FLES in FCPS - is it possible to opt out?

[Anonymous]

My DS (1st grade, in attentive ADHD, dyslexia) is in a school that has a FLES program (Spanish, twice a week). He hates it, and I just got an email from the teacher saying he's not paying attention and isn't progressing as he should. I feel like he has enough on his plate grasping how to read and write English, and tonight when he was doing his homework he wrote "si" for "is" twice. I know there are parents who have opted out of immersion programs for their kids with LD's, but language immersion is optional from my understanding and FLES is like an additional special that all students receive. Any insight from those who may have BTDT, or suggestions for me? I'm so tired of seeing him struggle.

[Anonymous]

I don't have any good advice but I do have a lot of sympathy. We pulled my older DS from the Spanish immersion program in 1st when we learned of his ADHD/LD. My NT DD remains in it but we didn't even consider it for our younger DS who has ADHD/LD/apraxia and a language/communication disorder. This year, our school introduced FLES (Spanish) and we weren't able to opt out of it for either boy. What's ironic is that our youngest is classified as Limited English Proficient because his scores on the English proficiency test are so low. It's a long story but my DH's family is South American and I indicated on the home survey form that Spanish is also spoken in our home. It is but we communicate with the kids in English and all the TVs/movies they watch are in English, we read to them in English and all their playmates speak English (even the ones from El Salvador). Yet, for my younger DS who isn't proficient in any language - even his native English - I could opt out of the ESL services but I couldn't opt out of FLES. At least the FLES teacher is enthusiastic and fun. The boys don't mind the class. Your DS's teacher must not be great if he's complaining. Believe me, if it wasn't fun or if it were hard, my DSs would be proclaiming their dislike of it to the high heavens. And, she's never commented on their inattentiveness or lack of participation (my youngest refused to participate for a while). You have my sympathy.

(BTW - I wouldn't read to much into the 'si' for 'is' thing. This is still a common mistake in first grade.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DS (1st grade, in attentive ADHD, dyslexia) is in a school that has a FLES program (Spanish, twice a week). He hates it, and I just got an email from the teacher saying he's not paying attention and isn't progressing as he should. I feel like he has enough on his plate grasping how to read and write English, and tonight when he was doing his homework he wrote "si" for "is" twice. I know there are parents who have opted out of immersion programs for their kids with LD's, but language immersion is optional from my understanding and FLES is like an additional special that all students receive. Any insight from those who may have BTDT, or suggestions for me? I'm so tired of seeing him struggle.

Does he have an IEP? I know in HS students with profound LDs can get a waiver to not take foreign language in HS and still qualify for the advanced diploma. I would think that there would be a similar option for FLES.

The waiver in HS isn't really for HS as a student can graduate with the Standard Diploma, but it add another piece of "evidence" if the student needs to get a waiver for college. This is where we are. There are many colleges that waive or do not require foreign langiage to graduate, but some require significant documentation others won't waive or have too high bars. FOr example, UVA will only waive the foreign language requirement if the students tried and failed. It is a catch 22, if a student fails a class in HS, his GPA will be too low to get into UVA. OTOH, Virginia Tech does not have a foreign language requirement.

[Anonymous]

It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

[Anonymous]

8:11 here. Yes, my DSs both have IEPs and pretty much have had them since starting/or before school. Because they only receive marks (grades) for effort) and there are no grade level benchmarks/standards, there are no IEP goals/services. The only marks the boys have received are for 'effort'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

OP here - The point is that the interventions are not available in FLES. This article from the Internation Dyslexia Association sums up my concerns. Yes, perhaps if his teacher was experienced at adapting the curriculum then he would do well, but the point is she isn't, which is why her intepretation of the problem is simply that he needs to "pay better attention".

In general, foreign language teachers are not trained to identify specific learning needs, nor are they trained to provide specific accommodations. Their training may have stressed whole-language-like strategies for in-class learning and testing of the four language areas in the foreign language. Oral communication, language laboratory practice with listening tapes, and computer-assisted learning are currently traditional components of foreign language learning classes. These methods of instruction may serve the ideal learner without language processing problems, but they are often detrimental to the at-risk learner, who may need a more systematic, structured, multisensory approach.

http://www.interdys.org/ewebeditpro5/upload/AtRiskStudentsForeignLanguage2012.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

OP here - The point is that the interventions are not available in FLES. This article from the Internation Dyslexia Association sums up my concerns. Yes, perhaps if his teacher was experienced at adapting the curriculum then he would do well, but the point is she isn't, which is why her intepretation of the problem is simply that he needs to "pay better attention".

In general, foreign language teachers are not trained to identify specific learning needs, nor are they trained to provide specific accommodations. Their training may have stressed whole-language-like strategies for in-class learning and testing of the four language areas in the foreign language. Oral communication, language laboratory practice with listening tapes, and computer-assisted learning are currently traditional components of foreign language learning classes. These methods of instruction may serve the ideal learner without language processing problems, but they are often detrimental to the at-risk learner, who may need a more systematic, structured, multisensory approach.

http://www.interdys.org/ewebeditpro5/upload/AtRiskStudentsForeignLanguage2012.pdf

This is an interesting issue actually. Under the IDEA, foreign languages are considered a "core subject" that entitles a student to accomodations and services. School systems need to be more accountable for this - we have gotten some accomodations for DC, who has an IEP and is in an immersion program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

PP here.


