Spanish Immersion Community Table Session

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly? I think it was because immersion parents sent a large list of questions including pointing out some inaccurate data re: transportation Friday or Thursday and they likely needed time to answer questions and correct the data

So are current immersion parents opposed to the potential move?

Not most of the ones I've talked to, and they run the gamut of kids currently in middle and ones who will be impacted by this move. Some aren't super happy about current 6th graders moving schools for 8th grade, but at the same time they realize it's not a reason to stall it.

I suspect the Hamm/Williamsburg parents throwing tantrums about their boundaries being moved have maybe been louder than "eh fine" from the Immersion community. That would be unfortunate.

Why? If immersion parents don’t really care where their OPTION program is located, then the county should listen to “neighborhood schools” and let them actually attend the schools in their neighborhoods.

Because Williamsburg's boundaries should be re-drawn as it's under capacity. This will effect Hamm. It's just part of life in Arlington, it's a constant juggle to utilize resources. The ONLY reason those parents are fighting the Immersion move is because it's being coupled with their boundaries being re-drawn. It's the classic Arlington fight. No one wants their schools to change ever. And yet, it needs to happen. But the current parents will fight tooth and nail to stop something until their kid isn't going to be effected, and then they don't care one bit. That's not how we should decide things.

APS has explicitly tied moving immersion with the middle school boundary process. It's in the Pre-CIP. Look at page A-111 (pg 153 of the PDF). There is a table trying to justify why moving immersion to Kenmore will cause less disturbance overall than leaving it at Gunston. They conveniently did not include a column showing the impact of moving it to Williamsburg because that's the scenario that actually impacts the fewest students.

Except for the students currently in the immersion program -- moving a Spanish immersion program to a corner of the county with very few native Speakers would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. Williamsburg is not on the table because it is not an option that would work with the school's focus.

Exactly what would be the detrimental effect? Moving the middle school program would mean moving families who are already entrenched in the program having invested in sending their kids to immersion programming since kindergarten presumably. Further, the breakdown of Hispanic to non-Hispanic in the immersion program is targeted at 50%/50%. It is not as though the entire immersion program is Hispanic. Have you engaged the Hispanic community on the matter? Or are you just assuming. Further, per Great Schools, Williamsburg' demographics is currently at 12% Hispanic population. Last, there are plenty of ethnic pockets all over NOVA. That's how it goes in dense urban areas. Frankly, I think it would go a long way to shake up and break down the disparities between N and S Arlington to relocate the program to a school like Williamsburg.

Different poster than the one you are responding to, but you really don't see a problem with sending a large group of students from one end of the county to another? Do you actually want parents involved in their child's education, or just the parents who live close enough to Williamsburg that they can make it to school events without a SAHP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly? I think it was because immersion parents sent a large list of questions including pointing out some inaccurate data re: transportation Friday or Thursday and they likely needed time to answer questions and correct the data

So are current immersion parents opposed to the potential move?

Not most of the ones I've talked to, and they run the gamut of kids currently in middle and ones who will be impacted by this move. Some aren't super happy about current 6th graders moving schools for 8th grade, but at the same time they realize it's not a reason to stall it.

I suspect the Hamm/Williamsburg parents throwing tantrums about their boundaries being moved have maybe been louder than "eh fine" from the Immersion community. That would be unfortunate.

Why? If immersion parents don’t really care where their OPTION program is located, then the county should listen to “neighborhood schools” and let them actually attend the schools in their neighborhoods.

Because Williamsburg's boundaries should be re-drawn as it's under capacity. This will effect Hamm. It's just part of life in Arlington, it's a constant juggle to utilize resources. The ONLY reason those parents are fighting the Immersion move is because it's being coupled with their boundaries being re-drawn. It's the classic Arlington fight. No one wants their schools to change ever. And yet, it needs to happen. But the current parents will fight tooth and nail to stop something until their kid isn't going to be effected, and then they don't care one bit. That's not how we should decide things.

APS has explicitly tied moving immersion with the middle school boundary process. It's in the Pre-CIP. Look at page A-111 (pg 153 of the PDF). There is a table trying to justify why moving immersion to Kenmore will cause less disturbance overall than leaving it at Gunston. They conveniently did not include a column showing the impact of moving it to Williamsburg because that's the scenario that actually impacts the fewest students.

