When should we listen to those small, nagging doubts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can't really point to some specific problem, then it sounds like FOMO. But you can't make decisions based on the vague fear that the grass might be greener on the other side.

Your kids are likely in reading and math groups, which are based on ability. So there are other kids who are also "above grade level" or whatever. Ask your kids what they are working on--what books did they read, what did they write about, what are they doing in math. Ask them what they did that day that was hard for them. Are there assignments that let kids stretch themselves regardless of ability? This would include things like open-ended writing assignments, or optional math problems that are more difficult, or creative projects that synthesize different areas (drawing a map of an imaginary place, for example).

The only thing that would really concern me would be behavioral issues that meant that the teacher didn't have the ability to really teach because he or she was constantly managing some kid(s) disruptions. Barring that, there will be a range of abilities in any classroom, and a good teacher will find ways to challenge all the kids, at least sometimes.

NP here but I very much relate to the question the OP raised. The problem I have is that, other than attending school myself ages ago, I don't have much background or knowledge about what they should be reading and doing in math. I mean, in 3rd grade they should be able to do long division and big number multiplication, right? By second grade they should be able to right a simple story? Periodic table in ... maybe 5th grade? There, that's all I can remember. How would I know that my kids' grammar/math/science/writing is up to snuff, without uprooting them and putting them in another school.

I find the OP's question frustrating because of the assumption that the OP's kids cannot get a good education at the school in question. I have a child in a school that sounds similar to the OP's description. My child is in 3rd grade. How do you know how your child is doing in school? You go to parent teacher conferences and stay in touch with the teacher about how your child is doing. Your teacher can tell you what is "grade level" for the various things you want to know about. It doesn't sound like you actually know enough about elementary education to assess whether a SCHOOL is any good at all.

If the parcc scores show that 2/3 of third graders aren’t at grade level then assume your kid is not getting a good education. Unless you kid also scored low on PARCCC. Kids above grade level at low performing schools always get lost in the shuffle. No teacher wants or is a law to do that much differentiation.

I actually disagree with that. I think that PARCC isn't a good test. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks this. I have worked in schools and have been involved with my child's school and understand that they use a variety of assessments to determine how children are performing. Education does not hang solely on PARCC results, which in any case would only apply to children who are 3rd grade and above. Is your suggestion that the OP simply wait and see if her child is doing well until she sees PARCC scores for her child's class?

I think that your post is filled with a lot of assumptions that cannot be taken as fact. Kids above grade level "always" get lost in the shuffle? No teacher wants or is allowed to provide differentiated learning? What school are you talking about specifically? My child's teachers from K-3 have been able to provide differentiation in the classroom just fine.

Let's examine this statement. Citywide, 31% of 3rd graders were "at grade level" on PARCC (4+) in ELA last year. 41% in math. Of the 130 schools with a 3rd grade, only ten had 2/3 or more of students at grade level in PARCC in ELA. PARCC can't be used as the sole measure of how a school is doing and/or how one individual student is doing.

Two-thirds of DCPS high school graduates are functionally illiterate and innumerate. Looks like the PARCC scores are pretty accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can't really point to some specific problem, then it sounds like FOMO. But you can't make decisions based on the vague fear that the grass might be greener on the other side.

Your kids are likely in reading and math groups, which are based on ability. So there are other kids who are also "above grade level" or whatever. Ask your kids what they are working on--what books did they read, what did they write about, what are they doing in math. Ask them what they did that day that was hard for them. Are there assignments that let kids stretch themselves regardless of ability? This would include things like open-ended writing assignments, or optional math problems that are more difficult, or creative projects that synthesize different areas (drawing a map of an imaginary place, for example).

The only thing that would really concern me would be behavioral issues that meant that the teacher didn't have the ability to really teach because he or she was constantly managing some kid(s) disruptions. Barring that, there will be a range of abilities in any classroom, and a good teacher will find ways to challenge all the kids, at least sometimes.

NP here but I very much relate to the question the OP raised. The problem I have is that, other than attending school myself ages ago, I don't have much background or knowledge about what they should be reading and doing in math. I mean, in 3rd grade they should be able to do long division and big number multiplication, right? By second grade they should be able to right a simple story? Periodic table in ... maybe 5th grade? There, that's all I can remember. How would I know that my kids' grammar/math/science/writing is up to snuff, without uprooting them and putting them in another school.

I find the OP's question frustrating because of the assumption that the OP's kids cannot get a good education at the school in question. I have a child in a school that sounds similar to the OP's description. My child is in 3rd grade. How do you know how your child is doing in school? You go to parent teacher conferences and stay in touch with the teacher about how your child is doing. Your teacher can tell you what is "grade level" for the various things you want to know about. It doesn't sound like you actually know enough about elementary education to assess whether a SCHOOL is any good at all.

