These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
APS should just have language offerings in all schools, not just for Immersion group only.
Anyways, for things oughta have, a 4th high school, elementary schools that don’t lose power and HVAC, phonics… those are the systems real priorities.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Anonymous wrote:Exactly how many students need to be moved out of Gunston? More than 300? If you take the 300 in immersion and move them to WMS and then move kids into Hamm with boundaries is that not fixing the issue of too few kids at WMS and Hamm and too many at Gunston? You act as if the only ways to move students are the two maps/scenarios they put out to bolster their foregone decision. It’s not. Immersion out of Gunston to WMS, shift TJ/Swanson PUs to Hamm and I think we’re there. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a possibility and should be looked at in terms of how many buses it requires and how many neighborhood students would be moved/realigned. That hasn’t happened, and “because it’s bad for
Immersion” doesn’t cut it.
If a significant number of immersion students zoned for Gunston, Kenmore and TJ don't agree to move to WMS (highly likely), then you haven't moved 300 students. You are back in the same pickle with needing to move neighborhood boundaries to move more students north. You've harmed the program without accomplishing your objective of protecting a few Taylor students from being rezoned.
Why would Kenmore and TJ students refuse WMS, its about the same distance and in fact Kenmore to WMS is shorter than Kenmore to Gunston.
I have no idea how many immersion students originate from Gunston, that is not show in transfer report I saw.
Perhaps read the thread? Goodness. This has been well discussed.
The thread says WMS is too far north, yet WMS is CLOSER to Kenmore than the current Gunston commute. So there is no reason
I guess I am not sure why that matters? The program is moving from gunston to kennore or WMS? Gunston is closer to kenmore than it is to WMS. Gunston is also closer to TJ than WMS is to TJ. The bulk of immersion kids come from gunston, TJ and Kenmore. I think I read the vast majority are from gunston (but don't have that data).
Don’t lie. Kenmore is closer to WMS than Gunston, I just mapped it. TJ is closer to Gunston, but the route to WMS is on the faster north section of George Mason rather than Wash Blvd with way more traffic.
I am not lying. I never said kenmore was not closer. I said what the heck does that have to do with anything? Immersion families aren't 100% from Kenmore as I was attempting to point out when you ignored everything I said?
I didn't even mention Kenmore's distance to WMS.
Same poster here. I get it. You are talking about the hispanic families at kenmore and how it's better for them? Sure. What about the families that are zoned gunston and TJ? The idea behind moving to Kenmore is that it's in the middle for EVERYONE.
You're assuming immersion students are evenly distributed across the county. I'd like to see data on that because that assumption does not match where the families I know live.
I am assuming students that are in immersion are largely zoned or gunston, tj and Kenmore currently. Actually I am not assuming. I am basing it on the 2022-2023 aps transfer data! Gunston received 54 students from Hamm, 152 from TJ, 106 from Kenmore, 30 from Swanson, and 16 from WMS. Granted some of those are Montessori and it doesn't list students zoned for Gunston since they aren't transfers. But it's not hard to see the majority of MS immersion students are zoned for TJ, Kenmore and Gunston.
This is very strong rationale for moving immersion to Kenmore, since the bulk of students are from Kenmore and TJ. Kenmore's boundary goes a bit north of 50, more so than TJ's (?) And there are students from Swanson, which is north of Kenmore but seems closer than Hamm is to TJ (again, ?) But with the remaining 16 from Williamsburg, the scale tips to Kenmore for best location. It is interesting how few immersion students actually come from Gunston, since Claremont isn't that far away.
Would like to know how many of those WMS and Hamm students in particular are Montessori rather than immersion. I thought there were only about 300 total immersion students; and these numbers add up to over 250 without counting Gunston-zoned students. Still, more students closer to Gunston than to Williamsburg.
I understand the "space available" argument for moving immersion to WHS; but the strongest case for Kenmore is right here in these numbers.
1. Better serves the program
2. More centrally located for all participants
3. requires boundary shifts that ultimately would help fill Williamsburg and help keep it filled consistently, not relying on the gamble that enough immersion students would continue. Of course, maybe the winds would shift and more Key students would continue through MS instead of Claremont students; but then that puts the high school program at Wakefield in a more questionable future. I really doubt that many north Arlington students are going to send their kids to Wakefield. After all, that's why they're all living in north Arlington, right? And if the south Arlington families don't continue on at Williamsburg, they aren't going to jump back in in high school. Still, I guess APS could let the program become a north Arlington thing and move high school to YHS. If all those SA families are willing to keep going up to WMS and YHS for 7 years, maybe some demographic shifts will improve the diversity at YHS and WHS. My bet is on immersion at Kenmore/WHS.
So I don't have numbers from this year. BUT last year there were 253 immersion students and 44 Montessori students who weren't zoned for Gunston. If you include the Gunston zoned kids the Immersion number is 310 and Montessori is 70. I am also surprised it's not more Gunston kids, but the current population distribution is kind of off because some of this current set of kids had guaranteed admission based on their neighborhood. I know that at least one of the neighborhoods that used to have guaranteed admission was zoned for TJ (the Claremont neighborhood). Drew also had guaranteed admission and were zoned for Gunston but is a small population base compared to some other schools AND also had a lot of kids going into Montessori. So, in another couple years that population draw might seem a bit different.
