Teacher marking things wrong in math if they don't show work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sadly , this is my kid too. In high school now and he gets all the answers right but loses points for never showing the work. And refuses on principle because "its stupid"

Well, tell him that when he goes to work, people won’t be interested in his results without knowing how he got there.

It’s like the bank showing you your balance without an opportunity to see the transactions.

I would compare it more to the grocery store clerk writing a paragraph about how she is giving you back 5 dollars because you gave her ten and the groceries only added up to 5.

This is a silly comparison. The clerk has a calculator (cash register) that does the math for her. Back in the day, when they didn’t have calculators, I bet you the clerk wrote down the calculations.

And no need to write the paragraph, just show the calculations in a way that can indicate the thinking process. Actually math is really good at replacing words with symbols, which make your ‘sentences’ really succinct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sadly , this is my kid too. In high school now and he gets all the answers right but loses points for never showing the work. And refuses on principle because "its stupid"

Well, tell him that when he goes to work, people won’t be interested in his results without knowing how he got there.

It’s like the bank showing you your balance without an opportunity to see the transactions.

That's kind of funny because I have found the opposite. At work results are the ONLY thing that counts, and no one wants to hear about how I got there (much as I would like to talk about it).

I don’t know what line of work you’re in, but in most regular jobs, you have to show your work. Heck, in addition to managers and all senior level people you must report to, you have internal and external audit at a minimum. That is all about showing your work.

But if you can work without showing it, good for you.

[Anonymous]

I am listening to my son in his AoPS class. His Teacher expects kids to write down their soultions and be ableto explain how they got the answer to the group. He is in Third Grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

Exactly. If the instructions say to show your work, that’s what you need to do. There are good reasons for it and kids don’t necessarily understand the underlying reasons now, but they will when they are older. And they will appreciate the teachers who insisted on following instructions.

OP here - I am a teacher, and I don't think our stated mission anywhere is to teach kids to follow instructions. I thought it was to teach them critical thinking, yada yada. So following instructions when it means doing something unnecessary that just make the work harder really isn't worth teaching. Like I said earlier - I was a teacher in fcps, and the only reason we insisted on them writing out the work was when we started the SOL high stakes testing and really needed them to get every answer right. There was no educational theory at all behind that.

If nothing else it’s important to be in the habit of showing work by the time he gets to 6th grade because teachers will give partial credit if the problem was done sensibly but there was a something like a rounding error or copying down 6 instead of 9. Also, the fact is even gifted math students didn’t do complicated algebra problems in their head and there are conventions around d how work is shown that even your young Einstein needs to follow. Sounds like you are not helping the situation at all with your attitude (and like you were fairly shortsighted as a teacher too.)

[Anonymous]

Years ago, I was at home working on calculus homework (I think it was stuff with x-y-z axes so especially messy). I was making tea ad my ceramic teapot was sitting on the stove close to the gas burner when I was heating the water. Grabbed the teapot and had a ban burn on my right hand (and did NOT drop the teapot--it's a vintage pot with "Lipton" marked on the bottom).

The rest of the afternoon was horrible because working problems was kinda like muscle memory and my left hand didn't have it!

[Anonymous]

If showing your work is part of the assignment, then yes, you're going to lose points if you refuse to show your work. I have a kid who can do math in his head and needing to show his work drives him crazy, but school isn't about picking and choosing which parts of the assignment you feel you need to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

This. DH is an aerospace engineer with degrees from MIT and Stanford and showing work is key because a lot of dumb mistakes are made when people try to do the work in their head. Teach your child early so it doesn’t become an issue that holds them back later.

+1

The habit of showing your work is critical for any higher-level math, including algebra. If the question is asking the kid to show his work, he needs to show his work. The teacher needs to see how he's getting the answer, because that's part of the point, and it's helpful if he gets one wrong -- the teacher can see if it was a computational error, or an analytical one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

Exactly. If the instructions say to show your work, that’s what you need to do. There are good reasons for it and kids don’t necessarily understand the underlying reasons now, but they will when they are older. And they will appreciate the teachers who insisted on following instructions.

