isn't a benefit, what is?

I like you lots.

It's crazy how many times I see evidence of #2 thinking on this very message board.

[Anonymous]

I currently live in Rockville, but am relatively new to the area. I've definately noticed the segregation in MCPS. Does anyone know if there is something similar happening in VA? Or are the counties there more equal (racially and economically)? Just curious...