But yes, there are many reasons to send the program to Kenmore. As I said my kid is in immersion. Ideally, I would prefer it stay there because we love it there. But Kenmore does make sense for the strength of the program. Which despite what many folks on here want to hear, should be a consideration.
If most immersion students come from Kenmore, and only 50 kids come from Gunston, WMS makes a lot of sense since it’s closer to Kenmore than Gunston is to Kenmore. And it has capacity.
1) The decision is NOT Gunston vs. WMS. The decision is KENMORE vs. WMS. Do you know what is closer to Kenmore? KENMORE.
2) The most kids do not come from Kenmore. They come from TJ zones.
But i am done with this. You are clearly just trying to be annoying.
1) The decision is where can immersion go with best outcome for immersion and neighborhood students. It could stay at Gunston and they just redraw boundaries, it could go to TJ if they get over IB Immersion overlap, etc. if Gunston was fine for years, then WMS is even closer.
2) reports I see more transfers from Kenmore, but maybe the latest numbers they swap? But TJ to WMS is equivalent to Kenmore to Gunston, so it really is a wash.
Logistically, WMS, Kenmore, Gunston, all work. It comes down to capacity utilization and impact on busing and boundaries. WMS should be investigated closely, as it will likely yield the fewest busing needs through the system, full stop.
WMS does not work because it does not feed to Gunston. Immersion isn't a stand alone program so kids make friends with others at their MS. It makes zero sense to have Immersion students be the only ones to go WMS--> Gunston. It's a non-starter.
Cue the posters saying that APS shouldn't consider the welfare of Immersion students because they "chose" the program and therefore deserve to be shat upon.
Not Gunston, Wakefield. My mistake.
but immersion in HS isn't wed to Wakefield. Isn't WHS the move overcrowded high school? So it would make sense to move Immersion to say W-L.
WL already has IB.
Wakefield has Capstone and Immersion. The SB has latitude to move where it wants, the Immersion IB conflict at TJ is a smokescreen they invented.
Capstone isn't a 'program.' Capstone is more of an elective than a program (AP Seminar and AP Research and students selecting and passing the exams for the same other AP classes everyone offers). YHS has it now (or will next year) too. WL could have it quite easily if they want.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Well if that is the argument then we should abolish sports or specials or electives or AP OR IB because APS just needs to focus on the basics and catch up.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Well if that is the argument then we should abolish sports or specials or electives or AP OR IB because APS just needs to focus on the basics and catch up.
Sounds good to me. Then we would at least have kids who are able to read and write.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Dual language immersion programs (like what APS does) actually help close achievement gaps. I didn't know this until I started learning about the APS program so I won't try to explain it, but you'll find plenty of info if you google something like "immersion language achievement gap."
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Dual language immersion programs (like what APS does) actually help close achievement gaps. I didn't know this until I started learning about the APS program so I won't try to explain it, but you'll find plenty of info if you google something like "immersion language achievement gap."
It closes the achievement gap because the English speaking students have lower math and science scores because they are learning in a foreign language. Outcomes for both cohorts are below strong neighborhood schools. This is just the same equity nonsense that haunts APS.
Anonymous wrote:Exactly how many students need to be moved out of Gunston? More than 300? If you take the 300 in immersion and move them to WMS and then move kids into Hamm with boundaries is that not fixing the issue of too few kids at WMS and Hamm and too many at Gunston? You act as if the only ways to move students are the two maps/scenarios they put out to bolster their foregone decision. It’s not. Immersion out of Gunston to WMS, shift TJ/Swanson PUs to Hamm and I think we’re there. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a possibility and should be looked at in terms of how many buses it requires and how many neighborhood students would be moved/realigned. That hasn’t happened, and “because it’s bad for
Immersion” doesn’t cut it.
If a significant number of immersion students zoned for Gunston, Kenmore and TJ don't agree to move to WMS (highly likely), then you haven't moved 300 students. You are back in the same pickle with needing to move neighborhood boundaries to move more students north. You've harmed the program without accomplishing your objective of protecting a few Taylor students from being rezoned.
Why would Kenmore and TJ students refuse WMS, its about the same distance and in fact Kenmore to WMS is shorter than Kenmore to Gunston.
I have no idea how many immersion students originate from Gunston, that is not show in transfer report I saw.
Perhaps read the thread? Goodness. This has been well discussed.
The thread says WMS is too far north, yet WMS is CLOSER to Kenmore than the current Gunston commute. So there is no reason
I guess I am not sure why that matters? The program is moving from gunston to kennore or WMS? Gunston is closer to kenmore than it is to WMS. Gunston is also closer to TJ than WMS is to TJ. The bulk of immersion kids come from gunston, TJ and Kenmore. I think I read the vast majority are from gunston (but don't have that data).
Don’t lie. Kenmore is closer to WMS than Gunston, I just mapped it. TJ is closer to Gunston, but the route to WMS is on the faster north section of George Mason rather than Wash Blvd with way more traffic.
I am not lying. I never said kenmore was not closer. I said what the heck does that have to do with anything? Immersion families aren't 100% from Kenmore as I was attempting to point out when you ignored everything I said?
I didn't even mention Kenmore's distance to WMS.
Same poster here. I get it. You are talking about the hispanic families at kenmore and how it's better for them? Sure. What about the families that are zoned gunston and TJ? The idea behind moving to Kenmore is that it's in the middle for EVERYONE.