Except for the students currently in the immersion program -- moving a Spanish immersion program to a corner of the county with very few native Speakers would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. Williamsburg is not on the table because it is not an option that would work with the school's focus.

Exactly what would be the detrimental effect? Moving the middle school program would mean moving families who are already entrenched in the program having invested in sending their kids to immersion programming since kindergarten presumably. Further, the breakdown of Hispanic to non-Hispanic in the immersion program is targeted at 50%/50%. It is not as though the entire immersion program is Hispanic. Have you engaged the Hispanic community on the matter? Or are you just assuming. Further, per Great Schools, Williamsburg' demographics is currently at 12% Hispanic population. Last, there are plenty of ethnic pockets all over NOVA. That's how it goes in dense urban areas. Frankly, I think it would go a long way to shake up and break down the disparities between N and S Arlington to relocate the program to a school like Williamsburg.

Different poster than the one you are responding to, but you really don't see a problem with sending a large group of students from one end of the county to another? Do you actually want parents involved in their child's education, or just the parents who live close enough to Williamsburg that they can make it to school events without a SAHP?

Because it's an option program, there is already not any sort of absolute expectation that the school will be located in proximity to any attendee's household. Your argument feels like a red herring, PP.

[Anonymous]

Ok quit fighting…who has the tea, spill it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly? I think it was because immersion parents sent a large list of questions including pointing out some inaccurate data re: transportation Friday or Thursday and they likely needed time to answer questions and correct the data

So are current immersion parents opposed to the potential move?

Not most of the ones I've talked to, and they run the gamut of kids currently in middle and ones who will be impacted by this move. Some aren't super happy about current 6th graders moving schools for 8th grade, but at the same time they realize it's not a reason to stall it.

I suspect the Hamm/Williamsburg parents throwing tantrums about their boundaries being moved have maybe been louder than "eh fine" from the Immersion community. That would be unfortunate.

Why? If immersion parents don’t really care where their OPTION program is located, then the county should listen to “neighborhood schools” and let them actually attend the schools in their neighborhoods.

Because Williamsburg's boundaries should be re-drawn as it's under capacity. This will effect Hamm. It's just part of life in Arlington, it's a constant juggle to utilize resources. The ONLY reason those parents are fighting the Immersion move is because it's being coupled with their boundaries being re-drawn. It's the classic Arlington fight. No one wants their schools to change ever. And yet, it needs to happen. But the current parents will fight tooth and nail to stop something until their kid isn't going to be effected, and then they don't care one bit. That's not how we should decide things.

APS has explicitly tied moving immersion with the middle school boundary process. It's in the Pre-CIP. Look at page A-111 (pg 153 of the PDF). There is a table trying to justify why moving immersion to Kenmore will cause less disturbance overall than leaving it at Gunston. They conveniently did not include a column showing the impact of moving it to Williamsburg because that's the scenario that actually impacts the fewest students.

Except for the students currently in the immersion program -- moving a Spanish immersion program to a corner of the county with very few native Speakers would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. Williamsburg is not on the table because it is not an option that would work with the school's focus.

Exactly what would be the detrimental effect? Moving the middle school program would mean moving families who are already entrenched in the program having invested in sending their kids to immersion programming since kindergarten presumably. Further, the breakdown of Hispanic to non-Hispanic in the immersion program is targeted at 50%/50%. It is not as though the entire immersion program is Hispanic. Have you engaged the Hispanic community on the matter? Or are you just assuming. Further, per Great Schools, Williamsburg' demographics is currently at 12% Hispanic population. Last, there are plenty of ethnic pockets all over NOVA. That's how it goes in dense urban areas. Frankly, I think it would go a long way to shake up and break down the disparities between N and S Arlington to relocate the program to a school like Williamsburg.

I know you fashion yourself progressive, but the use of phrase “ethnic pockets” may be the most Arlington-limousine-liberal- “living in a bubble” thing I’ve heard in a long time. Never change Arlington.

[Anonymous]

But isn't Gunston at the other end of the community too? I thought it had more minority students, but it really doesn't. It's pretty equal to Jefferson, and only Kenmore has more minority (Latino) students.

Maybe the immersion program needs to go to Kenmore after all? May keep more of the Hispanic population in the immersion pipeline for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But isn't Gunston at the other end of the community too? I thought it had more minority students, but it really doesn't. It's pretty equal to Jefferson, and only Kenmore has more minority (Latino) students.