It isn't a myth for my son. He has aural dyslexia, Rapid Naming issues (1st percentile for that test), phomene issues and he has finally crawled up to low average for decoding (after 6 years of major remediation). (some call it double deficit dyslexia and some call it triple deficit dyslexia) He also has dual deficit ADHD that is diminished but not erased by medication. He also has profound dysgraphia, at 14 his handwriting looks like a kindergartener- after years and years of remediation. English is hard enough for him. Unfortunately his HS does not teach ASL- as that could be an option for him. He currently has to dictate his tests (in English) to a scribe and cannot punctuate or spell himself out of a paper bag.

The only way he would be able to pick up a language would be aurally- as reading and writing is problematic- which gets us back to his aural dyslexia.

That is why we are requesting a foreign language waiver. Which is why I posted about it. Please do not assume.

(BTW, DH is fluent in two other languages and the only way he did it was to live for a year in each country.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

8:11 here. My DH's first language is Spanish and I am multi-lingual. We are very supportive and enthusiastic about all our kids learning other languages - which is why our NT DD is in the immersion program. I don't need to be lectured on the benefits of learning another language.

I'm glad that your DC is able to access the curriculum in the immersion program. However, just because your DC can do that without special services and support doesn't mean that all or even most LD kids can. In FCPS elementary schools, special education services are not provided in any language other than English. My older DS WAS in the Spanish immersion program and most certainly did not perform the same as when subject were taught in Spanish (Science and Math). It was only when he began receiving special education services that he was able to access the curricula. It was a very difficult decision to pull him from the program but it was more important for us that he learn the content in at least one language. Had those services been available in Spanish, we would have kept him in the program. But, they are not. In FCPS, they’re only available in English. We saw no need for him to continue with a program that not only inhibited his learning, but was also the cause of significant anxiety that carried over into every other area. It is not his fault he has these challenges and it is unfair and unkind to put in an environment where he is not capable of being successful.

As I indicated in my earlier post, my younger DS has apraxia of speech and a language/communication disorder that result in significant expressive/receptive language issues. Even though he’s been in an English speaking environment his entire life, in a FCPS classroom for almost 5 years, including 3 years in the non-cat preschool, and has had years of intensive private and school and he only scored a level 2 (Beginning) on the WIDA English Proficiency Exam. Yet, you think it’s unreasonable of me to think that it’s too difficult for him to learn a second language in this environment?

Again, I’m glad your DC is capable of being successful in the immersion program but you really shouldn’t be ranting about parents whose children aren’t as capable.

[Anonymous]

OP here and I just wanted to say thank you to the posters who offered empathy and support. It's really validating to hear that it's difficult for other kids. Sometimes I feel very alone in this (watching my DS struggle to read basic CVC words when many of his friends are reading at the 4th or 5th grade level). Of course I also know that every child struggles in some way and that there are kids who have it harder. But last night I felt like sh&$, and today you made me feel better. So thank you.

[Anonymous]

What does your son learn in 2x Spanish class in first grade? I seriously doubt there is a lot of reading and/or writing. They probably learn to count, name stuff like body parts, etc. It definitely is not immersion or even learning a language. Only some exposure for enrichment and probably counts the same as a special like music, art and PE class. This is definitely NOT immersion.

Even if he hates the twice a week Spanish, I would not opt him out of it. If your DS did not like music, art or PE would you let him opt out simply b/c he did not like it. He's going to have to learn at some point that he needs to put forth effort on things he does not like... and this is only twice a wk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a myth that learning a second language is too hard for kids with (most) LDs. Immersion in fact is the best way to do it because it's multi-sensory and intuitive. Just because a child complains does not mean s/he should get a waiver to be removed. What if your kid hated science? Would you demand a waiver for that?

As parent with a child with ADHD and LDs (writing, and possibly additional ones) in immersion, I honestly do not see what taking away the second language would do. DC performs pretty much the same in subjects taught in English and Spanish. The writing (and reading) issues are similar - and different. Reversals are reversals in any language, but yes, we see issues unique to each language as well -- that can be remedied with tailored interventions.

Only in America do we seem to think that learning a second language is just too hard -- even for NT kids (it amazes me to see parents complaining in other forums here about kids having to waste time better devoted to more English or math to learning a foreign language - it blows me away that uber-educated parents in this area actually think this way, but that's another rant).

8:11 here. My DH's first language is Spanish and I am multi-lingual. We are very supportive and enthusiastic about all our kids learning other languages - which is why our NT DD is in the immersion program. I don't need to be lectured on the benefits of learning another language.