You're assuming immersion students are evenly distributed across the county. I'd like to see data on that because that assumption does not match where the families I know live.
I am assuming students that are in immersion are largely zoned or gunston, tj and Kenmore currently. Actually I am not assuming. I am basing it on the 2022-2023 aps transfer data! Gunston received 54 students from Hamm, 152 from TJ, 106 from Kenmore, 30 from Swanson, and 16 from WMS. Granted some of those are Montessori and it doesn't list students zoned for Gunston since they aren't transfers. But it's not hard to see the majority of MS immersion students are zoned for TJ, Kenmore and Gunston.
This is very strong rationale for moving immersion to Kenmore, since the bulk of students are from Kenmore and TJ. Kenmore's boundary goes a bit north of 50, more so than TJ's (?) And there are students from Swanson, which is north of Kenmore but seems closer than Hamm is to TJ (again, ?) But with the remaining 16 from Williamsburg, the scale tips to Kenmore for best location. It is interesting how few immersion students actually come from Gunston, since Claremont isn't that far away.
Would like to know how many of those WMS and Hamm students in particular are Montessori rather than immersion. I thought there were only about 300 total immersion students; and these numbers add up to over 250 without counting Gunston-zoned students. Still, more students closer to Gunston than to Williamsburg.
I understand the "space available" argument for moving immersion to WHS; but the strongest case for Kenmore is right here in these numbers.
1. Better serves the program
2. More centrally located for all participants
3. requires boundary shifts that ultimately would help fill Williamsburg and help keep it filled consistently, not relying on the gamble that enough immersion students would continue. Of course, maybe the winds would shift and more Key students would continue through MS instead of Claremont students; but then that puts the high school program at Wakefield in a more questionable future. I really doubt that many north Arlington students are going to send their kids to Wakefield. After all, that's why they're all living in north Arlington, right? And if the south Arlington families don't continue on at Williamsburg, they aren't going to jump back in in high school. Still, I guess APS could let the program become a north Arlington thing and move high school to YHS. If all those SA families are willing to keep going up to WMS and YHS for 7 years, maybe some demographic shifts will improve the diversity at YHS and WHS. My bet is on immersion at Kenmore/WHS.
So I don't have numbers from this year. BUT last year there were 253 immersion students and 44 Montessori students who weren't zoned for Gunston. If you include the Gunston zoned kids the Immersion number is 310 and Montessori is 70. I am also surprised it's not more Gunston kids, but the current population distribution is kind of off because some of this current set of kids had guaranteed admission based on their neighborhood. I know that at least one of the neighborhoods that used to have guaranteed admission was zoned for TJ (the Claremont neighborhood). Drew also had guaranteed admission and were zoned for Gunston but is a small population base compared to some other schools AND also had a lot of kids going into Montessori. So, in another couple years that population draw might seem a bit different.
But yes, there are many reasons to send the program to Kenmore. As I said my kid is in immersion. Ideally, I would prefer it stay there because we love it there. But Kenmore does make sense for the strength of the program. Which despite what many folks on here want to hear, should be a consideration.
If most immersion students come from Kenmore, and only 50 kids come from Gunston, WMS makes a lot of sense since it’s closer to Kenmore than Gunston is to Kenmore. And it has capacity.
1) The decision is NOT Gunston vs. WMS. The decision is KENMORE vs. WMS. Do you know what is closer to Kenmore? KENMORE.
2) The most kids do not come from Kenmore. They come from TJ zones.
But i am done with this. You are clearly just trying to be annoying.
1) The decision is where can immersion go with best outcome for immersion and neighborhood students. It could stay at Gunston and they just redraw boundaries, it could go to TJ if they get over IB Immersion overlap, etc. if Gunston was fine for years, then WMS is even closer.
2) reports I see more transfers from Kenmore, but maybe the latest numbers they swap? But TJ to WMS is equivalent to Kenmore to Gunston, so it really is a wash.
Logistically, WMS, Kenmore, Gunston, all work. It comes down to capacity utilization and impact on busing and boundaries. WMS should be investigated closely, as it will likely yield the fewest busing needs through the system, full stop.
WMS does not work because it does not feed to Gunston. Immersion isn't a stand alone program so kids make friends with others at their MS. It makes zero sense to have Immersion students be the only ones to go WMS--> Gunston. It's a non-starter.
Cue the posters saying that APS shouldn't consider the welfare of Immersion students because they "chose" the program and therefore deserve to be shat upon.
Not Gunston, Wakefield. My mistake.
but immersion in HS isn't wed to Wakefield. Isn't WHS the move overcrowded high school? So it would make sense to move Immersion to say W-L.
WL already has IB.
Yes so what? It also has the largest building now that it has the new addition so why can't it take Immersion too? Bonus it's the most centrally located HS.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Well if that is the argument then we should abolish sports or specials or electives or AP OR IB because APS just needs to focus on the basics and catch up.
Sounds good to me. Then we would at least have kids who are able to read and write.
Anonymous wrote:Exactly how many students need to be moved out of Gunston? More than 300? If you take the 300 in immersion and move them to WMS and then move kids into Hamm with boundaries is that not fixing the issue of too few kids at WMS and Hamm and too many at Gunston? You act as if the only ways to move students are the two maps/scenarios they put out to bolster their foregone decision. It’s not. Immersion out of Gunston to WMS, shift TJ/Swanson PUs to Hamm and I think we’re there. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a possibility and should be looked at in terms of how many buses it requires and how many neighborhood students would be moved/realigned. That hasn’t happened, and “because it’s bad for
Immersion” doesn’t cut it.
