Why Do We Keep Pushing Four Year Colleges for All Students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

I don't understand this attitude/POV. If a kid is keen on welding (as an example), why not encourage a year or two of specialized training/apprenticeship and spend the money on tools and starting a business. What can you learn in college that is specific to welding? Unless your kid wants to study metallurgy and is willing to grapple with physical chemistry, material science, operations research, basic physics and statistics etc., in which case go to college.

The simple question that every student should ask every day is what am I learning and how can I use it to do what I want to do? If you can't answer that you don't belong in college. If your parents want you to attend college regardless, then enjoy the beer and co-eds, but it's a waste.

[Anonymous]

Because there is a big difference in outcomes between kids of similar backgrounds who finish a four-year degree and those with "some college."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because there is a big difference in outcomes between kids of similar backgrounds who finish a four-year degree and those with "some college."

Stats, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's a lot of discussion and innovation concerned with the "value of a four year college education". See Mitch Daniels at Purdue who is laser focused on providing measurable value to students (and has maintained tuition at the same level for the past seven years). One issue is that high school students are not well prepared for college - a focus on higher, measurable, standards for HS graduation, and improved career guidance, could help students and families assess their readiness, ambition and interest for college. It's been said that "college is not the place to find yourself" - unless of course you have plenty of time and money. When plumbers, iron workers, large equipment operators, electricians, HVAC/Gas can earn $60,000/yr after a training program post HS, for a lot of kids it makes sense. If you can work up to running a few crews, invest in property, work hard, you can make more than most "white collar" guys - and if it's your thing you will have more fun. Showing students a broad range of employment paths is important. The WaPo highlights local entrepreneurs each week and it's fun to read about how people found their niche.

Some other resources -

https://www.nas.org/articles/one_hundred_great_ideas_for_higher_education

Watch The Case Against Education - Bryan Caplan Professor at George Mason : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZylJp-pHo HIGHLY RECOMMENDED

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertfarrington/2014/11/10/5-proud-alternatives-to-going-to-college/#212f00da354e


As Mark Twain said: "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education".

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Being an educated person is a good thing

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to argue with those who see no value in an education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because the manufacturing sector/path to middle class disappeared

Actually, this is completely untrue.

MOST jobs of the future will NOT require a college degree. There is a massive trade shortage. Right now, we are starting our tradespeople off at $55K/year. Problem is, we (along with pretty much every other company) have a tough time finding people to fill these roles.

Here's a video that does a great job explaining the "new" economy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs6nQpVI164

Every single parent and high school student should see this. (It's nine and a half minutes.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We don't need to start tracking kids as young as middle school but by the high school, that fair. Trades needs to be presented as a real option. We also need more options for post secondary education. We should bring back AA/AS as a real degree not just as a stepping stone to a BA/BS. An Associates can be a kind of white collar vocational training degree for paralegals, residential real estate, small business/property management, etc. It would teach people what they need to know for a specific job. There should also be an option for European style 3 year undergrad degree in a specific field. Students can either choose that or traditional American undergrad format.

There are multiple avenues for success- higher education should reflect that.

Agreed. Tracking as early as middle school means that a kid's future ability to attend universiry is determined by his or her performance in elwmentary school which is absurd. A lot of kids who are not great students in elementary end up being great students later on (& vice versa).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We don't need to start tracking kids as young as middle school but by the high school, that fair. Trades needs to be presented as a real option. We also need more options for post secondary education. We should bring back AA/AS as a real degree not just as a stepping stone to a BA/BS. An Associates can be a kind of white collar vocational training degree for paralegals, residential real estate, small business/property management, etc. It would teach people what they need to know for a specific job. There should also be an option for European style 3 year undergrad degree in a specific field. Students can either choose that or traditional American undergrad format.

There are multiple avenues for success- higher education should reflect that.

Agreed. Tracking as early as middle school means that a kid's future ability to attend universiry is determined by his or her performance in elwmentary school which is absurd. A lot of kids who are not great students in elementary end up being great students later on (& vice versa).

Again, zero stats, my friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Being an educated person is a good thing

Of course it is. Sending unprepared students to college who, statistically, will drop out leaving them with no education and no skills to be applied to the job market when there are extremely valuable alternatives available is pretty much the opposite of "educated."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not going to argue with those who see no value in an education.

And I *shouldn't* be arguing with someone who has no concept of the most basic economics, but here goes.

Right now we're pushing people into college, and debt, who would be better off not going. The six year graduation rate is 59% overall. At open admission colleges (where most of these folks will go when pushed), the rate is 32% vs 88% at selective colleges. (NCES.ed.gov) This means a lot of people are putting money into degrees they won't finish and that the education system is over built (and therefore more costly) than it needs to be.