Maybe the immersion program needs to go to Kenmore after all? May keep more of the Hispanic population in the immersion pipeline for sure.

Same poster. Williamsburg is pretty white though.

[Anonymous]

It should go to Williamsburg, if they really project the school to be permanently under-enrolled. Otherwise Kenmore. If Hispanics value the program they will put their kids on the bus to follow the option program, as they will do for ATS and HB. If they don't value it, the program could be downsized. Spanish immersion is overemphasized at the moment. There is another thread where many, many families are reporting significant academic problems after years in immersion. I think the trends will not support two elementary schools and very large MS and HS programs going forward.

[Anonymous]

Reminder that native Spanish speaking is NOT the same thing as low income, especially in the context of Immersion at APS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly? I think it was because immersion parents sent a large list of questions including pointing out some inaccurate data re: transportation Friday or Thursday and they likely needed time to answer questions and correct the data

So are current immersion parents opposed to the potential move?

Not most of the ones I've talked to, and they run the gamut of kids currently in middle and ones who will be impacted by this move. Some aren't super happy about current 6th graders moving schools for 8th grade, but at the same time they realize it's not a reason to stall it.

I suspect the Hamm/Williamsburg parents throwing tantrums about their boundaries being moved have maybe been louder than "eh fine" from the Immersion community. That would be unfortunate.

Why? If immersion parents don’t really care where their OPTION program is located, then the county should listen to “neighborhood schools” and let them actually attend the schools in their neighborhoods.

Because Williamsburg's boundaries should be re-drawn as it's under capacity. This will effect Hamm. It's just part of life in Arlington, it's a constant juggle to utilize resources. The ONLY reason those parents are fighting the Immersion move is because it's being coupled with their boundaries being re-drawn. It's the classic Arlington fight. No one wants their schools to change ever. And yet, it needs to happen. But the current parents will fight tooth and nail to stop something until their kid isn't going to be effected, and then they don't care one bit. That's not how we should decide things.

APS has explicitly tied moving immersion with the middle school boundary process. It's in the Pre-CIP. Look at page A-111 (pg 153 of the PDF). There is a table trying to justify why moving immersion to Kenmore will cause less disturbance overall than leaving it at Gunston. They conveniently did not include a column showing the impact of moving it to Williamsburg because that's the scenario that actually impacts the fewest students.

Except for the students currently in the immersion program -- moving a Spanish immersion program to a corner of the county with very few native Speakers would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. Williamsburg is not on the table because it is not an option that would work with the school's focus.

Exactly what would be the detrimental effect? Moving the middle school program would mean moving families who are already entrenched in the program having invested in sending their kids to immersion programming since kindergarten presumably. Further, the breakdown of Hispanic to non-Hispanic in the immersion program is targeted at 50%/50%. It is not as though the entire immersion program is Hispanic. Have you engaged the Hispanic community on the matter? Or are you just assuming. Further, per Great Schools, Williamsburg' demographics is currently at 12% Hispanic population. Last, there are plenty of ethnic pockets all over NOVA. That's how it goes in dense urban areas. Frankly, I think it would go a long way to shake up and break down the disparities between N and S Arlington to relocate the program to a school like Williamsburg.

Different poster than the one you are responding to, but you really don't see a problem with sending a large group of students from one end of the county to another? Do you actually want parents involved in their child's education, or just the parents who live close enough to Williamsburg that they can make it to school events without a SAHP?

School events in FIng MIDDLE SCHOOL??? Not a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But isn't Gunston at the other end of the community too? I thought it had more minority students, but it really doesn't. It's pretty equal to Jefferson, and only Kenmore has more minority (Latino) students.

Maybe the immersion program needs to go to Kenmore after all? May keep more of the Hispanic population in the immersion pipeline for sure.

So moving to Gunston groups the Latino populations together? Wasn’t there a word for that? Separation? Sorting hat? No some other s word…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But isn't Gunston at the other end of the community too? I thought it had more minority students, but it really doesn't. It's pretty equal to Jefferson, and only Kenmore has more minority (Latino) students.

Maybe the immersion program needs to go to Kenmore after all? May keep more of the Hispanic population in the immersion pipeline for sure.