If a significant number of immersion students zoned for Gunston, Kenmore and TJ don't agree to move to WMS (highly likely), then you haven't moved 300 students. You are back in the same pickle with needing to move neighborhood boundaries to move more students north. You've harmed the program without accomplishing your objective of protecting a few Taylor students from being rezoned.
Why would Kenmore and TJ students refuse WMS, its about the same distance and in fact Kenmore to WMS is shorter than Kenmore to Gunston.
I have no idea how many immersion students originate from Gunston, that is not show in transfer report I saw.
Perhaps read the thread? Goodness. This has been well discussed.
The thread says WMS is too far north, yet WMS is CLOSER to Kenmore than the current Gunston commute. So there is no reason
I guess I am not sure why that matters? The program is moving from gunston to kennore or WMS? Gunston is closer to kenmore than it is to WMS. Gunston is also closer to TJ than WMS is to TJ. The bulk of immersion kids come from gunston, TJ and Kenmore. I think I read the vast majority are from gunston (but don't have that data).
Don’t lie. Kenmore is closer to WMS than Gunston, I just mapped it. TJ is closer to Gunston, but the route to WMS is on the faster north section of George Mason rather than Wash Blvd with way more traffic.
I am not lying. I never said kenmore was not closer. I said what the heck does that have to do with anything? Immersion families aren't 100% from Kenmore as I was attempting to point out when you ignored everything I said?
I didn't even mention Kenmore's distance to WMS.
Same poster here. I get it. You are talking about the hispanic families at kenmore and how it's better for them? Sure. What about the families that are zoned gunston and TJ? The idea behind moving to Kenmore is that it's in the middle for EVERYONE.
You're assuming immersion students are evenly distributed across the county. I'd like to see data on that because that assumption does not match where the families I know live.
I am assuming students that are in immersion are largely zoned or gunston, tj and Kenmore currently. Actually I am not assuming. I am basing it on the 2022-2023 aps transfer data! Gunston received 54 students from Hamm, 152 from TJ, 106 from Kenmore, 30 from Swanson, and 16 from WMS. Granted some of those are Montessori and it doesn't list students zoned for Gunston since they aren't transfers. But it's not hard to see the majority of MS immersion students are zoned for TJ, Kenmore and Gunston.
This is very strong rationale for moving immersion to Kenmore, since the bulk of students are from Kenmore and TJ. Kenmore's boundary goes a bit north of 50, more so than TJ's (?) And there are students from Swanson, which is north of Kenmore but seems closer than Hamm is to TJ (again, ?) But with the remaining 16 from Williamsburg, the scale tips to Kenmore for best location. It is interesting how few immersion students actually come from Gunston, since Claremont isn't that far away.
Would like to know how many of those WMS and Hamm students in particular are Montessori rather than immersion. I thought there were only about 300 total immersion students; and these numbers add up to over 250 without counting Gunston-zoned students. Still, more students closer to Gunston than to Williamsburg.
I understand the "space available" argument for moving immersion to WHS; but the strongest case for Kenmore is right here in these numbers.
1. Better serves the program
2. More centrally located for all participants
3. requires boundary shifts that ultimately would help fill Williamsburg and help keep it filled consistently, not relying on the gamble that enough immersion students would continue. Of course, maybe the winds would shift and more Key students would continue through MS instead of Claremont students; but then that puts the high school program at Wakefield in a more questionable future. I really doubt that many north Arlington students are going to send their kids to Wakefield. After all, that's why they're all living in north Arlington, right? And if the south Arlington families don't continue on at Williamsburg, they aren't going to jump back in in high school. Still, I guess APS could let the program become a north Arlington thing and move high school to YHS. If all those SA families are willing to keep going up to WMS and YHS for 7 years, maybe some demographic shifts will improve the diversity at YHS and WHS. My bet is on immersion at Kenmore/WHS.
So I don't have numbers from this year. BUT last year there were 253 immersion students and 44 Montessori students who weren't zoned for Gunston. If you include the Gunston zoned kids the Immersion number is 310 and Montessori is 70. I am also surprised it's not more Gunston kids, but the current population distribution is kind of off because some of this current set of kids had guaranteed admission based on their neighborhood. I know that at least one of the neighborhoods that used to have guaranteed admission was zoned for TJ (the Claremont neighborhood). Drew also had guaranteed admission and were zoned for Gunston but is a small population base compared to some other schools AND also had a lot of kids going into Montessori. So, in another couple years that population draw might seem a bit different.
But yes, there are many reasons to send the program to Kenmore. As I said my kid is in immersion. Ideally, I would prefer it stay there because we love it there. But Kenmore does make sense for the strength of the program. Which despite what many folks on here want to hear, should be a consideration.
If most immersion students come from Kenmore, and only 50 kids come from Gunston, WMS makes a lot of sense since it’s closer to Kenmore than Gunston is to Kenmore. And it has capacity.
1) The decision is NOT Gunston vs. WMS. The decision is KENMORE vs. WMS. Do you know what is closer to Kenmore? KENMORE.
2) The most kids do not come from Kenmore. They come from TJ zones.