OP here - I am a teacher, and I don't think our stated mission anywhere is to teach kids to follow instructions. I thought it was to teach them critical thinking, yada yada. So following instructions when it means doing something unnecessary that just make the work harder really isn't worth teaching. Like I said earlier - I was a teacher in fcps, and the only reason we insisted on them writing out the work was when we started the SOL high stakes testing and really needed them to get every answer right. There was no educational theory at all behind that.

If nothing else it’s important to be in the habit of showing work by the time he gets to 6th grade because teachers will give partial credit if the problem was done sensibly but there was a something like a rounding error or copying down 6 instead of 9. Also, the fact is even gifted math students didn’t do complicated algebra problems in their head and there are conventions around d how work is shown that even your young Einstein needs to follow. Sounds like you are not helping the situation at all with your attitude (and like you were fairly shortsighted as a teacher too.)

+1

This is part of math. There are a TON of reasons why you need to show your work in math. At some point, even the most gifted kids can't do it all in their head. Better to establish the habit of showing your work early on. Plus, the point isn't that your kid knows the answer, it's that they know how they got that answer, because the method is the same even as the problems get harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

I would have to disagree with this. When I was a kid, being good at math meant being able to do it in your head. We actually were not allowed to write much out, and lost points if we did. So clearly this is arbitrary.

This cannot be true unless you are talking about basic math facts which should be memorized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

Exactly. If the instructions say to show your work, that’s what you need to do. There are good reasons for it and kids don’t necessarily understand the underlying reasons now, but they will when they are older. And they will appreciate the teachers who insisted on following instructions.

OP here - I am a teacher, and I don't think our stated mission anywhere is to teach kids to follow instructions. I thought it was to teach them critical thinking, yada yada. So following instructions when it means doing something unnecessary that just make the work harder really isn't worth teaching. Like I said earlier - I was a teacher in fcps, and the only reason we insisted on them writing out the work was when we started the SOL high stakes testing and really needed them to get every answer right. There was no educational theory at all behind that.

If nothing else it’s important to be in the habit of showing work by the time he gets to 6th grade because teachers will give partial credit if the problem was done sensibly but there was a something like a rounding error or copying down 6 instead of 9. Also, the fact is even gifted math students didn’t do complicated algebra problems in their head and there are conventions around d how work is shown that even your young Einstein needs to follow. Sounds like you are not helping the situation at all with your attitude (and like you were fairly shortsighted as a teacher too.)

+1

This is part of math. There are a TON of reasons why you need to show your work in math. At some point, even the most gifted kids can't do it all in their head. Better to establish the habit of showing your work early on. Plus, the point isn't that your kid knows the answer, it's that they know how they got that answer, because the method is the same even as the problems get harder.

Adding another reason to the pile for always showing your work... if anyone has ever had to go back and reassess an algorithm written by a previous worker, it is infinitely easier if that previous worker showed their work! Otherwise, you’re left wondering “well where did this pi come from? Should that be there?” Which of course leads to a lot of reinventing the wheel, otherwise known as wasting time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

Exactly. If the instructions say to show your work, that’s what you need to do. There are good reasons for it and kids don’t necessarily understand the underlying reasons now, but they will when they are older. And they will appreciate the teachers who insisted on following instructions.

OP here - I am a teacher, and I don't think our stated mission anywhere is to teach kids to follow instructions. I thought it was to teach them critical thinking, yada yada. So following instructions when it means doing something unnecessary that just make the work harder really isn't worth teaching. Like I said earlier - I was a teacher in fcps, and the only reason we insisted on them writing out the work was when we started the SOL high stakes testing and really needed them to get every answer right. There was no educational theory at all behind that.

If nothing else it’s important to be in the habit of showing work by the time he gets to 6th grade because teachers will give partial credit if the problem was done sensibly but there was a something like a rounding error or copying down 6 instead of 9. Also, the fact is even gifted math students didn’t do complicated algebra problems in their head and there are conventions around d how work is shown that even your young Einstein needs to follow. Sounds like you are not helping the situation at all with your attitude (and like you were fairly shortsighted as a teacher too.)