So moving to Gunston groups the Latino populations together? Wasn’t there a word for that? Separation? Sorting hat? No some other s word…

While I don't agree with segregation since you want to make light of it for some reason. For an immersion program, though, it is important to have a Latino population. I wonder just how many of our Hispanic students actually continue immersion through middle/high school. Or is it just white kids whose parents want them to be bilingual?

I need data. Maybe if I ask kindly, APS will give it to me rather than me having to FOIA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reminder that native Spanish speaking is NOT the same thing as low income, especially in the context of Immersion at APS.

True, but again, in this context it is important since the immersion program is supposed to be 50/50.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly? I think it was because immersion parents sent a large list of questions including pointing out some inaccurate data re: transportation Friday or Thursday and they likely needed time to answer questions and correct the data

So are current immersion parents opposed to the potential move?

Not most of the ones I've talked to, and they run the gamut of kids currently in middle and ones who will be impacted by this move. Some aren't super happy about current 6th graders moving schools for 8th grade, but at the same time they realize it's not a reason to stall it.

I suspect the Hamm/Williamsburg parents throwing tantrums about their boundaries being moved have maybe been louder than "eh fine" from the Immersion community. That would be unfortunate.

Why? If immersion parents don’t really care where their OPTION program is located, then the county should listen to “neighborhood schools” and let them actually attend the schools in their neighborhoods.

Because Williamsburg's boundaries should be re-drawn as it's under capacity. This will effect Hamm. It's just part of life in Arlington, it's a constant juggle to utilize resources. The ONLY reason those parents are fighting the Immersion move is because it's being coupled with their boundaries being re-drawn. It's the classic Arlington fight. No one wants their schools to change ever. And yet, it needs to happen. But the current parents will fight tooth and nail to stop something until their kid isn't going to be effected, and then they don't care one bit. That's not how we should decide things.

APS has explicitly tied moving immersion with the middle school boundary process. It's in the Pre-CIP. Look at page A-111 (pg 153 of the PDF). There is a table trying to justify why moving immersion to Kenmore will cause less disturbance overall than leaving it at Gunston. They conveniently did not include a column showing the impact of moving it to Williamsburg because that's the scenario that actually impacts the fewest students.

Except for the students currently in the immersion program -- moving a Spanish immersion program to a corner of the county with very few native Speakers would almost certainly have a detrimental effect. Williamsburg is not on the table because it is not an option that would work with the school's focus.

Exactly what would be the detrimental effect? Moving the middle school program would mean moving families who are already entrenched in the program having invested in sending their kids to immersion programming since kindergarten presumably. Further, the breakdown of Hispanic to non-Hispanic in the immersion program is targeted at 50%/50%. It is not as though the entire immersion program is Hispanic. Have you engaged the Hispanic community on the matter? Or are you just assuming. Further, per Great Schools, Williamsburg' demographics is currently at 12% Hispanic population. Last, there are plenty of ethnic pockets all over NOVA. That's how it goes in dense urban areas. Frankly, I think it would go a long way to shake up and break down the disparities between N and S Arlington to relocate the program to a school like Williamsburg.

It would not. Not one bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reminder that native Spanish speaking is NOT the same thing as low income, especially in the context of Immersion at APS.

True, but again, in this context it is important since the immersion program is supposed to be 50/50.

This is a pretty important point. There are actually two Spanish speaking communities. One that is mostly white bilingual parents/South American Embassy parents/wealthy (and often white presenting) families from South of the Border. Then there's the resource-poor parents mostly from Central America, Puerto Rico and Venezuela.

Both groups of children are actually considered ELL students. But one group definitely has more privilege than the other, and are usually bilingual before starting K. Which group actually continues the immersion pipeline? That's the question that needs to be asked. I suspect the poorer families, they may not continue through the Spanish Immersion program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It should go to Williamsburg, if they really project the school to be permanently under-enrolled. Otherwise Kenmore. If Hispanics value the program they will put their kids on the bus to follow the option program, as they will do for ATS and HB. If they don't value it, the program could be downsized. Spanish immersion is overemphasized at the moment. There is another thread where many, many families are reporting significant academic problems after years in immersion. I think the trends will not support two elementary schools and very large MS and HS programs going forward.

That certainly hasn't been my experience. Is there any actual data on this?