But i am done with this. You are clearly just trying to be annoying.
1) The decision is where can immersion go with best outcome for immersion and neighborhood students. It could stay at Gunston and they just redraw boundaries, it could go to TJ if they get over IB Immersion overlap, etc. if Gunston was fine for years, then WMS is even closer.
2) reports I see more transfers from Kenmore, but maybe the latest numbers they swap? But TJ to WMS is equivalent to Kenmore to Gunston, so it really is a wash.
Logistically, WMS, Kenmore, Gunston, all work. It comes down to capacity utilization and impact on busing and boundaries. WMS should be investigated closely, as it will likely yield the fewest busing needs through the system, full stop.
WMS does not work because it does not feed to Gunston. Immersion isn't a stand alone program so kids make friends with others at their MS. It makes zero sense to have Immersion students be the only ones to go WMS--> Gunston. It's a non-starter.
Cue the posters saying that APS shouldn't consider the welfare of Immersion students because they "chose" the program and therefore deserve to be shat upon.
Not Gunston, Wakefield. My mistake.
but immersion in HS isn't wed to Wakefield. Isn't WHS the move overcrowded high school? So it would make sense to move Immersion to say W-L.
WL already has IB.
Wakefield has Capstone and Immersion. The SB has latitude to move where it wants, the Immersion IB conflict at TJ is a smokescreen they invented.
Capstone isn't a 'program.' Capstone is more of an elective than a program (AP Seminar and AP Research and students selecting and passing the exams for the same other AP classes everyone offers). YHS has it now (or will next year) too. WL could have it quite easily if they want.
ok but what's your point? we're talking about moving Immersion to another HS or MS. None of this means Immersion could not go to WL. Solves the overcrowding problem at WHS maybe without adjusting boundaries. I like this idea more and more.
Anonymous wrote:Exactly how many students need to be moved out of Gunston? More than 300? If you take the 300 in immersion and move them to WMS and then move kids into Hamm with boundaries is that not fixing the issue of too few kids at WMS and Hamm and too many at Gunston? You act as if the only ways to move students are the two maps/scenarios they put out to bolster their foregone decision. It’s not. Immersion out of Gunston to WMS, shift TJ/Swanson PUs to Hamm and I think we’re there. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a possibility and should be looked at in terms of how many buses it requires and how many neighborhood students would be moved/realigned. That hasn’t happened, and “because it’s bad for
Immersion” doesn’t cut it.
If a significant number of immersion students zoned for Gunston, Kenmore and TJ don't agree to move to WMS (highly likely), then you haven't moved 300 students. You are back in the same pickle with needing to move neighborhood boundaries to move more students north. You've harmed the program without accomplishing your objective of protecting a few Taylor students from being rezoned.
Why would Kenmore and TJ students refuse WMS, its about the same distance and in fact Kenmore to WMS is shorter than Kenmore to Gunston.
I have no idea how many immersion students originate from Gunston, that is not show in transfer report I saw.
Perhaps read the thread? Goodness. This has been well discussed.
The thread says WMS is too far north, yet WMS is CLOSER to Kenmore than the current Gunston commute. So there is no reason
I guess I am not sure why that matters? The program is moving from gunston to kennore or WMS? Gunston is closer to kenmore than it is to WMS. Gunston is also closer to TJ than WMS is to TJ. The bulk of immersion kids come from gunston, TJ and Kenmore. I think I read the vast majority are from gunston (but don't have that data).
Don’t lie. Kenmore is closer to WMS than Gunston, I just mapped it. TJ is closer to Gunston, but the route to WMS is on the faster north section of George Mason rather than Wash Blvd with way more traffic.
I am not lying. I never said kenmore was not closer. I said what the heck does that have to do with anything? Immersion families aren't 100% from Kenmore as I was attempting to point out when you ignored everything I said?
I didn't even mention Kenmore's distance to WMS.
Same poster here. I get it. You are talking about the hispanic families at kenmore and how it's better for them? Sure. What about the families that are zoned gunston and TJ? The idea behind moving to Kenmore is that it's in the middle for EVERYONE.
You're assuming immersion students are evenly distributed across the county. I'd like to see data on that because that assumption does not match where the families I know live.
I am assuming students that are in immersion are largely zoned or gunston, tj and Kenmore currently. Actually I am not assuming. I am basing it on the 2022-2023 aps transfer data! Gunston received 54 students from Hamm, 152 from TJ, 106 from Kenmore, 30 from Swanson, and 16 from WMS. Granted some of those are Montessori and it doesn't list students zoned for Gunston since they aren't transfers. But it's not hard to see the majority of MS immersion students are zoned for TJ, Kenmore and Gunston.
This is very strong rationale for moving immersion to Kenmore, since the bulk of students are from Kenmore and TJ. Kenmore's boundary goes a bit north of 50, more so than TJ's (?) And there are students from Swanson, which is north of Kenmore but seems closer than Hamm is to TJ (again, ?) But with the remaining 16 from Williamsburg, the scale tips to Kenmore for best location. It is interesting how few immersion students actually come from Gunston, since Claremont isn't that far away.
Would like to know how many of those WMS and Hamm students in particular are Montessori rather than immersion. I thought there were only about 300 total immersion students; and these numbers add up to over 250 without counting Gunston-zoned students. Still, more students closer to Gunston than to Williamsburg.