I'm glad that your DC is able to access the curriculum in the immersion program. However, just because your DC can do that without special services and support doesn't mean that all or even most LD kids can. In FCPS elementary schools, special education services are not provided in any language other than English. My older DS WAS in the Spanish immersion program and most certainly did not perform the same as when subject were taught in Spanish (Science and Math). It was only when he began receiving special education services that he was able to access the curricula. It was a very difficult decision to pull him from the program but it was more important for us that he learn the content in at least one language. Had those services been available in Spanish, we would have kept him in the program. But, they are not. In FCPS, they’re only available in English. We saw no need for him to continue with a program that not only inhibited his learning, but was also the cause of significant anxiety that carried over into every other area. It is not his fault he has these challenges and it is unfair and unkind to put in an environment where he is not capable of being successful.

As I indicated in my earlier post, my younger DS has apraxia of speech and a language/communication disorder that result in significant expressive/receptive language issues. Even though he’s been in an English speaking environment his entire life, in a FCPS classroom for almost 5 years, including 3 years in the non-cat preschool, and has had years of intensive private and school and he only scored a level 2 (Beginning) on the WIDA English Proficiency Exam. Yet, you think it’s unreasonable of me to think that it’s too difficult for him to learn a second language in this environment?

Again, I’m glad your DC is capable of being successful in the immersion program but you really shouldn’t be ranting about parents whose children aren’t as capable.

I'm the one who posted about a child who has stuck with the program and likely will continue it. As I said up front, it depends on a child's disabilities. As for services, it's only now, late in elementary that we became fully aware that, legally, the school system is required to provide services or at least accomodations; most school systems, including ours, are not prepared for this and, in fact, for years we were told that they don't provide such services -- and we accepted that as accurate. It's not. So we've been working with them on accomodations. I will say that that the lack of services until now has definitely not been helpful but nevertheless, the special ed services in English have helped with Spanish reading and writing. DC's reading in Spanish took off at the same time as reading in English did -- but both also remain challenging (DC now reads close to grade level after lagging a year+ behind in English reading). Also, there's transference - DC was able to talk in English about subjects learned in Spanish with no problem. I also understand that speech issues can be very different - DC "only" has ADHD and a writing disability (although we think there may be others)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does your son learn in 2x Spanish class in first grade? I seriously doubt there is a lot of reading and/or writing. They probably learn to count, name stuff like body parts, etc. It definitely is not immersion or even learning a language. Only some exposure for enrichment and probably counts the same as a special like music, art and PE class. This is definitely NOT immersion.

Even if he hates the twice a week Spanish, I would not opt him out of it. If your DS did not like music, art or PE would you let him opt out simply b/c he did not like it. He's going to have to learn at some point that he needs to put forth effort on things he does not like... and this is only twice a wk.

This is a little bit off topic. But my opinion is that if my child HATES a subject, the subject is not being taught correctly for my son. I think it causes more damage in the long run for a child to HATE school or parts of it...

[Anonymous]

I'm the one who posted about a child who has stuck with the program and likely will continue it. As I said up front, it depends on a child's disabilities. As for services, it's only now, late in elementary that we became fully aware that, legally, the school system is required to provide services or at least accomodations; most school systems, including ours, are not prepared for this and, in fact, for years we were told that they don't provide such services -- and we accepted that as accurate. It's not. So we've been working with them on accomodations. I will say that that the lack of services until now has definitely not been helpful but nevertheless, the special ed services in English have helped with Spanish reading and writing. DC's reading in Spanish took off at the same time as reading in English did -- but both also remain challenging (DC now reads close to grade level after lagging a year+ behind in English reading). Also, there's transference - DC was able to talk in English about subjects learned in Spanish with no problem. I also understand that speech issues can be very different - DC "only" has ADHD and a writing disability (although we think there may be others)

At the elementary level, foreign language isn't a core subject. FCPS is not required to provide foreign language special ed services. If a child is unable to access the curricula in the target language without special education services then immersion will be deemed inappropriate for the child and he will be re-assigned to a non-immersion classroom. Not saying kids wouldn't benefit from it but considering the funding situation, I understand it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does your son learn in 2x Spanish class in first grade? I seriously doubt there is a lot of reading and/or writing. They probably learn to count, name stuff like body parts, etc. It definitely is not immersion or even learning a language. Only some exposure for enrichment and probably counts the same as a special like music, art and PE class. This is definitely NOT immersion.

Even if he hates the twice a week Spanish, I would not opt him out of it. If your DS did not like music, art or PE would you let him opt out simply b/c he did not like it. He's going to have to learn at some point that he needs to put forth effort on things he does not like... and this is only twice a wk.

This is a little bit off topic. But my opinion is that if my child HATES a subject, the subject is not being taught correctly for my son. I think it causes more damage in the long run for a child to HATE school or parts of it...

Well, I HATED PE when I was in school. Not everyone is going to like everything that's offered.

OP isn't talking about her son being in an immersion program. It's 2x a wk Spanish for what? 45 minutes, a special for enrichment and exposure, not for learning a foreign language. You can't use an 504 or IEP to opt out of a special b/c the kid hates the subject.