Are minorities accepted

[Anonymous]

The URM hook adds some interestingness (from the admission office's perspective) to the applicant in the bigger context of holistic admissions. It doesn't mean that URMs admitted to Harvard aren't of sufficient academic strength, even if their scores as a group average a little lower.

The problem for Harvard isn't so much the lower test scores for URMs. It's the lower ratings on the personality scale for Asians within the system by which the college tries to quantify subjective qualities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing how all of these schools are just FULL of students of color and no white people, right?

Students of color face certain barriers in and out of the classroom, even those coming from privilege. White people often want to comfort themselves by pointing to SAT scores in this argument, but we all know quite well that admissions decisions aren't about test scores, but about the whole package.

The data points laid bare for Harvard are a little overblown in my mind. I think the difference for black students was something like 60 SAT points? How that one data point becomes a blanket indicted of all URMs is what is sad.

Here is the actual breakdown, and the data is not even from the last five years and is JUST for Harvard:

Average SAT score across all sections (1995-2013)
Asians - 767
White - 745
Hispanic - 718
Native Americans - 712
African Americans - 704

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

What is frustrating to me as an African American person with a kid at an Ivy is why aren't people asking why this disparity exists and dealing with it. I can tell you from my recent experience that the cohort of black students are not all poor, under-resourced students. Many come from two-parent households with decent incomes and the whole nine-yards of support you would expect from high-achieving students. Why aren't we asking more sophisticated questions instead of reducing students down to a single data-point?

Also too the numbers of URM students, especially black students is pretty small. I don't understand how a single test score make you unworthy of attending these schools. My kid is excelling in college and had admission test scores in the middle 50%.

60 x 2 is 120 points. That is substantial

So what is an acceptable margin to you. See my point is that we are reducing students to a specific test number and then at the same time complaining about too much testing at the elementary through high school levels. Also let's note white kids are behind Asians too, what about them?

Also are you ok with schools shutting out URMs from top college because of a test score? What happens to those who are shut out and unable to reach their full potential? Have you thought about that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The URM hook adds some interestingness (from the admission office's perspective) to the applicant in the bigger context of holistic admissions. It doesn't mean that URMs admitted to Harvard aren't of sufficient academic strength, even if their scores as a group average a little lower.

The problem for Harvard isn't so much the lower test scores for URMs. It's the lower ratings on the personality scale for Asians within the system by which the college tries to quantify subjective qualities.

I'm black and I 100% agree with you. The stereotyping of Asians in this process is disgusting to me. What amazes me is that based on what has happened to black people in this country why would any group deemed as "other" think they are immune to to bias and stereotyping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:into colleges more easily than non-minorities? I thought that was a myth.

My high school age child is black and Hispanic, do colleges cut some slack if your GPA and SATs are ok but not great.

Serious question. Thanks.

There is a frequently posted Harvard Crimson article showing the differences in incoming students’ SAT scores by race. Google it. You will get cut some slack by being an under-represented minority (black, Hispanic, or Native American).

I can only go by my experience 20 years ago. As an AA student at a top 20 school, many of my friends were in high school magnet programs, GT, programs private schools etc. There were some that were valedictorian or within top 5 of their school and some that were in the top x% of the school. No one was an average student in high school.

Personally, I am not raising my daughter to assume there is any slack. There is just too much competition out there for college admissions and the top schools are recruiting not just from the US but internationally.

THIS!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:into colleges more easily than non-minorities? I thought that was a myth.

My high school age child is black and Hispanic, do colleges cut some slack if your GPA and SATs are ok but not great.

Serious question. Thanks.

De donde sois?

Cuentanos un poco la historia de vuestro hijo o hija, y quiza podemos ayudar.

Thanks for the opinions and feedback, I'm the OP. We are not low income although we are minorities (our parents were though!) I doubt we will even qualify for financial aid. I don't even care if he goes to a top school, I just want him to go to a college, study something and enjoy his college years. Unfortunately he has a disability so school is hard for him I'm hopeful he can get into a state college or any college and him being a minority didn't really cross my mind as being helpful, his counselor is only interested in the high flyers at the school.

Everyone is so distracted by the race piece ( I know, that was your question) and disregarding the disability piece. Do you ever get the feeling that the disability gets somewhat ignored because of his race? Because that would not surprise me at all. You want to pay a lot of attention to the school's responsiveness to accommodations/supports for sure. There are also some schools (can't think of which, it's been awhile) that have chosen to make supports/programs for students with disabilities a focus, as opposed to something they are just supposed to do. And a college, I think in NE states (maybe New Hampshire but that's like 15% certainty on my part) I read about some time ago that was specifically established for college kids with learning disabilities. You didn't say what year in high school your kid is, but if there is an IEP make sure very strong and specific language is put in it re: transition planning including high quality college guidance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is largely a myth. And depends on what college.

More relevant question: Is your child attending an under-resourced high school with a high poverty rate? Doing relatively well despite that disadvantage? Will they be the generation to go to college in your family?

A student with somewhat lower standardized test score but strong grades, outstanding rec letters may still be admitted at some more selective colleges.

Except that it's not. The fact is that you are at a disadvantage if you are Asian, and you have a clear advantage if you are Black or Hispanic.

Repeating something untrue won’t make it true.

You are not familiar with the data produced in the Harvard lawsuit? There are loads of news articles.

Based only on scores alone. Do you not understand holistic admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is largely a myth. And depends on what college.