I understand the "space available" argument for moving immersion to WHS; but the strongest case for Kenmore is right here in these numbers.
1. Better serves the program
2. More centrally located for all participants
3. requires boundary shifts that ultimately would help fill Williamsburg and help keep it filled consistently, not relying on the gamble that enough immersion students would continue. Of course, maybe the winds would shift and more Key students would continue through MS instead of Claremont students; but then that puts the high school program at Wakefield in a more questionable future. I really doubt that many north Arlington students are going to send their kids to Wakefield. After all, that's why they're all living in north Arlington, right? And if the south Arlington families don't continue on at Williamsburg, they aren't going to jump back in in high school. Still, I guess APS could let the program become a north Arlington thing and move high school to YHS. If all those SA families are willing to keep going up to WMS and YHS for 7 years, maybe some demographic shifts will improve the diversity at YHS and WHS. My bet is on immersion at Kenmore/WHS.
So I don't have numbers from this year. BUT last year there were 253 immersion students and 44 Montessori students who weren't zoned for Gunston. If you include the Gunston zoned kids the Immersion number is 310 and Montessori is 70. I am also surprised it's not more Gunston kids, but the current population distribution is kind of off because some of this current set of kids had guaranteed admission based on their neighborhood. I know that at least one of the neighborhoods that used to have guaranteed admission was zoned for TJ (the Claremont neighborhood). Drew also had guaranteed admission and were zoned for Gunston but is a small population base compared to some other schools AND also had a lot of kids going into Montessori. So, in another couple years that population draw might seem a bit different.
But yes, there are many reasons to send the program to Kenmore. As I said my kid is in immersion. Ideally, I would prefer it stay there because we love it there. But Kenmore does make sense for the strength of the program. Which despite what many folks on here want to hear, should be a consideration.
If most immersion students come from Kenmore, and only 50 kids come from Gunston, WMS makes a lot of sense since it’s closer to Kenmore than Gunston is to Kenmore. And it has capacity.
1) The decision is NOT Gunston vs. WMS. The decision is KENMORE vs. WMS. Do you know what is closer to Kenmore? KENMORE.
2) The most kids do not come from Kenmore. They come from TJ zones.
But i am done with this. You are clearly just trying to be annoying.
1) The decision is where can immersion go with best outcome for immersion and neighborhood students. It could stay at Gunston and they just redraw boundaries, it could go to TJ if they get over IB Immersion overlap, etc. if Gunston was fine for years, then WMS is even closer.
2) reports I see more transfers from Kenmore, but maybe the latest numbers they swap? But TJ to WMS is equivalent to Kenmore to Gunston, so it really is a wash.
Logistically, WMS, Kenmore, Gunston, all work. It comes down to capacity utilization and impact on busing and boundaries. WMS should be investigated closely, as it will likely yield the fewest busing needs through the system, full stop.
WMS does not work because it does not feed to Gunston. Immersion isn't a stand alone program so kids make friends with others at their MS. It makes zero sense to have Immersion students be the only ones to go WMS--> Gunston. It's a non-starter.
Cue the posters saying that APS shouldn't consider the welfare of Immersion students because they "chose" the program and therefore deserve to be shat upon.
Other option schools entail leaving your middle school cohort and striking out at a new high school. Arlington Tech, IB at WL or YT or WK students, HBW students entering at 9th grade. Immersion would simply be another choice people make that requires a different high school path, only with the added benefit that about 100 students from your middle school (your immersion cohort you have known since kindergarten) will travel with you to Wakefield.
Meanwhile, you basically dance with glee at the neighborhood boundary shifts which break up a dozen elementary schools feeding into their neighborhood middle school into two or three middle schools. If neighborhood schools have so little emphasis on alignment, why should an option program rank alignment as a reason they can't move to WMS?
The concern that WMS doesn't align with Wakefield is a non-issue, based upon your own lack of concern for neighborhood alignments.
Those comparisons don't make any sense and are completely apples to oranges.
I am in no way "dancing with glee" and neighborhood boundary shifts. I have a kid in neighborhood school. I also am smart enough to know that this isn't a problem caused by immersion and it isn't the responsibility of immersion to fix it. APS needs to address boundaries because of population growth. It is what it is. Immersion shouldn't be the punching bag of Taylor parents.
So you’re only response to say, apples oranges without actually addressing the facts at hand.
You previously said that immersion could not move to WMS because it did not align with Wakefield and I then showed that it is not unusual for option programs to not align, that in fact, moving immersion to kenmore causes more misalignment throughout the system
And you respond with fruit and punching bag? Thanks for the spiritied debate.
Please stop pretending to be so dense.
In all of your examples students have the option of staying with their neighborhood cohort (i.e., staying with their friends) or entering an option HS program. They get the choice. This is not the same as your proposal. An immersion student at WMS could not attend Yorktown with their WMS classmates through any standard track (unless they are one of the few immersion students zoned for Yorktown). They are tracked for Gunston or their neighborhood high school (which is Gunston for >1/2 of immersion). They wouldn't get a real choice or the option to choose to stay with MS friends.
It's not the same at all and you know that.
They chose immersion multiple times before that, just like HBW would have a different cohort if they returned in high school.
The point is alignment doesn’t matter, your disregard for it proves that, and there is strong precedent that when you sign up for option, you give up alignment. Just like ATS or Claremont which return to a middle school not aligned with their elementary.