If the parcc scores show that 2/3 of third graders aren’t at grade level then assume your kid is not getting a good education. Unless you kid also scored low on PARCCC. Kids above grade level at low performing schools always get lost in the shuffle. No teacher wants or is a law to do that much differentiation.

I actually disagree with that. I think that PARCC isn't a good test. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks this. I have worked in schools and have been involved with my child's school and understand that they use a variety of assessments to determine how children are performing. Education does not hang solely on PARCC results, which in any case would only apply to children who are 3rd grade and above. Is your suggestion that the OP simply wait and see if her child is doing well until she sees PARCC scores for her child's class?

I think that your post is filled with a lot of assumptions that cannot be taken as fact. Kids above grade level "always" get lost in the shuffle? No teacher wants or is allowed to provide differentiated learning? What school are you talking about specifically? My child's teachers from K-3 have been able to provide differentiation in the classroom just fine.

Let's examine this statement. Citywide, 31% of 3rd graders were "at grade level" on PARCC (4+) in ELA last year. 41% in math. Of the 130 schools with a 3rd grade, only ten had 2/3 or more of students at grade level in PARCC in ELA. PARCC can't be used as the sole measure of how a school is doing and/or how one individual student is doing.

Two-thirds of DCPS high school graduates are functionally illiterate and innumerate. Looks like the PARCC scores are pretty accurate.

Okay, so what is your solution for how an individual parent should evaluate the quality of the education that their child is getting while attending DCPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our title 1 eotp DCPS has lots of individualization/small groups, and very very capable teachers, so so far our kid is being challenged and working at the top of his potential. so we are happy.

But I really think a lot of it depends on the personality of the kid, not just their intelligence level. The "gentrifier" kids I see thriving at our school are all very outgoing and full of positive energy, in addition to being smart --- I think their outgoingness leads the teacher to see them more clearly and to feel excited to challenge them. I see a lot of shy-er UMC kids being overlooked, and their parents aren't as confident about the school meeting their needs -- maybe these kids would do better in a school where most kids were "above average" and that was the norm..m they wouldn't have to make themselves stand out to be working on advanced material.

In addition to these considerations re: kid's temperament, I'd also look to see how kids that fit your demographic tend to do in the upper grades on PARCC. For example, some schools with lower overall test scores show different results when you look at kids by race/ethnicity, etc. (I think high SES black families will have more trouble discerning how their own kids will do, and perhaps that's why a lot of them don't send their kids to Title 1 schools in the first place, in addition to concerns about peer pressure.) But for "gentrifier" families, looking at PARCC by various breakdowns might be instructive.

[Anonymous]

The doubts only get louder over time. Middle school is the real deal breaker. If you aren't in-bound for Hardy, Stuart Hobson or Deal there is really no path for your child.

[Anonymous]

The only indicator for PARCC at your kid’s school you should look at is the one that matches your demographic by race and class. That’s a sad reality of education in America. If black families with good incomes like yours are still getting bad test scores at your DCPS you should worry. If the white girls like yours at your school aren’t doing worse than top scores don’t worry even if the black boys don’t succeed (unless you care about everyone succeeding-the Q is “where to put your kids,” not how to fix education for all, right?

The issue with PARCC data is that those data are usually unavailable in schools with tiny cohorts of people like you - the gentrifier-desegregating DCPS schools. In these situations I just default back to what I know about my son. He’s a good test taker. And I know the science is that peers of different background won’t drag him down.

[Anonymous]

This hits close to home for me. Our kids were at a title 1 EOTP for a while and are now WOTP. The EOTP school was really stepping up with individualized instruction in early elementary. The principal and teachers were helpful and on board with it. I’m actually not sure they are getting as good of a challenge now. It easier to be comfortable that they aren’t getting a bad education, but the work may not be as challenging as what they were getting.

That probably doesn’t help you with your decision, just another perspective.

[Anonymous]

I would worry about it starting middle school. I was best in my class and missed out years of not having anybody better and smarter in my class. Luckily I got into test-in high school but god those kids were smart and made me try harder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can't really point to some specific problem, then it sounds like FOMO. But you can't make decisions based on the vague fear that the grass might be greener on the other side.

Your kids are likely in reading and math groups, which are based on ability. So there are other kids who are also "above grade level" or whatever. Ask your kids what they are working on--what books did they read, what did they write about, what are they doing in math. Ask them what they did that day that was hard for them. Are there assignments that let kids stretch themselves regardless of ability? This would include things like open-ended writing assignments, or optional math problems that are more difficult, or creative projects that synthesize different areas (drawing a map of an imaginary place, for example).

