They want to go Essay optional as well

[Anonymous]

What is the consequence down the road for JD and MD applicants? Will those eventually be test optional as well? What about job apps? Is it fair only kids who went to medical school are allowed to become doctors? I’m only half kidding here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is the consequence down the road for JD and MD applicants? Will those eventually be test optional as well? What about job apps? Is it fair only kids who went to medical school are allowed to become doctors? I’m only half kidding here.

That half should be quiet and let the other half talk.

[Anonymous]

Or we could go back to entrance exams for each individual college with all the time and effort it takes but now they can be virtual. The common app made it easier to apply to a ton of schools no matter if the student is truly interested or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The essay is the worst part. There is no way to tell who wrote it, who revised it, or how much the kid paid for either process. There is an entire industry based around 'helping' kids write these essays. They are most reflective of how much parents had to spend and how talented the advisor is

In fairness, it is easier to go through life if one is not cheating. But as to identifying genuine essays, it's actually not that hard. Not at all. Because you can hear the voice of the student, which is not something that can be coached.

??? WTF are you talking about?

[Anonymous]

* Get rid of the essays. They can and are being gamed.
* Tests - Provide everyone the opportunity to prep online. My kid used Khan Academy and one other online course (Prepexpert). Khan Academy is free. Prepexpert cost about $600. Pay poor kids to take these courses.
* ECs - Make a list of "real" ECs - Jobs, community service, ECs related to your major IN SCHOOL, etc. I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list.
* Assign a certain percentage of seats to poor people and "true" URMs (Native Americans and Blacks with slave ancestry on both sides of the family). Others should be covered by the "poor" category.

Can colleges be forced to do play?
- State schools can, by Government mandate.
- The so-called Private schools will play along if you threaten to remove their tax subsidy (i.e. make them pay tax on their income).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the consequence down the road for JD and MD applicants? Will those eventually be test optional as well? What about job apps? Is it fair only kids who went to medical school are allowed to become doctors? I’m only half kidding here.

That half should be quiet and let the other half talk.

Where does it end?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the consequence down the road for JD and MD applicants? Will those eventually be test optional as well? What about job apps? Is it fair only kids who went to medical school are allowed to become doctors? I’m only half kidding here.

That half should be quiet and let the other half talk.

Where does it end?

It ends with the colleges deciding what is in their best interest.

As it should.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The essay is the worst part. There is no way to tell who wrote it, who revised it, or how much the kid paid for either process. There is an entire industry based around 'helping' kids write these essays. They are most reflective of how much parents had to spend and how talented the advisor is

In fairness, it is easier to go through life if one is not cheating. But as to identifying genuine essays, it's actually not that hard. Not at all. Because you can hear the voice of the student, which is not something that can be coached.

??? WTF are you talking about?

Not the PP to whom you're responding but yes, admissions officers are not as stupid as some people on DCUM insist they are, and they can and do have great noses for smelling out fake essays. And if you don't understand what "voice" means in written pieces, well, you're not an English instructor or college admissions staffer who must read essays, I'm guessing.

[Anonymous]

And what do admissions officers do then they « sniff » an essay they think was written with the help of a paid consultant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:* Get rid of the essays. They can and are being gamed.
* Tests - Provide everyone the opportunity to prep online. My kid used Khan Academy and one other online course (Prepexpert). Khan Academy is free. Prepexpert cost about $600. Pay poor kids to take these courses.
* ECs - Make a list of "real" ECs - Jobs, community service, ECs related to your major IN SCHOOL, etc. I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list.
* Assign a certain percentage of seats to poor people and "true" URMs (Native Americans and Blacks with slave ancestry on both sides of the family). Others should be covered by the "poor" category.

Can colleges be forced to do play?
- State schools can, by Government mandate.
- The so-called Private schools will play along if you threaten to remove their tax subsidy (i.e. make them pay tax on their income).

Wow. Re: the bold, you'd say that kids who want to go to college would have to ignore doing any ECs they actually enjoy, or which fulfill them personally, because they'd have to spend that time on "jobs, community service, ECs related to your [college] major [in high school]." I guess you can counter that kids can do whatever they want but shouldn't put anything on college applications except the three categories you list.

1. There are not necessarily "ECs related to" a kid's desired college major available at the kid's high school or elsewhere; and many high schoolers don't yet know what they plan to choose as a major so how would they rack up those college-major-related ECs in high school?
2. Community service is already a high school requirement in many school systems.
3. Jobs? Are you one of the adults who believes there are endless jobs out there for high school kids? Do you have any idea how much time advanced HS courses can take up even on weekends? Sure, there are kids who work jobs and also take the hardest HS courses and succeed. But it's not a given that having a job is doable, or desirable in EVERY case. It certainly shouldn't affect a kid's college admission if he or she couldn't work a job for pay while in HS. Some kids live in areas where there aren't jobs for the asking. Maybe you're unaware of that....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:* Get rid of the essays. They can and are being gamed.
* Tests - Provide everyone the opportunity to prep online. My kid used Khan Academy and one other online course (Prepexpert). Khan Academy is free. Prepexpert cost about $600. Pay poor kids to take these courses.
* ECs - Make a list of "real" ECs - Jobs, community service, ECs related to your major IN SCHOOL, etc. I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list.
* Assign a certain percentage of seats to poor people and "true" URMs (Native Americans and Blacks with slave ancestry on both sides of the family). Others should be covered by the "poor" category.