More relevant question: Is your child attending an under-resourced high school with a high poverty rate? Doing relatively well despite that disadvantage? Will they be the generation to go to college in your family?

A student with somewhat lower standardized test score but strong grades, outstanding rec letters may still be admitted at some more selective colleges.

Except that it's not. The fact is that you are at a disadvantage if you are Asian, and you have a clear advantage if you are Black or Hispanic.

Repeating something untrue won’t make it true.

You are not familiar with the data produced in the Harvard lawsuit? There are loads of news articles.

Based only on scores alone. Do you not understand holistic admissions?

In Harvard's holistic system, the personality index disadvantaged Asian applicants.

[Anonymous]

It’s not as easy as you’d think. My dd is white. Her boyfriend is black. They attend different schools in the same county. She has a 1500 SAT and a 4.2 weighted GPA. He has an 1180 SAT and a 3.9 weighted GPA. She had a few clubs and one year of a part time job as her only ECs, and he had student government, sports, robotics, job, etc. My husband and I both went to college, he has a single mother who did one year of community college. We have a reasonable income, he has a low income. They each had what I considered to be a good selection of safeties, reaches and matches for their stats. She got in everywhere she applied. He got into one safety only. All the things people say should have given him an advantage did not. I think the lower test scores were a big hit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

actually I look at the harvard course choices from 30 years ago and those from this year, now that I am looking for my child, and I see way more "pre-AP", intro-type courses that last up to the entire first 2 years compared to those available when I was there - they have clearly made a whole new "underclass" track for getting degrees compared to the academic track that use to be there; after I saw this, I am seriously wondering if it is even worth it or desirable to send my kid there, it seems to have lost most of it "academic mojo" recently

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

actually I look at the harvard course choices from 30 years ago and those from this year, now that I am looking for my child, and I see way more "pre-AP", intro-type courses that last up to the entire first 2 years compared to those available when I was there - they have clearly made a whole new "underclass" track for getting degrees compared to the academic track that use to be there; after I saw this, I am seriously wondering if it is even worth it or desirable to send my kid there, it seems to have lost most of it "academic mojo" recently

Using SAT scores to explain this doesn't work. I went to another Ivy and my brother went to Harvard in the 1990s before the SAT was changed. The majority of kids that got into Ivys were in the 90+% (1300+) and not that many people scored in the 99% anywhere in the US compared to the present. 1300 was considered a great score, which is equivalent to 1400 now. See historical data: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED351352.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

actually I look at the harvard course choices from 30 years ago and those from this year, now that I am looking for my child, and I see way more "pre-AP", intro-type courses that last up to the entire first 2 years compared to those available when I was there - they have clearly made a whole new "underclass" track for getting degrees compared to the academic track that use to be there; after I saw this, I am seriously wondering if it is even worth it or desirable to send my kid there, it seems to have lost most of it "academic mojo" recently

I taught at a top 10 university that also added similar courses. Students with high SAT scores in math were still underprepared, which says more about the decline of education at the high school level than intellect/ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

actually I look at the harvard course choices from 30 years ago and those from this year, now that I am looking for my child, and I see way more "pre-AP", intro-type courses that last up to the entire first 2 years compared to those available when I was there - they have clearly made a whole new "underclass" track for getting degrees compared to the academic track that use to be there; after I saw this, I am seriously wondering if it is even worth it or desirable to send my kid there, it seems to have lost most of it "academic mojo" recently

Sorry to go off topic but which schools were you impressed by and would consider for your child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't see how you can say that it is huge. What this data shows is that the average black student at Harvard has scores that are in the 95th percentile or higher of all test takers (a 1400 is at the 95 percentile and this data would say that the average is 1408). Certainly that indicates that those students are strong test takers against most high school students. And of course a substantial number of the black students are higher than that. So there are a few kids who are otherwise strong applicants who get in with slightly strong test scores than other applicants, but it is not like those kids are getting in with actually low test scores.

+1 95% will do well at Harvard--any race. Discriminating against Asians based on personality is wrong. But let's not act like the gap is the same as someone at the 75% vs 99%.

actually I look at the harvard course choices from 30 years ago and those from this year, now that I am looking for my child, and I see way more "pre-AP", intro-type courses that last up to the entire first 2 years compared to those available when I was there - they have clearly made a whole new "underclass" track for getting degrees compared to the academic track that use to be there; after I saw this, I am seriously wondering if it is even worth it or desirable to send my kid there, it seems to have lost most of it "academic mojo" recently

Sorry to go off topic but which schools were you impressed by and would consider for your child?

2 different answers - impressed by - basically Caltech as a school otherwise I am not impressed by the university anymore just what you studied and if that place was a top 10 for that field - e.g. math at Princeton or cs at CMU

For my kid - well if they are studying engineering or cs or physical sciences I would encourage them to apply by field rather than by ivy pecking order and also though by average SAT score of bottom 25 percent of students pecking order - ie unis with the fewest non-academic admits

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is largely a myth. And depends on what college.

More relevant question: Is your child attending an under-resourced high school with a high poverty rate? Doing relatively well despite that disadvantage? Will they be the generation to go to college in your family?

A student with somewhat lower standardized test score but strong grades, outstanding rec letters may still be admitted at some more selective colleges.

It is not a myth. Yes, the highest qualified students of color are admitted to the most elite universities. From there down, the other colleges must also create diverse classes, so at each tier, students of color are admitted to a higher caliber college than what would be indicated by their test scores and GPA.