So you have to show that Kenmore requires less buses than a WMS immersion site, because buses and drivers and money matter, not alignment, and certainly not alignment for options.
So says you. No one else has to agree.
You’re going to argue this point? I’m not PP, but alignment is not a consideration for option programs or schools. It’s not a thing. Alignment is a boundary consideration. There are thousands more students in neighborhood schools than options. I really don’t think anyone, outside of fellow immersion parents (not even sure about that), is on your side on this point. This is not the hill you want to die on.
There's no point to refute. You state a bunch of poorly formed opinions. I disagree.
These aren’t opinions, are you high? The numbers of students are the numbers. Alignment is one of the six boundary considerations. There is no such consideration outlined for location or co-location of an option school or program.
You're just making crap up at this point.
What am I “making up?” The number of students? Or the policy considerations for neighborhood boundaries, which are spelled out on the APS website? No such considerations exist for option school or program locations.
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Dual language immersion programs (like what APS does) actually help close achievement gaps. I didn't know this until I started learning about the APS program so I won't try to explain it, but you'll find plenty of info if you google something like "immersion language achievement gap."
It closes the achievement gap because the English speaking students have lower math and science scores because they are learning in a foreign language. Outcomes for both cohorts are below strong neighborhood schools. This is just the same equity nonsense that haunts APS.
DP here. Sigh. No, they don’t have lower scores because they are learning in another language. They still score well. What is your personal experience with the immersion program?
Anonymous wrote:These comments are depressing. Most developed countries actually teach multiple languages in schools from very early on. APS offers a popular, successful program (with strong academic outcomes for native Spanish & English speakers)… and you want to get rid of it. We should be expanding it instead.
Not when kids aren’t learning basics they need in math and reading. APS needs to focus on that before they start to add languages in that not everyone wants because we are trying to catch our kids up from the crap job APS has done.
Dual language immersion programs (like what APS does) actually help close achievement gaps. I didn't know this until I started learning about the APS program so I won't try to explain it, but you'll find plenty of info if you google something like "immersion language achievement gap."
It closes the achievement gap because the English speaking students have lower math and science scores because they are learning in a foreign language. Outcomes for both cohorts are below strong neighborhood schools. This is just the same equity nonsense that haunts APS.
This is absolutely false in the long term. Yes, English-speaking students might (and I stress might) have slightly lower math and science scores in early years compared to their counterparts in traditional English-only schools, but over time, they overcome those deficits and generally outperform peers from English-only schools. From my experience, both my native-English speaking kids in Immersion gained reading fluency in English a little later than they otherwise would have -- but they've caught up, and now they can read in both languages.
Students who are native Spanish speakers gain from instruction in their native languages as well - test scores for this cohort prove this to be true.
You are right that a snapshot in the early years of immersion elementary MIGHT show lower test scores than neighborhood school counterparts. But, over time, as these students gain fluency in both languages, their scores increase, bringing them on par with their peers in traditional programs.
Anonymous wrote:Exactly how many students need to be moved out of Gunston? More than 300? If you take the 300 in immersion and move them to WMS and then move kids into Hamm with boundaries is that not fixing the issue of too few kids at WMS and Hamm and too many at Gunston? You act as if the only ways to move students are the two maps/scenarios they put out to bolster their foregone decision. It’s not. Immersion out of Gunston to WMS, shift TJ/Swanson PUs to Hamm and I think we’re there. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a possibility and should be looked at in terms of how many buses it requires and how many neighborhood students would be moved/realigned. That hasn’t happened, and “because it’s bad for
Immersion” doesn’t cut it.
If a significant number of immersion students zoned for Gunston, Kenmore and TJ don't agree to move to WMS (highly likely), then you haven't moved 300 students. You are back in the same pickle with needing to move neighborhood boundaries to move more students north. You've harmed the program without accomplishing your objective of protecting a few Taylor students from being rezoned.
Why would Kenmore and TJ students refuse WMS, its about the same distance and in fact Kenmore to WMS is shorter than Kenmore to Gunston.
I have no idea how many immersion students originate from Gunston, that is not show in transfer report I saw.
Perhaps read the thread? Goodness. This has been well discussed.
The thread says WMS is too far north, yet WMS is CLOSER to Kenmore than the current Gunston commute. So there is no reason
I guess I am not sure why that matters? The program is moving from gunston to kennore or WMS? Gunston is closer to kenmore than it is to WMS. Gunston is also closer to TJ than WMS is to TJ. The bulk of immersion kids come from gunston, TJ and Kenmore. I think I read the vast majority are from gunston (but don't have that data).
Don’t lie. Kenmore is closer to WMS than Gunston, I just mapped it. TJ is closer to Gunston, but the route to WMS is on the faster north section of George Mason rather than Wash Blvd with way more traffic.
I am not lying. I never said kenmore was not closer. I said what the heck does that have to do with anything? Immersion families aren't 100% from Kenmore as I was attempting to point out when you ignored everything I said?
I didn't even mention Kenmore's distance to WMS.
Same poster here. I get it. You are talking about the hispanic families at kenmore and how it's better for them? Sure. What about the families that are zoned gunston and TJ? The idea behind moving to Kenmore is that it's in the middle for EVERYONE.
You're assuming immersion students are evenly distributed across the county. I'd like to see data on that because that assumption does not match where the families I know live.