The only thing that would really concern me would be behavioral issues that meant that the teacher didn't have the ability to really teach because he or she was constantly managing some kid(s) disruptions. Barring that, there will be a range of abilities in any classroom, and a good teacher will find ways to challenge all the kids, at least sometimes.

NP here but I very much relate to the question the OP raised. The problem I have is that, other than attending school myself ages ago, I don't have much background or knowledge about what they should be reading and doing in math. I mean, in 3rd grade they should be able to do long division and big number multiplication, right? By second grade they should be able to right a simple story? Periodic table in ... maybe 5th grade? There, that's all I can remember. How would I know that my kids' grammar/math/science/writing is up to snuff, without uprooting them and putting them in another school.

I find the OP's question frustrating because of the assumption that the OP's kids cannot get a good education at the school in question. I have a child in a school that sounds similar to the OP's description. My child is in 3rd grade. How do you know how your child is doing in school? You go to parent teacher conferences and stay in touch with the teacher about how your child is doing. Your teacher can tell you what is "grade level" for the various things you want to know about. It doesn't sound like you actually know enough about elementary education to assess whether a SCHOOL is any good at all.

If the parcc scores show that 2/3 of third graders aren’t at grade level then assume your kid is not getting a good education. Unless you kid also scored low on PARCCC. Kids above grade level at low performing schools always get lost in the shuffle. No teacher wants or is a law to do that much differentiation.

I actually disagree with that. I think that PARCC isn't a good test. I'm certainly not the only one who thinks this. I have worked in schools and have been involved with my child's school and understand that they use a variety of assessments to determine how children are performing. Education does not hang solely on PARCC results, which in any case would only apply to children who are 3rd grade and above. Is your suggestion that the OP simply wait and see if her child is doing well until she sees PARCC scores for her child's class?

I think that your post is filled with a lot of assumptions that cannot be taken as fact. Kids above grade level "always" get lost in the shuffle? No teacher wants or is allowed to provide differentiated learning? What school are you talking about specifically? My child's teachers from K-3 have been able to provide differentiation in the classroom just fine.

Let's examine this statement. Citywide, 31% of 3rd graders were "at grade level" on PARCC (4+) in ELA last year. 41% in math. Of the 130 schools with a 3rd grade, only ten had 2/3 or more of students at grade level in PARCC in ELA. PARCC can't be used as the sole measure of how a school is doing and/or how one individual student is doing.

Two-thirds of DCPS high school graduates are functionally illiterate and innumerate. Looks like the PARCC scores are pretty accurate.

It's a great line but doesn't seem to be true. How are you measuring functional illiteracy?

If you use level 1 on PARCC (the lowest level), out of 42 high schools, there were 7 with 2/3 or more students at level 1 for ELA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This hits close to home for me. Our kids were at a title 1 EOTP for a while and are now WOTP. The EOTP school was really stepping up with individualized instruction in early elementary. The principal and teachers were helpful and on board with it. I’m actually not sure they are getting as good of a challenge now. It easier to be comfortable that they aren’t getting a bad education, but the work may not be as challenging as what they were getting.

That probably doesn’t help you with your decision, just another perspective.

this is very interesting to him. our son is in a title 1 EOTP now and he gets so much attention from teachers, and special challenging work. we are constantly wondering if we should move to a school with a bigger peer group for him but are hesitant to bc he is thriving. so this data is compelling to me... do you ever regret leaving?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This hits close to home for me. Our kids were at a title 1 EOTP for a while and are now WOTP. The EOTP school was really stepping up with individualized instruction in early elementary. The principal and teachers were helpful and on board with it. I’m actually not sure they are getting as good of a challenge now. It easier to be comfortable that they aren’t getting a bad education, but the work may not be as challenging as what they were getting.

That probably doesn’t help you with your decision, just another perspective.

Do you mind sharing which school you were at EOTP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This hits close to home for me. Our kids were at a title 1 EOTP for a while and are now WOTP. The EOTP school was really stepping up with individualized instruction in early elementary. The principal and teachers were helpful and on board with it. I’m actually not sure they are getting as good of a challenge now. It easier to be comfortable that they aren’t getting a bad education, but the work may not be as challenging as what they were getting.

That probably doesn’t help you with your decision, just another perspective.

this is very interesting to him. our son is in a title 1 EOTP now and he gets so much attention from teachers, and special challenging work. we are constantly wondering if we should move to a school with a bigger peer group for him but are hesitant to bc he is thriving. so this data is compelling to me... do you ever regret leaving?

I do have regrets, but it’s very hard to know.

In the EOTP school, that individualized instruction took a big hit during PARCC testing, which is about a month or more. I can’t really know if the admin worked out a way around that or how big the impact would have been. I also don’t know if the WOTP school is going to step it up more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our title 1 eotp DCPS has lots of individualization/small groups, and very very capable teachers, so so far our kid is being challenged and working at the top of his potential. so we are happy.