Can colleges be forced to do play?
- State schools can, by Government mandate.
- The so-called Private schools will play along if you threaten to remove their tax subsidy (i.e. make them pay tax on their income).

Wow. Re: the bold, you'd say that kids who want to go to college would have to ignore doing any ECs they actually enjoy, or which fulfill them personally, because they'd have to spend that time on "jobs, community service, ECs related to your [college] major [in high school]." I guess you can counter that kids can do whatever they want but shouldn't put anything on college applications except the three categories you list.

1. There are not necessarily "ECs related to" a kid's desired college major available at the kid's high school or elsewhere; and many high schoolers don't yet know what they plan to choose as a major so how would they rack up those college-major-related ECs in high school?
2. Community service is already a high school requirement in many school systems.
3. Jobs? Are you one of the adults who believes there are endless jobs out there for high school kids? Do you have any idea how much time advanced HS courses can take up even on weekends? Sure, there are kids who work jobs and also take the hardest HS courses and succeed. But it's not a given that having a job is doable, or desirable in EVERY case. It certainly shouldn't affect a kid's college admission if he or she couldn't work a job for pay while in HS. Some kids live in areas where there aren't jobs for the asking. Maybe you're unaware of that....

Those were just suggestions. See the sentence that follows " I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list. ".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The essay is the worst part. There is no way to tell who wrote it, who revised it, or how much the kid paid for either process. There is an entire industry based around 'helping' kids write these essays. They are most reflective of how much parents had to spend and how talented the advisor is

In fairness, it is easier to go through life if one is not cheating. But as to identifying genuine essays, it's actually not that hard. Not at all. Because you can hear the voice of the student, which is not something that can be coached.

??? WTF are you talking about?

Not the PP to whom you're responding but yes, admissions officers are not as stupid as some people on DCUM insist they are, and they can and do have great noses for smelling out fake essays. And if you don't understand what "voice" means in written pieces, well, you're not an English instructor or college admissions staffer who must read essays, I'm guessing.

You guessed right. I'm guessing you are an English instructor or college admissions staffer who must read essays who lives under the delusion that you can "hear the voice" of the student in an essay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:* Get rid of the essays. They can and are being gamed.
* Tests - Provide everyone the opportunity to prep online. My kid used Khan Academy and one other online course (Prepexpert). Khan Academy is free. Prepexpert cost about $600. Pay poor kids to take these courses.
* ECs - Make a list of "real" ECs - Jobs, community service, ECs related to your major IN SCHOOL, etc. I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list.
* Assign a certain percentage of seats to poor people and "true" URMs (Native Americans and Blacks with slave ancestry on both sides of the family). Others should be covered by the "poor" category.

Can colleges be forced to do play?
- State schools can, by Government mandate.
- The so-called Private schools will play along if you threaten to remove their tax subsidy (i.e. make them pay tax on their income).

Wow. Re: the bold, you'd say that kids who want to go to college would have to ignore doing any ECs they actually enjoy, or which fulfill them personally, because they'd have to spend that time on "jobs, community service, ECs related to your [college] major [in high school]." I guess you can counter that kids can do whatever they want but shouldn't put anything on college applications except the three categories you list.

1. There are not necessarily "ECs related to" a kid's desired college major available at the kid's high school or elsewhere; and many high schoolers don't yet know what they plan to choose as a major so how would they rack up those college-major-related ECs in high school?
2. Community service is already a high school requirement in many school systems.
3. Jobs? Are you one of the adults who believes there are endless jobs out there for high school kids? Do you have any idea how much time advanced HS courses can take up even on weekends? Sure, there are kids who work jobs and also take the hardest HS courses and succeed. But it's not a given that having a job is doable, or desirable in EVERY case. It certainly shouldn't affect a kid's college admission if he or she couldn't work a job for pay while in HS. Some kids live in areas where there aren't jobs for the asking. Maybe you're unaware of that....

Those were just suggestions. See the sentence that follows " I'm sure others can come up with an equitable list. ".

It's difficult to come up with criteria where SES would not give an advantage to some extent. For example, my kids have loads of community service, but most of it depended upon our ability to transport them these opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Why not keep the essay but make it a proctored, on the spot exercise? Like the old SAT/ACT essays. I would not grade it, just provide it to the colleges so they can read it and get an idea of the student’s critical thinking and organization skills as well as their writing skills as they respond to a prompt. The prompt could be unique, so as to mimimize the prep advantage.

[Anonymous]

Why can't support low cost or free support be given to students in need to assist them with their college essays?

I believe in spending money to provide support to students who need it rather than eliminating requirements. Why not have after school essay classes, or community based essay review?