I am assuming students that are in immersion are largely zoned or gunston, tj and Kenmore currently. Actually I am not assuming. I am basing it on the 2022-2023 aps transfer data! Gunston received 54 students from Hamm, 152 from TJ, 106 from Kenmore, 30 from Swanson, and 16 from WMS. Granted some of those are Montessori and it doesn't list students zoned for Gunston since they aren't transfers. But it's not hard to see the majority of MS immersion students are zoned for TJ, Kenmore and Gunston.
This is very strong rationale for moving immersion to Kenmore, since the bulk of students are from Kenmore and TJ. Kenmore's boundary goes a bit north of 50, more so than TJ's (?) And there are students from Swanson, which is north of Kenmore but seems closer than Hamm is to TJ (again, ?) But with the remaining 16 from Williamsburg, the scale tips to Kenmore for best location. It is interesting how few immersion students actually come from Gunston, since Claremont isn't that far away.
Would like to know how many of those WMS and Hamm students in particular are Montessori rather than immersion. I thought there were only about 300 total immersion students; and these numbers add up to over 250 without counting Gunston-zoned students. Still, more students closer to Gunston than to Williamsburg.
I understand the "space available" argument for moving immersion to WHS; but the strongest case for Kenmore is right here in these numbers.
1. Better serves the program
2. More centrally located for all participants
3. requires boundary shifts that ultimately would help fill Williamsburg and help keep it filled consistently, not relying on the gamble that enough immersion students would continue. Of course, maybe the winds would shift and more Key students would continue through MS instead of Claremont students; but then that puts the high school program at Wakefield in a more questionable future. I really doubt that many north Arlington students are going to send their kids to Wakefield. After all, that's why they're all living in north Arlington, right? And if the south Arlington families don't continue on at Williamsburg, they aren't going to jump back in in high school. Still, I guess APS could let the program become a north Arlington thing and move high school to YHS. If all those SA families are willing to keep going up to WMS and YHS for 7 years, maybe some demographic shifts will improve the diversity at YHS and WHS. My bet is on immersion at Kenmore/WHS.
So I don't have numbers from this year. BUT last year there were 253 immersion students and 44 Montessori students who weren't zoned for Gunston. If you include the Gunston zoned kids the Immersion number is 310 and Montessori is 70. I am also surprised it's not more Gunston kids, but the current population distribution is kind of off because some of this current set of kids had guaranteed admission based on their neighborhood. I know that at least one of the neighborhoods that used to have guaranteed admission was zoned for TJ (the Claremont neighborhood). Drew also had guaranteed admission and were zoned for Gunston but is a small population base compared to some other schools AND also had a lot of kids going into Montessori. So, in another couple years that population draw might seem a bit different.
But yes, there are many reasons to send the program to Kenmore. As I said my kid is in immersion. Ideally, I would prefer it stay there because we love it there. But Kenmore does make sense for the strength of the program. Which despite what many folks on here want to hear, should be a consideration.
If most immersion students come from Kenmore, and only 50 kids come from Gunston, WMS makes a lot of sense since it’s closer to Kenmore than Gunston is to Kenmore. And it has capacity.
1) The decision is NOT Gunston vs. WMS. The decision is KENMORE vs. WMS. Do you know what is closer to Kenmore? KENMORE.
2) The most kids do not come from Kenmore. They come from TJ zones.
But i am done with this. You are clearly just trying to be annoying.
1) The decision is where can immersion go with best outcome for immersion and neighborhood students. It could stay at Gunston and they just redraw boundaries, it could go to TJ if they get over IB Immersion overlap, etc. if Gunston was fine for years, then WMS is even closer.
2) reports I see more transfers from Kenmore, but maybe the latest numbers they swap? But TJ to WMS is equivalent to Kenmore to Gunston, so it really is a wash.
Logistically, WMS, Kenmore, Gunston, all work. It comes down to capacity utilization and impact on busing and boundaries. WMS should be investigated closely, as it will likely yield the fewest busing needs through the system, full stop.
WMS does not work because it does not feed to Gunston. Immersion isn't a stand alone program so kids make friends with others at their MS. It makes zero sense to have Immersion students be the only ones to go WMS--> Gunston. It's a non-starter.
Cue the posters saying that APS shouldn't consider the welfare of Immersion students because they "chose" the program and therefore deserve to be shat upon.
Not Gunston, Wakefield. My mistake.
but immersion in HS isn't wed to Wakefield. Isn't WHS the move overcrowded high school? So it would make sense to move Immersion to say W-L.
WL already has IB.
Wakefield has Capstone and Immersion. The SB has latitude to move where it wants, the Immersion IB conflict at TJ is a smokescreen they invented.
Capstone isn't a 'program.' Capstone is more of an elective than a program (AP Seminar and AP Research and students selecting and passing the exams for the same other AP classes everyone offers). YHS has it now (or will next year) too. WL could have it quite easily if they want.
ok but what's your point? we're talking about moving Immersion to another HS or MS. None of this means Immersion could not go to WL. Solves the overcrowding problem at WHS maybe without adjusting boundaries. I like this idea more and more.
Everyone keeps complaining about how big WL is/is getting; but sure, let's just put more option programs, and hence more students not zoned for it, there.
I'll support immersion to WL when IB moves from WL to WHS.
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