But I really think a lot of it depends on the personality of the kid, not just their intelligence level. The "gentrifier" kids I see thriving at our school are all very outgoing and full of positive energy, in addition to being smart --- I think their outgoingness leads the teacher to see them more clearly and to feel excited to challenge them. I see a lot of shy-er UMC kids being overlooked, and their parents aren't as confident about the school meeting their needs -- maybe these kids would do better in a school where most kids were "above average" and that was the norm..m they wouldn't have to make themselves stand out to be working on advanced material.

In addition to these considerations re: kid's temperament, I'd also look to see how kids that fit your demographic tend to do in the upper grades on PARCC. For example, some schools with lower overall test scores show different results when you look at kids by race/ethnicity, etc. (I think high SES black families will have more trouble discerning how their own kids will do, and perhaps that's why a lot of them don't send their kids to Title 1 schools in the first place, in addition to concerns about peer pressure.) But for "gentrifier" families, looking at PARCC by various breakdowns might be instructive.

I also agree that the kid’s temperament matters a lot. I was a kid who never wanted to stand out. I was a little bit socially awkward to begin with, so I positioned myself so that I was never singled out as the “smartest” kid. It meant that at my local neighborhood public school, I just didn’t ever talk in math class or do the extra assignments, because I was so afraid of being singled out. I made sure I presented at roughly the 75%ile for everything; never drew a teacher’s ire, always an after thought on the list of good students and never the star. Especially because it was math and, true to stereotype, every other kid who seemed good at it was a boy. It wasn’t until we did these city wide math team challenge type things in 5th grade that my teachers were like, holy shit, she is really good at math. My parents then made every effort to get me into a more selective school. Luckily I tested into a magnet where I promptly positioned myself at the 75%ile. It was until 10th grade when I started doing really well at an EC and enjoying it that I started to get over the fear. If I had been at a T1 equivalent, it would have been a disaster and I guarantee I would have skated along with 3s or 4s on PARCC.

My brother on the other hand? Similar in terms of sheer academic ability but a huge people pleaser who thrives off of teachers loving him. He was the super star at our local school and would have been absolutely fine at a Title 1; might have actually done better there because he would have gotten even more positive feedback in every subject rather than having some challengers in a few. He stayed in neighborhood public schools for middle school because he wanted to and my parents weren’t concerned at all about his performance. Truthfully, I think he would have gotten into any college he wanted from any school in the city; he’s just that type: valedictorian, every teacher’s favorite, class president, standout in two ECs, very popular with peers,
etc.

I hope my kids take after my brother

[Anonymous]

My son is at a school like you describe, second grade. I was just reading the notes on his report card and feeling even more confident about the education he's getting. He has always been above grade level in both ELA and math, and he alternates between them in complaining about what's too hard. He's always had a small cohort at his level, competing for who's ahead in Lexia, etc. The report card notes spell out the skills the class has worked on and will be working on, what he has specifically mastered, skills he enjoys, and what he could use a little more work on (not because he isn't ready to move along, but to reinforce a stronger foundation).

We haven't pulled him out for advanced work in another class because socially he's not ready, but the teachers have described the ways they differentiate and how he engages in class. They tell me when he's acting out from boredom, and teachers he's had before will share their successful methods to keep him focused. He can get lazy with his work, but when he does well they reward him with responsibility, which is a big motivator. The third grade teachers already know him and are excited to have him next year.

I'm familiar with the FOMO but all of these other factors far outweigh it.

[Anonymous]

I'm really feeling this now that DC is in 6th at a HRCS. DC is so bright, so capable of stepping up to the plate academically, yet his school is playing academic softball.

Example: DC is a voracious reader with a large vocabulary, yet the school is "teaching" vocab words he's used for years.

Sadly, I guess that's what I should expect from a school with so many kids with sub-4 PARCC scores and a mindset that says kids 2 years behind and 2 years ahead should be thrown together and taught the same lessons.

[Anonymous]

We stayed in a title 1 school for DC1 until after K, and for DC2 only until PK4.

For DC1, something just felt off, and I could not name what it was. DC1 fit in well socially and loved the school. We got a lottery spot west of the park and took it. And two years later, in 2nd grade, finally figured out DC1 had a learning disability and ADHD. I honestly think it was little masked at the Title 1 school (although DC1 was certainly very young and it did not become something that stood out as a problem for two more years), and I also felt there were LOTS of kids with bigger issues who frankly deserved more attention than DC1.

For DC2, part of it was simply wanting both kids to be at the same place for drop off and pick up. DC2 was even more socially integrated into the school. I thought it would harder to move them if we waiting another year.

Most of the other people peeled off after first grade, but the last holdout left at third grade.