+1

This is part of math. There are a TON of reasons why you need to show your work in math. At some point, even the most gifted kids can't do it all in their head. Better to establish the habit of showing your work early on. Plus, the point isn't that your kid knows the answer, it's that they know how they got that answer, because the method is the same even as the problems get harder.

Please cite some educational research that shows that math achievement is in any way improved by kids being able to show their work on paper.

You can't. Because it doesn't exist.

Know what does? Research that shows that forcing kids to write down work unnecessarily (like simple problems that most kids can and do do in their heads) actually negatively impacts achievement.

When the problems are too difficult to solve without writing them out, then kids will write them out. Doing otherwise is illogical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s part of math and will be necessary as he advances so definitely best not to fight it but instead support him developing the skill. Whatever you don’t act like getting out of showing work is worthwhile goal or that he is somehow “good at math” because he can do it in his head. Being good at math includes showing work.

Exactly. If the instructions say to show your work, that’s what you need to do. There are good reasons for it and kids don’t necessarily understand the underlying reasons now, but they will when they are older. And they will appreciate the teachers who insisted on following instructions.

OP here - I am a teacher, and I don't think our stated mission anywhere is to teach kids to follow instructions. I thought it was to teach them critical thinking, yada yada. So following instructions when it means doing something unnecessary that just make the work harder really isn't worth teaching. Like I said earlier - I was a teacher in fcps, and the only reason we insisted on them writing out the work was when we started the SOL high stakes testing and really needed them to get every answer right. There was no educational theory at all behind that.

If nothing else it’s important to be in the habit of showing work by the time he gets to 6th grade because teachers will give partial credit if the problem was done sensibly but there was a something like a rounding error or copying down 6 instead of 9. Also, the fact is even gifted math students didn’t do complicated algebra problems in their head and there are conventions around d how work is shown that even your young Einstein needs to follow. Sounds like you are not helping the situation at all with your attitude (and like you were fairly shortsighted as a teacher too.)

+1

This is part of math. There are a TON of reasons why you need to show your work in math. At some point, even the most gifted kids can't do it all in their head. Better to establish the habit of showing your work early on. Plus, the point isn't that your kid knows the answer, it's that they know how they got that answer, because the method is the same even as the problems get harder.

Adding another reason to the pile for always showing your work... if anyone has ever had to go back and reassess an algorithm written by a previous worker, it is infinitely easier if that previous worker showed their work! Otherwise, you’re left wondering “well where did this pi come from? Should that be there?” Which of course leads to a lot of reinventing the wheel, otherwise known as wasting time.

We're not talking about ocmplicated problems. I'm talking about: 6x = 12.

And 6x2 = 12 therefore x=2 is not considered enough detail. It is supposed to actually be more detailed than that. How? She wants a paragraph sometimes. Not kidding.

[Anonymous]

I wonder how many people insisting kids should show their work realize that this actually comes from common core. It's not show your work exactly, it's more like they want a written explanation of the work. It's more than the old write down your calculations, which was pretty straightforward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

When the problems are too difficult to solve without writing them out, then kids will write them out. Doing otherwise is illogical.

This. Glad that my DC is in MS now. When she was in ES, I told her that never mind that you get a B or C from your math teacher as long as you know it. Now she is taking an AOPS course in Counting, and she naturally writes down her steps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every kid complains about this. It’s just par for the course. Help teach him how to show his work since he claims for some reason he can’t. That’s the skill he needs to be working on right now.

Generally yes, but also no. Have you seen some of the inane stuff they assign in AAP? Basic questions like Does 26 + 4 = 31 - 1 ? "Explain your thinking" And all 15 slides that want a word salad explanation of each of these simple questions like this.

If the teacher gods want students to explain their thinking, it would behoove them to give them some problems that require actual thinking. Otherwise they are wasting the kids time, and of course no kid is going to want to write out tedious responses to questions such as the above. Give them something challenging, teachers! Stop babying them with easy stuff; you are boring them to death and making them hate school!