Think what would it would mean if magic happened and suddenly everyone was a college graduate. Would everyone suddenly be making above average incomes? Nope, you'd have college educated burger flippers and pay for higher paid professions would drop due to market saturation. A country where everyone goes to college and gets a degree would be so mind bogglingly disastrous, and is extremely contrary to even the most basic economic principles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Being an educated person is a good thing

Of course it is. Sending unprepared students to college who, statistically, will drop out leaving them with no education and no skills to be applied to the job market when there are extremely valuable alternatives available is pretty much the opposite of "educated."

Bingo. I work at a high school that likes to tout it's "over 95% of our class goes to college!!!!!" stat.

Here's what happens to most of our students. They graduate from high school, barely, and go on to the local community college which has open enrollment with no SAT/ACT required.

They spend, if they stick to it, between 2 and 4 years at the CC taking remedial classes, and running up debt.

A very small number will be successful enough in remediation to start taking regular college classes where some will be successful and others not.

Those that stopped at the remediation classes will always be able to say they "went to college."

There is a real need for skilled tradespeople and other vocational paths and it's imperative that students be aware of that.

[Anonymous]

I agree that college is completely inappropriate for many students. Fortunately, I think a lot of graduates are finally taking notice that college is not the only way to be successful in today's world. What has worked for generations past is not always going to work for the future. Our world is moving towards a forth industrial revolution that is going to require new and different ways of gaining the education and training necessary to perform the jobs present and those jobs that have not even been invented yet. Traditional college is not and has not been for some time the only way to succeed in this thing we call life. My son gained his Mechatronics degree through high school and Technical college and has since been employed as a robotics technician since making a really good living - $66K/year as a 25-year old. He also is being trained,(more school,) at his place of employment. He is but one example of what I am speaking of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

I don't understand this attitude/POV. If a kid is keen on welding (as an example), why not encourage a year or two of specialized training/apprenticeship and spend the money on tools and starting a business. What can you learn in college that is specific to welding? Unless your kid wants to study metallurgy and is willing to grapple with physical chemistry, material science, operations research, basic physics and statistics etc., in which case go to college.

The simple question that every student should ask every day is what am I learning and how can I use it to do what I want to do? If you can't answer that you don't belong in college. If your parents want you to attend college regardless, then enjoy the beer and co-eds, but it's a waste.

I'm not the PP you are responding to here, but I share PP's "attitude" on the value add of a college education. And the best answer I have to offer here is simply that a college education is not[i] a trade school. And that is where we differ, I think.
In my view, a college education it exposes you (at least in the US college system--first couple of years before you narrow in on courses that are designed to focus in on your degree field) to a whole world of theories, ideas, philosophers, how to think about a problem and consider various points of view, broad grasp of history, the poetry of writing/literature, art history/appreciation, basic psychology of human thought and evolution...all things that many people view as valuable to being an informed and enlightened person in the world. It's just cool to KNOW stuff and makes you a tad more interesting to talk to because when you have opinions, it is now based on something other than your own personal experience--whether or not you "use" what you learn in college to earn a living is irrelevant to why my family supports getting a college education. It just makes you a more well-rounded person with a greater depth of understanding about the world in which we live.
Plus...you'll totally beat your friends at Jeopardy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think people like the idea of someone's future being narrowed down for them while they are in their teens.

This. My kids are going to college, absolutely. We value higher education. After college they can become anything they want. They can become a welder, electrician, plumber, an entrepreneur ... anything. I'm paying for college. If you can do this as a parent, it would be foolish not to.

I don't understand this attitude/POV. If a kid is keen on welding (as an example), why not encourage a year or two of specialized training/apprenticeship and spend the money on tools and starting a business. What can you learn in college that is specific to welding? Unless your kid wants to study metallurgy and is willing to grapple with physical chemistry, material science, operations research, basic physics and statistics etc., in which case go to college.

The simple question that every student should ask every day is what am I learning and how can I use it to do what I want to do? If you can't answer that you don't belong in college. If your parents want you to attend college regardless, then enjoy the beer and co-eds, but it's a waste.

I'm not the PP you are responding to here, but I share PP's "attitude" on the value add of a college education. And the best answer I have to offer here is simply that a college education is not[i] a trade school. And that is where we differ, I think.
In my view, a college education it exposes you (at least in the US college system--first couple of years before you narrow in on courses that are designed to focus in on your degree field) to a whole world of theories, ideas, philosophers, how to think about a problem and consider various points of view, broad grasp of history, the poetry of writing/literature, art history/appreciation, basic psychology of human thought and evolution...all things that many people view as valuable to being an informed and enlightened person in the world. It's just cool to KNOW stuff and makes you a tad more interesting to talk to because when you have opinions, it is now based on something other than your own personal experience--whether or not you "use" what you learn in college to earn a living is irrelevant to why my family supports getting a college education. It just makes you a more well-rounded person with a greater depth of understanding about the world in which we live.
Plus...you'll totally beat your friends at Jeopardy.

That's all fine and dandy except you forget that college costs money. Going into thousands of dollars of debt just to beat your friends at jeopardy and become enlightened is just not something we should be supporting.